The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Worship and Change...

I'll be sure to think of Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies the next time I sing "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God."

Yes, and it will interfere with your worship, won't it! Luther's songs are not used by our church. However it appears that you think you can completely isolate what you know of another's theology from what they write and you sing of their songs? Tell us how!

I must thank you for not answering my question and offering the above since it is probably more helpful in making the lines of demarcation much clearer.

Apparently your focus, to use your phraseology, is more upon what "moves" the alleged worshipper in contrast to my focus to understand what is pleasing to God. Simply put, you are more interested in the subjective expression(s) of those allegedly worshipping vs. the objective teaching of Scripture wherein I contend can be found what God demands of man in true worship. What a person believes about God will surely regulate how he acts before God. (cf. Prov 23:7) Thus, one's theology if held consistently will determine one's worship. Wrong theology = vain worship and correct theology = acceptable worship. I am not implying that it is impossible to hold to solid biblical theology and not worship God aright. There is surely enough of that around.

I am still trying to figure out where you got that term "focus" from. However, you limited your list of items to include a very broad spectrum of "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and a variety of instruments" which makes no distinction between them except perhaps as to their source. So, again, it appears that you are saying that anything musical would be acceptable for worship.

Your impression of my views on worship in regard to "contemporary music" is 100% accurate. And my main reason is that, generally speaking and allowing for the rare possible exception, the music is antithetical to what God has revealed about Himself and what He has set down as acceptable worship. The most basic requirement for worship is that it glorify God, i.e., that it be a true reflection of the nature and being of God. What the Lord Christ did was always pleasing to God because He was "the effulgence of His glory" (Heb 1:3 cf. Jh 1:14; Col 2:9), i.e., He "mirrored" God. In the O.T. we find myriad instances where God condemns Israel and the nations for their unacceptable, vain worship. In every instance, it is man deciding how he is going to worship rather than man conforming himself to how God says He is to be worshipped (aka: spirit and truth).

Remember, that we are a people who have been redeemed; brought out of darkness into the light. We are to cast off all our vain imaginations and fill ourselves with truth in order that we might conduct ourselves in a "pleasing" way before God, i.e., that we might glorify Him. (cf. Col 1:9, 10; 1Cor 10:31) Sanctification is that process where sin is removed and purity of righteousness exhibited. God's people are those who are gradually taking on the "divine nature" (2Pet 1:4), i.e., they are being conformed to the nature of Christ. And it is just this that Paul says we are to do: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom 12:2) Incorporating the music of this world, e.g., all forms that are based upon a syncopated beat, into the worship of God is an assault upon God's character and dishonoring to Him. See my long-standing apologetics against CCM, R&R, etc., in past discussions here.

1 John 2:16-17 (ASV) "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

Psalms 2:11 (ASV) "Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling."

Psalms 89:7 (KJV) "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him."

Hebrews 12:28-29 (KJV) "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire."

Revelation 15:4 (ASV) "Who shall not fear, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all the nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy righteous acts have been made manifest."

In His grace,

Actually it doesn't interfere with my worship at all. "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" is an amazing hymn of the faith and I sing it gladly. I do not agree with Luther's view regarding the Jews but I am very grateful for "Bondage of the Will." It was my introduction into Reformed Theology.

The "how" is that I realize all of us are sinners saved by grace. We all err. But that does not make us or our works useless for the kingdom. Discernment is used not only with every song I sing, but every sermon I hear and every theology book I read.

I said nothing of the kind. In fact, I believe it was just the opposite. I get the feeling that I'm merely a stand-in for an ongoing argument and I'm having to answer for someone else's words.


Focus has to do with honoring God with the heart rather than merely the lips. One's actions might appear pleasing to God but the focus of one's heart will always be the true test (Ps 51:16-17; Matt 15:8-9).


Yes, I've heard this argument before. What always fails to happen, though, is an adequate explanation of why the arrangements of hymns of old are more in line with the character of God and the more modern music with syncopated beats are worldly and of the devil. Inherent in every one is an assumption that how one views the music himself is in line with how God views it. As much as you might dislike the accusation, even your view is tainted with subjective opinion.

The question is not if the words and music are good, but rather if the theology of the man you are endorsing affects the theology of your worship--there is a difference. Since I studied in Wittenberg Germany, lived in Luther's residence, and studied some of the actual books he studied, his theology affects me more than many. Go back and re-read what I wrote originally. I said, “The more one knows about the author(s) the more about that person’s character (and thus theology) is interjected into personal worship.” However, since you are the one that brought this issue of Luther to the forefront it actually demonstrates my point—when you thought of Luther, you thought of his error concerning the Jews. It does affect your worship. I not only think of it, but having seen some of the concentration camps (Hitler used Luther’s material for justification his actions; i.e. read Mein Kampf, Daniel Johah Goldhagen's book, Hitler's Willing Executioners, or The Holy Reich, by Walter Buch, the head of the Nazi Party court) it makes me sick.

The object for us is to keep worship as pure as possible—it will never be perfect on this earth. Do you not agree that when we can eliminate sin from the picture—it should be eliminated? I prefer songs that are (1) actual psalms—thus inspired, (2) hymns established on actual texts of Scripture. Thus, I think of God and His Word and not the “author.”

Yes, sermons are preached by fallible men. However, this is another reason why “scriptural” preaching is so important. I desire the text and its proper interpretation—which is from God—not man. If all I am hearing is a preacher’s short stories, jokes, and poems, I am not hearing the Word of God, but rather his wallowing in the mud.

OK, read the whole thing before you start loading your pistols.


But its not all about you is it?

Why does any discussion of worship styles have to deteriorate into a donnybrook of styles and quotes and that sort of thing? Why do we keep asking does the organ go on the left or right? When we ought to be asking should we have an organ? Personally I can't stand the things and thing they are distracting. I'm a banjo picker...does a hymn on the banjo please the Lord less than one sung acapella? (If you don't like banjo's you're in good company. Lots of folks don't.)

But its not just about me is it?

I don't like organs, and not just because they didn't mention them in the Bible. They worshipped with the instruments they had. Harps and cybals and things [sacasm]Should a truly biblical worship service have priests in linen gowns and an Ark?[/sarcasm] of course not.

And thats the reason I'm asking this question. I have to agree with Puritan's NT quote about singing songs, hymns and spiritual songs. You all may be theological giants compared to some I know but if a small child can worship the Lord with Jesus Loves Me and a chain of dandelions and truly please the Lord why do the grown ups have to tangle it up with OT rules and regulations and--albeit centuries old--church traditions? At one time even Martin Luther was "Contemporary".

So let me ask you all (Oklahoma plural "all you all"): Is it right to walk across the desert to make a convert only to choke on a gnat once he's in the fold?

So here's the bottom line for me: If its the attitude of the heart that matters most, why do we clutter our worship service up with rules and expectations? I think its because most folks are content to dust off their worship on Sunday morning and cart it to church, then take it home and put it up for another week. They don't want to think about the idea of worshipping with their lives day by day, minute by minute--which is the way it ought to be.

No, its not all about me. As I stated previously it is about God. However, are we not to be changed in the spirit of our minds to find that which is pleasing to God (Rom 12:1-2)? While it is not all about us, it is some about us. We are to worship God. We are to learn to worship God as He designed it in Scripture. We are to be obedient to God’s Word, which glorifies Him.

I personally do not see God’s Word which regulates worship as “clutter.” What type of attitude, not regulated by Scripture, is acceptable to God? What you describe is more like a bar atmosphere, where everyone may do his own thing—as there are no rules or expectations. However, God does have certain expectations of us in worship and He has given us His regulations so that they may be achieved. The rules of God are there for our enjoyment because they restrict us from that which is not pleasing to a holy God.

BTW: I like the banjo.

But is it an acceptable worship instrument?

If played appropriately and it instills in its audience a since of true worship, why not? However, not on the Cahulawassee River (the fictitious scene of the movie Deliverance). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

So what is the difference between a banjo and an electric guitar or a drum kit for that matter? If you've got an audience--your word--of people for whom thats the right worship, why not? What I'm getting at is that it might be better for the older, more mature members of the church to do more than yell "We ain't never done it that way before". Namely, try to fit the newer worship styles into their service in a way that pleases God.


Agreed. No dueling banjos in the church service.

My sweet lord by George Harrison was put in the Southern Baptist Hymn book in the 70's before they realized who he was singing about.

WHERE have I objected to this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> The Bible says we may use stringed instruments (Psalm 150:4; Isaiah 38:20; Habakkuk 3:19). I DO NOT have problems with instrumentation in the church (some form of guitars have been in existence from at least Babylonian times). However, I DO NOT think they should be centerpiece of the worship service (an orchestra pit comes to mind). Moreover, they may be misused (too loud, wrong key, wrong mode, etc.). As with Calvin, though he discouraged musical instruments (i.e. the Genevans, three years after his death melted down the pipes of the organ in his church to form flagons for communion), I think in worship modesty, gravity, and moderation should be observed. Calvin held that we should always take care that no corruption creep in, which might defile the pure worship of God. He wrote that at heart singing ought to be understood as prayer. The directing principle which Calvin laid down concerning the tunes which the Church ought to sing is that each tune must show its own character and have "dignity and majesty" (The Genevan Tunes An Introduction, by Dennis W. Royall). Calvin said:

Music should be enough to move the heart/soul, but not so much as to move the flesh. Where is line? That is where discernment by those in charge is so very important.

Yep, I know of that mentality, "We ain't never done it that way before!". But that isn't the core issue. The real issue is whether or not whatever is to be done in the worship of God is to be done according to how HE has commanded us to worship Him. This seems to be so simple but so contentious.... and why??

If nothing else, wouldn't one have to assume: 1) God has the divine right to determine how His creatures are to render Him worship? 2) That on such a sober matter of worship and one which the entire OT is filled with mention of God's wrath against false worship and rejection of those that practiced false worship one would want to stay clear of anything which wasn't approved by God?

Why is it today, particularly, professing Christians have taken it upon themselves to ignore the Scriptures on this subject and generalize what worship is? I say, it is because the mentality of Cain has permeated their minds. In essence, Cain thought that he would come before the Lord with what he thought was acceptable, e.g., the best squash, corn, watermelons, tomatoes, etc. He determined for himself how the Almighty was to approached and what sacrifice(s) were going to be pleasing to God. But he was sorely disappointed to find out that his attitude nor selected offering were not the standard by which God is to be worshipped. From God's statement to him, we can know that there was already a divine standard to which he was to conform.

Genesis 4:3-7 (KJV) "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

And so it was from the very beginning that the Lord God set forth specific regulations in regard to His worship. But throughout the history of mankind, there have been those who have taken it upon themselves to disregard God's guidelines for worship and fabricated their own ideas of what God will find pleasing and acceptable. What was true in this regard several thousand years ago is still true today: "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes." (Judges 17:6) When men enthrone their own ideas rather than giving themselves to studying the Word of the Lord to ascertain what it is that HE requires of them, then basically, "anything goes".

Re: if a banjo is an acceptable instrument in the corporate worship of God.... I say no, it cannot be. Why? Because the banjo, like the electric guitar was designed for a particular purpose, i.e., to evoke and/or complement a specific kind of emotion. And the emotions evoked by these instruments are not compatible with the attitude of reverent and sober worship of the thrice holy God.

In His grace,

READ: "The more one knows about the author(s) the more about that person’s character (and thus theology) is interjected into personal worship." After he was sued (PLAGIARISM) and it was known who his lord was (i.e. Harrison told the court that the song that became "My Sweet Lord" was conceived when he slipped away from a press conference and began "vamping" some guitar chords, fitting the chords to the words "Hallelujah" and "Hare Krishna.") did it not affect your singing of the song?