The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Unmovable

Can God create an unmovable rock?

Do you mean, can God create a rock which He cannot move?

I'm sure that is easily answered by asking you if you or anyone you know can move a rock such as the "Rock of Gibraltar". The bigger question is, what will a puny man such as yourself do when you have to stand before the Almighty Lord of heaven and earth and try to explain why you haven't bowed before Him in fear, adoration, and worship while you gazed upon such immoveable objects which testify to His deity and Godhead? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Pilgrim---Oh yeah!!!! Nailed it my brother!!! You shall bow to the Almighty Lord!!!

Tell me friend do you understand the concept of logical impossibilities? Such things as square circles? It correspond to such things as "Can God change the subject of this sentence to 'jello'?" Or can "God make light green gaseous thought colored balloons amongst bionic sheep?" They have no meaning as a sentence see Glenn Miller's take on the Big Rock.

Ultimately what does this say about you and your rebellious attitude toward the Sovereign Lord? Take heed to what others have said here.

Speaking of unmovable objects:

• God’s kingdom shall not be moved. Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire
• Christians trusting in the “Rock of Ages” shall not be moved. Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 112:6 Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance. Psa 112:7 He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the LORD.
• Unfortunately, the non-Christian, in his pride “THINKS” – hath said in his heart, that he shall not be moved.
Psa 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
Psa 10:5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
Psa 10:6 He hath said in his heart, I SHALL NOT BE MOVED: for I shall never be in adversity.
In reply to this last verse, Spurgeon commented: “O impertinence runs to seed! The man thinks himself immutable, and omnipotent too, for he, he is never to be in adversity. He counts himself a privileged man. He sits alone, and shall see no sorrow. His nest is in the stars, and he dreams not of a hand that shall pluck him thence. But let us remember that this man's house is built upon the sand, upon a foundation no more substantial than the rolling waves of the sea. He that is too secure is never safe. Boastings are not buttresses, and self-confidence is a sorry bulwark. This is the ruin of fools, that when they succeed they become too big, and swell with self-conceit, as if their summer would last for ever, and their flowers bloom on eternally. Be humble, O man! for thou art mortal, and thy lot is mutable.”


The contrast of the Godly and the Ungodly is notable in Psalm 1 Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Just note the firmness of the Godly- he is as firm as a tree planted by rivers of water…yet the ungodly will be blown away by the wind.
Do you think you are unmovable…and if so, what do you base it on? Are you Anchored in Jehovah…on the Rock of Ages. Or do you trust in your own pride?

Pro 10:25 As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.



As the old hymn says.
1. Glory hallelujah,
I shall not be moved
Anchored in Jehovah,
I shall not be moved;
Just like a tree that's planted by the waters,
I shall not be moved.

3. Though all hell assail me,
I shall not be moved;
Jesus will not fail me
I shall not be moved.
Just like a tree that's planted by the waters,
I shall not be moved.

4. Though the tempest rages,
I shall not be moved;
On the Rock of Ages
I shall not be moved.
Just like a tree that's planted by the waters,
I shall not be moved.


It is no cleverness to pose the question of the rock that cannot be moved. We need not even be on the topic of theology to be puzzled by the equally conceivable things as an unmovable object and an irresistible force –that has been a philosophical example for years.

The least of your concerns should be a rock. You should be wondering if you yourself can be moved toward salvation, if not, then eternal death shall be YOUR end?

BTW God does nothing against His very nature. The question is not CAN God, but WILL God, and the answer is NO, He will not create a rock so large He can not move for it is against His very nature to do so. For God to create such would be to announce He is not God. However, I will note that you did capitalize God as a proper name, and that you did associate creation with God. Those are No-No's for a true atheist. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

I beleive in God, just not in blind faith.

Hi there,

I would just like to point out to you that the faith that I, and the rest of the Christians on this board have is not blind. I would like to tell you why it is not blind, and to do that, I will quote the words of two very God fearing men:

True religion is a living principle in the soul . . .
influencing the mind,
alluring the affections,
guiding the will,
directing and enlightening the conscience.

True religion is a supreme--not a subordinate matter.
It demands and obtains the throne of the soul. It guides
the whole character--and requires the whole man and all
his conduct to be in subordination.

True religion is not an occasional thing--but habitual.
It takes up its abode in the heart--and not merely
visits it at certain times and at particular seasons.

True religion is a happy--and not a melancholy thing.
It gives peace that passes understanding, and joy that
is unspeakable, and full of glory!

Christianity is very exclusive, and people understand it too well; they understand that it condemns their own behavior; they understand that it witnesses against their own sins, and summons them to judgment. They try to believe it is false and useless, because they don't like to believe it is true. An evil lifestyle must always raise an objection to this book (the Bible). Men question the truth of Christianity because they hate the practice of it.

And I have to ask you, does any other religion give you a good conscience in this life, a good hope in death, a good answer in the day of judgement? Our "blind faith" most certainly does <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And all of these wonderful things are brought about through the the free gift of God which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sincerely in Him,
Dave

What makes you think that we believe in "blind" faith?

Our faith is not "blind"

In fact, according to God's Word, it is you who are blind:


It is when God opens a person's eyes to the truth of who He is that one truly can see.

Good post Dave! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" />


John 9:39-41

Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”

Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.


Wes

My friend,
The faith we speak of is not blind. Jesus came to open the blind eyes.
He speaks of this in his old testament:
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isa 42:17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.
Isa 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.




Mar 10:51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy FAITH hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his SIGHT, and followed Jesus in the way.

Luk 18:35 And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
Luk 18:36 And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.
Luk 18:37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
Luk 18:38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Luk 18:39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Luk 18:40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
Luk 18:41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, RECEIVE THY SIGHT: THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE.
Luk 18:43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.


We do not have “blind faith” but it is by our faith, that we are healed from our blindness. You see, put this way, “Blind faith” is an oxymoron.

Yet those who do not believe in the Lord Are blind ALREADY.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

You think that you are resisting our “blind faith” not knowing, that you are blind now and rejecting the only thing that can make you see.
Certainly you have heard before the hymn: amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but now am found TWAS BLIND BUT NOW I SEE.

I don't think we're using 'blind' in the same context. All i was saying is that although i believe in God im not immune to other theories or ideas or questioning things. I asked a question that came up in my philosophpy higher and was accused of [edited], insulting God and informed that eternal damnnation awaits me. Oh and yesterday i was an atheist promoter of Satanism.

Again, I would ask you, what makes you presume that any of us is in contrast to you?

For many years Philosophers have struggled over the question of epistemology …the study of what we can truly know with certainty. The search for certainty led Descartes to doubt Everything…(“how do I know that I am not deceived every time I add together two and three”…etc) He finally comes to the conclusion that He(himself) Exists, giving rise to the well-known phrase: I think, therefore I am. But the search for truth will never be satisfied without God and the Bible. The Bible teaches that the Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom. (Proverbs 1:7) Philosophy seeks after truth. It originates with man and is always tentative and relative. It is powerless to save. Scripture proclaims truth. It is absolute, the final and saving power of God in Christ. It humbles men before the sovereign God.
Not only does Scripture say that there is ONLY one way to heaven, but that we may be certain of its truth.
Pro 22:20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
Pro 22:21 That I might make thee know the CERTAINTY OF THE WORDS OF TRUTH; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel KNOW ASSUREDLY, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

You say you "believe in God" yet what God do you believe in, and what kind of certainty do you base that belief in? DeathIsTheEnd is an interesting choice to call yourself, but are you CERTAIN what will happen when you die? If you believe in the God of the bible you would have to believe in the existance of hell and eternity.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

DITE:Did you clarify you question?
What is the nature of this question?
Are you questioning whether the Rock referred to in the Bible is unmovable?
Or are you questioning whether the concept of GOD portrayed in the Bible is real of logically possible?
What is your intent behind this question?
This is a Christian forum and there are rules so we need to know where you are headed with this question. I am also trying to ascertain if this is a genuine enquiry that is a part of your quest for the truth or is it that you mean to breakdown a belief that you feel is a weak one?

The thing is, if GOD can be limited by our own definitions and perception then can HE truly be GOD? We believe that GOD is All Powerful and Everlasting, way beyond the reaches of our own perception and HE is not limited by our short commings but is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we may ask or think, so it matters not what you think of our believe, but I am concerned about what it is that you believe, and from many of the other responses I think that that is the concern as well. If you have questions about GOD and the Truth then why not enquire within the pages of the only book that has proven to be the Word of GOD? The Bible. Or why not follow the rules of the forum and engage in a meaningful discourse that seeks to edify yourself?

With all due respect, I believe that DITE deserves an honest anwser to his initial question, so let me be the first to attempt to do that w/ out errr... hitting him over the head w/ various heavy objects.

Recently RC Sproul dealt w/ this subject in detail. So these are not my thoughts...

So, can God create a rock so big that he cant lift it? This question is meant to put a christian in a delema.
1. If yes, then there can extist a substence which limits God (challenging His omnipotence). 2. If no, then there are somethings which God cant do (again, challenging His omnipotence).

The anwser is a big fat NO! But, the limitation here is not in God, in fact the limitation lies in definitions and implications of words.

All words have meaning, which is to say, their definitions. So what is a definition? A definition is that which circumscribes the meaning (aka, creates bounderies). Simply put, all words have implications, which CANNOT be brocken for any particular word to still have its meaning.

So lets dissect this monster...
"Can God create a rock so big that He could not lift it?"

My point... The culprit here is the word CREATE! which will always imply that the creator must be greater then the created! Why is this always implied? Can you come up w/ any instence where this is not true? (hard reason).

Other question in this category?...
"Can God create another God?"
-- once again, breaking implication of CREATE --

"Can God solve a contradiction?"
-- breaking circumscripting implications of CONTRADICTION being: something not solvable.

Therefore people who make up such questions (I am not implying you, DITE), in their zeal to point-out "fallacies" w/ in Christianity, demonstrate their own ignoranse concerning rational common sence.

Last question... who are now the blind ones?

*Off Topic*

Hey Jadeitedrake0, it's nice seeing a post from you.

Dave.

There is only One GOD. This one GOD is Omnipotent (All Powerful, possessing All Power) this concept cannot be fully understood or fully perceieved by an unregenerated mind.

Applying intellectual and phylosophical reasoning about the concept of the Omipotence of GOD outside of the regeneration of the mind is unfruitful. If someone admits that GOD is real and that they believe in GOD, then how can a God who is not All Powerful have created this world? Humans are limited by their expression in the form of words and the understanding of these limited words to begin to define an infinite GOD? The concept is beyond us.

Such questions that are designed to poke holes in "the theory of God" as expressed by the Christian Church can only succeed in poking holes in the limited expressions of human languages and not in the existence of GOD or HIS "All Powerful State". DITE: Which GOD do you believe in? Where do you derive your information about this God if not the Bible?

Paul himself seems to indicate that even unregenerate men can understand what omnipotence entails:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The problem is that they suppress the truth which they know and replace it with a lie.

Kyle wrote:Paul himself seems to indicate that even unregenerate men can understand what omnipotence entails:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The problem is that they suppress the truth which they know and replace it with a lie.

Is this suppression a product of sinful unregeneration (that is always against the Truth) or is it a case that the person or persons in question are in full understanding of the Truth and choose to replace it with a lie? Just for clarity.

Is not the bible the best or the only source available to even the unregenerated mind for a True description of GOD and HIS purpose. Not the observation of Nature etc., as some outside of the Christian walk choose to do and are led away. My previous statement seeks to point to the True direction for Knowledge pertaining to GOD (the Bible), and to state that even when reading the Bible, without a renewing of our minds so-to-speak then it is possible to make incorrect assumptions etc.

Respectfully,
Roy.

Roy,

Methinks you are confusing at least one thing in regard to the effects of man being in his "natural" state, i.e., "unregenerate". Total Depravity doesn't nullify a person's intellect; the ability to think or comprehend. Some of the most brilliant minds born on this earth were unregenerate God haters. Being unregenerate means that one's "predisposition/inclination" is opposed to God and all that is good (aka: God's prescriptive will, His law). Put in the vernacular, unregenerate men hate God and anything that is holy, pure and good. (cf. Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) Now, as to the topic at hand, whether an unregenerate man can understand something of God, it is more than clear from Romans 1:

Romans 1:18-21 (ASV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

In this text, there is a double-indictment against unregenerate men. 1) Knowledge of God is inherent in all men, for it is God Himself Who reveals it to them, e.g., conscience. 2) Knowledge of God, particularly his "everlasting power", aka: sovereignty/power and His "divinity", aka: Supreme being, are clearly seen from the natural creation. Consequently, due to the perspicuity of both the inner testimony from God and the testimony of the physical world, all men are "without excuse", for knowing these things about God, they reject them and substitute their own ideas, philosophies, religions, etc. rather than embracing the truth. It is this rejection which is the fruit of man's natural depravity, and not the inability to perceive the truth.

Without question, the Bible is the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice. The "details" concerning God and particularly of salvation are only found in His inspired, inerrant and infallible Word; the Bible. There is no contradiction here whatsoever with the facts of Rom 1:18-21. There is sufficient proof for the existence and power of God to be found by God's manifestation of this truth within all men and it can also be seen in the world around them. These things alone should be sufficient to cause men to fall to the ground and worship God; not rightly, mind you.. but "naturally" as a creature before the Creator. But natural men do not do this. In fact they cast off this double-truth and with their own corrupt imaginations create "gods" unto themselves. The Scriptures give the details of that inner testimony and the creation, putting everything in its proper place and order. But most importantly, the Scriptures reveal why men suppress/reject the truth and substitute a lie; i.e., they are UNABLE to do anything else, for they are born spiritually dead. They have inherited a corrupt nature which is opposed to the God and truth. And it is upon this fact, that all men are under the wrath of God from conception and subject to damnation, lest God in His righteous mercy should give them newness of life by sending the Holy Spirit to regenerate their dead souls.

So, to summarize.. there is enough evidence to be found in both the inner manifestation of truth and that which is clearly seen with the senses to convict all men of their sinfulness which rejects this truth about the deity of God and His sovereign power. The majesty, holiness, etc., of God can only be known from His inspired written record; the Bible. In it one is told everything necessary about God, Christ, sin, guilt punishment, salvation and the world to come. But without the new birth, aka: regeneration, no one will nor can them embrace this truth in the way required by God, i.e., with one's whole mind, heart, soul and strength through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In His grace,

Sir Pilgrim,
I did say in an earlier post that I believe that Language is our weakness, both in available words and the understanding and use of these words.
However I continue to try to explain what I think. I think that we are arguing at cross purposes. What you have said, Methinks you are confusing at least one thing in regard to the effects of man being in his "natural" state, i.e., "unregenerate". Total Depravity doesn't nullify a person's intellect; the ability to think or comprehend. Some of the most brilliant minds born on this earth were unregenerate God haters. Being unregenerate means that one's "predisposition/inclination" is opposed to God and all that is good (aka: God's prescriptive will, His law). Put in the vernacular, unregenerate men hate God and anything that is holy, pure and good. (cf. Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) Now, as to the topic at hand, whether an unregenerate man can understand something of God, it is more than clear from Romans 1:

is not outside of what I believe, persons who are unregenerated always seem to fall short in their knowledge of GOD owing to all of what is stated in the scriptures. Who He is, where He is, How to contact Him. Yes intellectual reasoning can summarize that there is a God who made all this, and there are inate feelings (placed there by God as the scripture suggests) that evoke a need to recognise GOD and to find out the Truth and this Truth is only present in the Bible, which is of best use to the regenerated mind. I have not offered an excuse to the unregenerated, or argued that they are excused by virtue of being unregenerated, God prompts every one to realise that there is a GOD above all things and above all imaginations. I have also said that the way to the Truth about God (if it is being sought after) is found in the Bible and it would be more fruitful as the seeker becomes regenerated. Cautioning that one should not seek to intellectually comprehend the things od GOD outside of Gods way.

I hope I did better this time.
Respectfully,
Roy

Roy,

Do you believe an unregenerate person seeks after God and then becomes regenerated?


Wes

Wes,
Are we still within the topic of the post, I am trying to conform to the rules.

But here is what I believe, genuine pursuit of the things of God begins from within each seeker by GOD John 6:44-46, &65.

Roy.

I think we're safely within the forum rules for this thread since the topic is about God's sovereignty. I remain confused by the terms you are using about a seeker pursuing the things of God. I don't want to misunderstand you or get hung up on semantics however the verses in John you referenced say that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. So help me understand how that fits what you are trying to convey.


Wes

There is a school of thought that says that once you are elected by God that over night you become familiar with the things of God and you have nothing to do except wait until the Lord comes or you go to meet him. I believe that this is not supported by bible text. So my use of the words pursuit and seek which are pretty much interchangeable, speaks to the way in which GOD draws you unto himself. Every one is born into sin and you know the rest, and GOD I believe from bible text knows exactly who will complete the race and who will not so from HIS point of view it does not matter how the road gets ahead of the person who is among the elect.

But from our point of view in a practical sense we feel a pull that makes us want to attend church if we did not before, makes us want to enquire about the things of GOD and how to be saved from our sins (whether it is in the format of church message or someone speaking at work at a gathering etc. when we begin to feel this drawing) and at a point in our minds when this pulling or drawing from God causes us to actively seek out the things of GOD then I believe it can be termed as a pursuit of some sort.

Not that I believe that a person can of their own feelings, outside of GOD's intervention can just decide to seek the Lord. No. Now I dont profess to be a great writer who is capable of expertly explaining himself so I know that my posts must be dificult to comprehend sometimes especially since I may use words in a context that you may not. Could be a cultural thing <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> I hope I did better this time.

Roy

Roy,

You did better.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for elaborating on that. Unless the Lord intervenes no one would seek Him.

That means that regeneration happens before man seeks God and the Lord is the one pursuing or seeking the lost not the other way around. Romans 3:11 tells us that no one seeks after God. Thankfully God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies those who love Him. It is His plan of sovereign saving grace, enabling all who now believe to trace their faith and salvation back to an eternal decision by God to bring them to glory!


Wes