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#19752 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:31 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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I agree that there are covenant curses and blessings. The reprobate are cursed.

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RonD said,

I would argue that all things work to the bad for those who hate God and are not called according to his purpose.

This is a cute one laugh except that the reprobate IMO are called according to His purpose:

Quote
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#19753 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:23 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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J_Edwards said:
I agree that there are covenant curses and blessings. The reprobate are cursed.

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RonD said,

I would argue that all things work to the bad for those who hate God and are not called according to his purpose.

This is a cute one <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> except that the reprobate IMO are called according to His purpose:

Quote
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


This is to equivocate over the word "purpose". The verse I referenced has to do with the purpose of blessing and glory. Moreover, in the context of this discussion, reprobates do not receive blessings or grace, just goodness. There is a difference that is profound. I'm delighted to see that you agree that God in his wisdom has ordained the reprobate to his final end.

Blessings,

Ron

#19754 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:05 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  

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Rom 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (KJV)


Longsuffering is what I call it. While I think the reprobate receive benefits from God and the elect, they do so to their own destruction.


God bless,

william

#19755 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:30 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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Moreover, in the context of this discussion, reprobates do not receive blessings or grace, just goodness.


Do you agree that reprobates receive common grace or are you using the term goodness instead of common grace (I prefer Murray on Common Grace, but...)? In addition, the reprobates are called to/for a purpose, and I do not think this should be lost in our evaluation of the matter at hand.


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#19756 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:02 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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J_Edwards said:
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Moreover, in the context of this discussion, reprobates do not receive blessings or grace, just goodness.


Do you agree that reprobates receive common grace or are you using the term goodness instead of common grace (I prefer Murray on Common Grace, but...)? In addition, the reprobates are called to/for a purpose, and I do not think this should be lost in our evaluation of the matter at hand.


I don't particularly care for the term "common grace" in the context of reprobation, if for no other reason I don't think that God's favor rests upon reprobates. Yes indeedy!, God has a purpose for the reprobate, which is to his glory and the good of the elect.

Kindly,

Ron

#19757 - Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:49 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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Ron D said:

I don't particularly care for the term "common grace" in the context of reprobation, if for no other reason I don't think that God's favor rests upon reprobates. Yes indeedy!, God has a purpose for the reprobate, which is to his glory and the good of the elect.

Kindly,

Ron


OH, I do not think God's favor rests on them either. My understanding of Common Grace is more like the common earthly gifts (rain, wealth, etc.) that God gives the ungodly, not a favorable attitude of God toward them. Common grace is 'favors', not favor. God's attitude toward the reprobate is hatred (Psa 5:5). However as Murray states, "It is proper, therefore, to say that the enjoyment of certain benefits, even by the non-elect and reprobate, falls within the design of the death of Christ."


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#19758 - Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:10 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  

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Soli Deo Gloria said:
Ted, thanks for the scripture. I would encourage you to look at all of those verses in context and in light of what all other scripture reveals. I would say that all of the scripture given, in context, does not affirm Christs death for all(every individual). I would love to see you exegete any one of them.


Soli, in the words of Louis Gossett, Jr.'s character in the movie, An Officer and a Gentleman, "Where ya' been all your life? Listenin' to rock 'n roll music and bad mouthin' yer country?"

Get out yer spectacles (that's "glasses" for you young folks!) an' follow along wit' me:

In the 2Corinthians 5 verses, the Apostle is 'splainin' 'bout Christ's love for "all," having died (on the cross) for "all" "on their behalf." Now, you and I, bein' Calvinists, KNOW that the Apostle weren't talkin' 'bout some weak-kneed "offer" to all. And we know that the Apostle wasn't talkin' 'bout Jesus savin' EVERYONE, so . . . . . the Apostle MUST be talkin' about something -- in a general way -- that's come to "all" as a result of Christ's death on the cross. "Common grace," as you most graciously agreed with my earlier post!

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

Ditto for the 1Timothy 2 passage of scripture.

Furthermore, may I add another passage of Holy Scripture to the mix? Ephesians 4:7. Let's look at it in context . . . .

Ephesians 4:1-7 (ESV):
<sup>1</sup>I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, <sup>2</sup>with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, <sup>3</sup>eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. <sup>4</sup>There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- <sup>5</sup>one Lord, one faith, one baptism, <sup>6</sup>one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. <sup>7</sup>But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. <sup>8</sup>Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

"Grace," my boy or -- if I may so boldly "exegete" -- "Common grace," was "given to each of us" through "Christ's gift" on the cross. Amen? (I say it for you, "Amen!")

Jestfully, yet respectfully, submitted with Christ's love (and seeking YOUR grace!),
Ted

#19759 - Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:18 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  

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Thanks Ted!
Its good to see we agree that these verses do not teach a general redemption. But I am not so sure they are talking about "common grace."
In 1 cor 5:14-15 the "all" is not referring to all mankind in a general way but all his people or sheep.

And like the 1599 Geneva Study bible says
Quote
Eph4:7 (5) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the f gift of Christ.

(5) He teaches us that we indeed are all one body, and that all good gifts proceed from Christ alone, who reigns in heaven having mightily conquered all his enemies, from where he heaps all gifts upon his Church. But yet nonetheless these gifts are differently and variously divided according to his will and pleasure, and therefore every man ought to be content with that measure that God has given him, and to bestow it to the common profit of the whole body.
(f) Which Christ has given.


The gifts given are to Christs body or the church.

#19760 - Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:07 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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Quote
Ted said:
In the 2Corinthians 5 verses, the Apostle is 'splainin' 'bout Christ's love for "all," having died (on the cross) for "all" "on their behalf." Now, you and I, bein' Calvinists, KNOW that the Apostle weren't talkin' 'bout some weak-kneed "offer" to all. And we know that the Apostle wasn't talkin' 'bout Jesus savin' EVERYONE, so . . . . . the Apostle MUST be talkin' about something -- in a general way -- that's come to "all" as a result of Christ's death on the cross. "Common grace," as you most graciously agreed with my earlier post!

I don't think so, Ted! grin To iterate my position, I do NOT think that it is proper to speak of Christ dying for all, due to the fact that in most every instance where the word for is used in the context of redemption, specifically in reference to the atonement, it has the connotation of "in behalf of", i.e., substitution. Scripture simply won't allow me to speak, therefore, of Christ's death having been for (in behalf of) all, i.e., in any way. Yes, there are residual benefits that flow from those who are recipients of that atonement, but there are none that come directly from it to the non-elect, IMHO. I think Ron made this point also.

Okay.... now on to the text of 2Cor 5:15:


2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (ASV) "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again."



First, the context of this passage is rightly seen in its overall context which is that Paul is not speaking of a relationship of Christ to all men but of Christ's relationship to His Church. Secondly, I would establish that the death of Christ, as described here, is undeniably one of "substitution" and not one merely of which expresses the love of God or any other such notion. The result of "one died" is that "all died"; because "A", therefore "B". There is a direct relationship between Christ's death and the "all died". Can it be said that those "all" (all without exception) for whom Christ died also died? Thirdly, there is also included a purpose in Christ's death which is that those for whom He died should no longer live unto themselves but unto Him. So likewise, can it be said that those for whom Christ died (all without exception) no longer live unto themselves but unto Him?

If one wishes to submit that the "all" used in this passage is indeed referring to every man, woman and child without exception, then one is forced to embrace Universalism; all men inclusively are saved. On the other hand, if one wishes to make the "for" to mean something other than substitutionary, then one is forced to embrace some form of synergism. In this case, Christ's death didn't actually secure anything other than the possibility of one being saved if they will do xxxxx.

Conclusion, the "all" in this passage is referring to the elect of God; the believers or those who will come to faith, in Christ. The atonement of Christ is not being dealt with in some general terms, but specifically with the end result that it brought about the death of all those for whom it was intended (efficient) and a new life which is focused upon living for the LORD Jesus Christ and not as it was beforehand; self-centered.

In His Grace,


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#19761 - Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:36 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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I think we agree over our theology. I just don't think that "grace" is the happiest of terms. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

Ron

#19762 - Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:24 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  

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Well said Pilgrim!

#19763 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:39 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Please forgive me for misusing the 2Corinthians 5 passages to support "common grace."

As for what Jonathan Edwards wrote regarding "Christ died in a general way for all," I STILL think that he was referring to "common grace."

John Murray wrote:
Quote

Unregenerate men receive operations and influences of the Spirit in connection with the administration of the gospel, influences that result in experience of the power and glory of the gospel, yet influences which do not issue in genuine and lasting conversion and are finally withdrawn.


Louis Berkoff wrote:
Quote

Reformed theologians generally hesitate to say that Christ by His atoning blood merited these blessings for the impenitent and reprobate. At the same time they do believe that important natural benefits accrue to the whole human race from the death of Christ, and that in these benefits the unbelieving, the impenitent, and the reprobate also share. In every covenant transaction recorded in Scripture it appears that the covenant of grace carries with it not only spiritual but also material blessings, and those material blessings are generally of such a kind that they are naturally shared also by unbelievers. Says Cunningham: "Many blessings flow to mankind at large from the death of Christ, collaterally and incidentally, in consequence of the relation in which men, viewed collectively, stand to each other." And it is but natural that this should be so. If Christ was to save an elect race, gradually called out of the world of humanity in the course of centuries, it became necessary for God to exercise forbearance, to check the course of evil, to promote the development of the natural powers of man, to keep alive within the hearts of men a desire for civil righteousness, for external morality and good order in society, and to shower untold blessings upon mankind in general. Dr. Hodge expresses it thus: "It is very plain that any plan designed to secure the salvation of an elect portion of a race propagated by generation and living in association, as is the case with mankind, cannot secure its end without greatly affecting, for better or for worse, the character and destiny of all the rest of the race not elected." He quotes Dr. Candlish to the effect that "the entire history of the human race, from the apostasy to the final judgment, is a dispensation of forbearance in respect to the reprobate, in which many blessings, physical and moral, affecting their characters and destinies forever, accrue even to the heathen, and many more to the educated and refined citizens of Christian communities. These come to them through the mediation of Christ, and coming to them now, must have been designed for them from the beginning." These general blessings of mankind, indirectly resulting from the atoning work of Christ, were not only foreseen by God, but designed by Him as blessings for all concerned. It is perfectly true, of course, that the design of God in the work of Christ pertained primarily and directly, not to the temporal well-being of men in general, but to the redemption of the elect; but secondarily and indirectly it also included the natural blessings bestowed on mankind indiscriminately. All that the natural man receives other than curse and death is an indirect result of the redemptive work of Christ.


To emphasize, ". . . important natural benefits accrue to the whole human race from the death of Christ, and that in these benefits the unbelieving, the impenitent, and the reprobate also share. In every covenant transaction recorded in Scripture it appears that the covenant of grace carries with it not only spiritual but also material blessings, and those material blessings are generally of such a kind that they are naturally shared also by unbelievers."

#19764 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:23 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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Ted,

I thought I had made it clear that I do believe that there are "general benefits" which the reprobate and unregenerate share by virtue of the direct benefits given to the elect. I have no problem if one desires to call these residual benefits part of God's common grace. But my objection has always been in the "language" used in this thread, i.e., "Christ died for all in a general way"; insisting that such language most always connotes "in behalf of" (aka: substitution). So to iterate my objection: Yes, there are general/common benefits which flow to all mankind from Christ's death of a physical/material nature. But Christ's death was specifically designed and accomplished for the elect and them only. There may be crumbs which fall from the master's table. But they are not to be understood as being synonymous with the actual food that was served to someone else.

You can call me "picky" if you wish. But I think it is essential that we protect the biblical terminology used in regard to Christ's atonement, which was purposed and accomplished for all those whom the Father gave Him. grin

In His Grace,


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#19765 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:47 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Pilgrim said:
Ted,

I thought I had made it clear that I do believe that there are "general benefits" which the reprobate and unregenerate share by virtue of the direct benefits given to the elect. I have no problem if one desires to call these residual benefits part of God's common grace. But my objection has always been in the "language" used in this thread, i.e., "Christ died for all in a general way"; insisting that such language most always connotes "in behalf of" (aka: substitution). So to iterate my objection: Yes, there are general/common benefits which flow to all mankind from Christ's death of a physical/material nature. But Christ's death was specifically designed and accomplished for the elect and them only. There may be crumbs which fall from the master's table. But they are not to be understood as being synonymous with the actual food that was served to someone else.

You can call me "picky" if you wish. But I think it is essential that we protect the biblical terminology used in regard to Christ's atonement, which was purposed and accomplished for all those whom the Father gave Him. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


Pilgrim,

I don't think you're being picky at all. I believe your point is well taken and well stated. This issue has to do with the design and intent of the atonement. Sure, God knew that crumbs would fall from the table but this is a bi-product of the atonement and not some teleological end.

Blessed Christmas,

Ron

#19766 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:00 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?  
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Ron D said:
I don't think you're being picky at all. I believe your point is well taken and well stated. This issue has to do with the design and intent of the atonement. Sure, God knew that crumbs would fall from the table but this is a bi-product of the atonement and not some teleological end.

Ron,

Thanks for the affirmation. Perhaps I can make my view even clearer by simply saying that when Christ hung on the cross, the names of all whom the Father gave Him and for whom he suffered were impressed upon His mind, heart and soul and none other. It was for them whom He came, it was for them that He lived a perfectly righteous life, it was for them that He suffered with agony beyond the ability of any human to comprehend and it was for them and to them that He sent His Spirit to apply all that He merited for them.

In His grace..... and a Blessed Christmas to you and your house as well!


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