Donations for the month of November


We have received a total of $100 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 3,300
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,533
Posts50,706
Members921
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,293
Tom 3,300
chestnutmare 2,862
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,748
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 20
Pilgrim 16
John_C 2
Recent Posts
The Church of England Announcement
by Tom. Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:11 PM
Law and Grace
by Tom. Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:56 PM
Why I hate the left
by Pilgrim. Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:42 PM
What is a missionary work
by Pilgrim. Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:07 AM
Terrorist Attacks
by AJ Castellitto. Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:08 AM
Theonomy
by Pilgrim. Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:54 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11
#33057 - Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:04 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
beloved57 said:
another good scripture passage ! who is paul talking about when he said christ died for our sins ? according to scripture, what scripture? could you please explain? Thanks..

Paul is stating that the gospel is not what he has produced, but that which he received from the Lord (Gal. 1:12). As a steward of the mysteries of God, an apostle, teacher, preacher, et. al., he was obliged to preach to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 20:21). Paul’s summary is founded upon Scripture, i.e. the OT (Isa 53:5-9; cf. Psa 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:18). Kistemaker summarizes, “for him, the elementary teachings of this gospel are these four redemptive facts”:

Quote
1. that Christ died for our sins,
according to the Scriptures;

2. that he was buried;

3. that he was raised on the third day,
according to the Scriptures; and

4. that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
These facts are the most important ones in Paul’s gospel presentation.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33058 - Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:12 PM The Audience is important! [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
You must consider their prior learning, their theological depth, their language, their capacities, et. al. Though the Gospel remains the same, it is preached, and that not all at once, in different forms and even with different emphasis, depending on the audience, the Holy Spirit, et. al.

Here are your notes for next week's sermon. Enjoy.

Attached Files

Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33059 - Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:42 PM Re: The Audience is important! [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
Quote
J_Edwards said:
You must consider their prior learning, their theological depth, their language, their capacities, et. al. Though the Gospel remains the same, it is preached, and that not all at once, in different forms and even with different emphasis, depending on the audience, the Holy Spirit, et. al.

Here are your notes for next week's sermon. Enjoy.

Sorry, but the sermon for next week has been canceled due to a lack of interest! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Exactly.... and this has been my point, at least that is the point I have been trying to make. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> One of the most pernicious errors of our day is that people assume too much about those outside of Christ (and even those united to Christ). Thus to speak of Christ as if the person you are speaking with has any idea whatsoever who the Lord Christ is a major faux pas. Most people today don't have a clue as to the who the true Living God is. To be sure, everyone has their own ideas (aka: misconceptions) about God, but they are 99% of the time far from having an resemblance to the true God. And isn't this exactly what we are to expect from those we meet according to Romans 1? Although human beings "know" God, i.e., they are exposed to His eternal deity and Godhead, they reject all the testimony around them in the natural creation. And even more so, the truth of God revealed in them, yet they totally reject that knowledge and substitute an idol of their own corrupt hearts and minds, being haters of God by nature.

So, to ask someone to "believe in Jesus" is truly foolishness; Jesus WHO? which Jesus are YOU speaking about? And what do you mean by "believe"? Do you believe such a person existed? exists? was He God incarnate? or is to believe on the Lord Christ unto justification an entirely different thing which involves one's entire being (fiducia).

It is one thing to preach a sermon from a pulpit to an unknown audience where you MUST assume that there are unbelievers in the congregation who have a knowledge of God without having been regenerated and who have repented of their sins and embraced Christ with a whole and living faith. And it is another matter to preach to your own congregation where you know there are true believers sitting there and who need comfort, rebuke, instruction, correction and training in righteousness. Thus Paul's sound words of wisdom to his young protégé Timothy:

Quote
2 Timothy 2:15 (ASV) "Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth."

2 Timothy 4:1-3 (ASV) "I charge [thee] in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;" (cf. 1Cor 3:1, 2; 1Thess 5:14; Heb 5:11-14)

And here are your notes for next month's sermon! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#33060 - Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:22 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
well I can`t argue with that . There will be times when we can begin from a certain observable point. Your example with mars hill , paul observed there superstitous, and proceeded from there, but nevertheless, again the key elements of the gospel were set forth as in 17: 26 Gods sovereignty 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; vs 29 The trinity 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. The deity of christ and his lordship vs 31 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Yes, there will be those in different advancements of the truth and God will send that preacher of the gospel to fill that which is lacking in their faith.


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33061 - Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:26 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
you still did not answer my question sir, no disrespect intended but could you tell me who was paul refering to when he said that christ died for our sins ?


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33062 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:08 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
beloved57 said:
you still did not answer my question sir, no disrespect intended but could you tell me who was paul refering to when he said that christ died for our sins ?

With all due respect why do you need my answer when the text answers this? .... please re-read 1 Cor 15:1 again, ... "Now I make known unto you brethren,"


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33063 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:51 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
You still evade my question sir ! Who do you say is paul refering to, when he said christ died for our sins according to scripture. Is paul preaching limited atonement ? In your opinion, yes or no please..


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33064 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:18 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
beloved57 said:
You still evade my question sir ! Who do you say is paul refering to, when he said christ died for our sins according to scripture. Is paul preaching limited atonement ? In your opinion, yes or no please..

No sir, you are avoiding what the text says! You appear to want to view all preaching with a TULIP approach. The unscriptural sixth sola: Sola Quinque Pedal Declamatio … (Five Pedal Sermons Alone).

As previously posted, Paul was addressing the “brethren” (adelphos). Paul’s statement is not to all the elect (notice that Paul uses the term “if” in verse two, “which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”). Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Church in a general way, calling them brothers, however, knowing that all are not elect (i.e. the visible church, not the invisible church). Had Paul desired to address only the elect he would have used the term elect.

In 1 Cor 15:3, Paul’s major emphasis is not on Limited Atonement—he does that elsewhere—but rather belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (only the elect can truly believe, but that is not Paul’s emphasis “here”). Paul is saying “here” that it is a historical fact—supported by witnesses—that Christ raised from the dead. Notice he is saying this is the “Gospel” however, it is only part and parcel of the Gospel. Notice verse 3: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” [in other words there are "other" important things, but he is not bringing them out "here"]. Paul’s empahsis “here” is on belief, not election, in the death and resurrection of Christ according to the “scriptures.” Look at the context of these verses in reference to the remainder of the chapter.

Though the preacher would know that his audience is not all elect and that everyone he is preaching to will not, and cannot believe, in preaching this text he should not concentrate (primary point) on Limited Atonement, but on belief in the death and resurrection of Christ. The text is the message of the sermon and not one’s presuppositions that he desires to read upon the text.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33065 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:53 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
You are absolutely wrong on this, Paul clearly states in those verses that christ died for the elect according to the scriptures, what scriptures? The old test scriptures, the old test scriptures shows forth all the way through that the death of christ is limited. Gen 3: 15...when he called abraham, the formation of the people of israel, the sacrifices and what they symbolized..All of old test scripture points to the elect of God as being the ones for whom christ died. Is 53, old test scripture, is referring to the elect, my people is talking about the elct the sheep.
Yes I do espouse that part of the Gospel message that paul preached is limited atonement and election , you can call it points of calvinism if you like but it is the word of God. As far as all the audience being the elect, well listen. This was a group of professed believers at corinth, now can we be sure that all confessed believers are genuine believers ? No. Thats why he said IF. If there would be some that apostacized from the truth, then 1jn applys 2: 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Paul is charitable in addressing all who came together as brethern , for they profess to believe the gospel, but he was aware of some may have been stoney heart believers matt 13: 20 , 21 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

You cannot get away from it, the gospel paul preached contained the truth of limited atonement, if you deny it, you deny scripture..period ! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33066 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:58 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
You are absolutely wrong on this, Paul clearly states in those verses that christ died for the elect according to the scriptures, what scriptures? The old test scriptures, the old test scriptures shows forth all the way through that the death of christ is limited. Gen 3: 15...when he called abraham, the formation of the people of israel, the sacrifices and what they symbolized..All of old test scripture points to the elect of God as being the ones for whom christ died. Is 53, old test scripture, is referring to the elect, my people is talking about the elct the sheep.

Sir, first Paul NEVER says literally in 1 Cor 15:1-4 (“here”) that “christ died for the elect according to the scriptures,” as the term elect is not even used. Is "according to the Scriptures" referring to Isa 53, YES. Is Christ's dying for the elect referred to in Isa 53, YES, but that is not Paul's empahsis in 1 Cor 15. Is it implied here as secondary, yes, but it is not the primary emphasis of this group of verses.

Second, in my previous post, I was very careful to use the term “here,” not “there” (Isa 53, etc.). Paul’s empahsis “here” is on belief, not election, in the death and resurrection of Christ according to the “scriptures.” Though Isa 53 speaks of Limited Atonement, Isa 53 also speaks of the death and resurrection of Christ and belief (Isa 53:1) and this is Paul’s point in 1 Cor 15. Paul is emphasizing a particular part of the Gospel the belief “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:1). Now, does "according to the Scripture", include Limited Atonement, of course, but it also includes a whole lot more ... the major emphasis here is faith, death, and resurrection though, not election--look at the reminder of the chapter ..


Quote
Yes I do espouse that part of the Gospel message that paul preached is limited atonement and election , you can call it points of calvinism if you like but it is the word of God.

I am glad you are a Calvinist, so am I. However, TULIP is not the only sermon in the Bible. This was my point—reread the post.

Quote
You cannot get away from it, the gospel paul preached contained the truth of limited atonement, if you deny it, you deny scripture..period !

Yes, Paul did preach Limited Atonement, but that is not his emphasis in 1 Cor 15:1-4. You are presupposing too much upon the text using your methodology (Isogesis). Its like a Charismatic seeing a demon behind every bush, you are empasizing a TULIP, to the exclusion of other doctrines (i.e. faith), in every verse.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33067 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:04 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
Quote
beloved57 said:
You cannot get away from it, the gospel paul preached contained the truth of limited atonement, if you deny it, you deny scripture..period ! bif

Now, now..... let's be nice, shall we? scold The truth here is that you are doing what is infamously called, "eisogesis", i.e., reading into the text. As J_Edwards rightly responded to you, IN THIS SPECIFIC TEXT, Paul is making a general statement concerning the death and resurrection of Christ, i.e., He died for our [sic. sinners] sins according to the Scriptures. This would be similar to me stating, "Christ died for sinners, just like you and me." I would not be making a definitive statement concerning the death of Christ for you in particular, but only that Christ died for a group of individuals who are sinners. Whether you are elect or not is not even implied. It is true that Paul taught "Definite Atonement"; but not in this text.

In a similar fashion, I have seen preachers spend more time making an "apology" for a passage of Scripture that taught man's responsibility than preaching on the text by stressing God's sovereignty. If you are going to preach/teach the Scriptures, then let the Scripture's speak as the Holy Spirit moved those holy men to write it. If one is worried about such things, then preach the next time on the complimentary doctrine. And this is what Paul did. He preached the whole counsel of God. But he didn't cram everything into one sermon or teaching session. If the text speaks about the love of God, then preach on the love of God. Don't diminish the depth of that love by constantly interjecting the fact that God is One Who also hates, etc., etc... ad nauseam. grin

One of the crucial things we must do in our teaching, preaching and informal speaking with others from the Scriptures is to be faithful to the CONTEXT. If I may repeat an oft used phrase, "A text out of context is nothing more than pretext!" That the Bible teaches what we call Calvinism or more specifically, the "Five Points of Calvinism" is indisputable, at least among the great majority of those who are members here. But not every text in Scripture teaches them in particular. Handling the Word of God rightly is something we all need to strive for. And from what you have written on this subject so far, it seems that you need to carefully consider this with perhaps a bit more effort. wink
In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#33068 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:09 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
Sir, Theres no way around it, you also may deny it, but paul in 1cor 15, yes in the context he is going to speak on the resurrection, I see that plainly, but in getting to that point he plainly lays out that which he recieved as the Gospel. You are being dishonest to scripture if you deny that the phrase( our sins) is generalized ,that can never be and you know it. Paul draws reference to according to scripture , thats very important in determining for whom sins he refers to. You may deny Limited atonement in that verse, but its there and you can`t change it. Don`t mean to mean but truth is truth, don`t twist it...


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33069 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:23 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
beloved57 said:
Sir, Theres no way around it, you also may deny it, but paul in 1cor 15, yes in the context he is going to speak on the resurrection, I see that plainly, but in getting to that point he plainly lays out that which he recieved as the Gospel. You are being dishonest to scripture if you deny that the phrase( our sins) is generalized ,that can never be and you know it. Paul draws reference to according to scripture , thats very important in determining for whom sins he refers to. You may deny Limited atonement in that verse, but its there and you can`t change it. Don`t mean to mean but truth is truth, don`t twist it...

No one denied that Limited Atonement may be alluded to in the verse (for it is for whom Christ died), only that it is not the major emphasis of the verse, or group of verses, or that matter the chapter,--belief in the death and resurrection is the major emphasis. Paul goes on from here and describes faith and the final resurrection ... not election.

#33070 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:09 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
beloved57 Offline
Member
beloved57  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 102
Georgia
Alluded to, its proclaimed paul said I declared. And not only that, he says that is of first importance! Look at the niv rendering of vs 3,4 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

And yes in this verse, it is the major emphasis, now grant it the emphsasis begins to merge into the subject of the resurrection, I see that. But in the mean time , the verses preceeding set forth the true gospel that paul received from heaven and that which he was accustmed to preach.

Again i understand what the overall emphasis was leading up to, as it pertained to the resurrection of the body, nevertheless, paul clearly and plainly referred back to the gospel that he had proclaimed to them previously and what it was ! You guys don`t have to agree with me, but it is as plain as day, thank you for responding though..


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33071 - Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:55 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
You guys don`t have to agree with me, but it is as plain as day, thank you for responding though..

What is plain as day is ALL you desire to see in the “gospel” is election and Limited Atonement and desire to leave out the rest …. You say LOOK, LOOK, LOOK at Isaiah 53 – SEE, SEE, SEE and all you point out is limited atonement. However, even a brief overview, and very brief at that, reveals that Isaiah 53 is about A LOT MORE than just Limited Atonement:

Quote
Faith, vs 1
There is a message, vs 1
The message is revealed by God, vs 1
Jesus is a real man, vs 2
Jesus was rejected, vs 3
Jesus was despised, vs 3
Jesus bore sin, vs 4
Jesus was afflicted for me, vs 4
Jesus brought me to peace with God, vs 5
Jesus took all my sin, not just part of it, vs 6
Jesus suffered and complained not, vs 7
Jesus was stricken for his elect, vs. 8
Jesus truly dies, vs 9
Jesus sufferings were God’s will, vs. 10
God is satisfied by Christ’s sacrifice, vs 11
Jesus bore the sin of many, vs 12
Christ made intercession for the transgressors, vs. 12

Thus my problem is when you say “according to the Scriptures,” and ONLY SEE – Limited Atonement. One wonders why you are willing to “overlook” the rest of Isaiah and just concentrate on one issue?

In 1 Cor 15, Paul looked at Isaiah and warns us what he is about to do. He said he is going to tell us about the gospel, but not all the gospel (1 Cor 15:3). Paul’s intent is not to preach the whole of chapter 53 here, but to emphasize Christ’s death and resurrection. He does this because he is preparing to explain and make a parallel with the final resurrection (1 Cor 15:35f). Again, as Pilgrim already stated, you need to learn to study scripture within the context of what the author of it intends and not what you desire to “always” read upon it (i.e. Sola Quinque Pedal Declamatio … Five Pedal Sermons Alone). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 2 guests, and 94 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron, billmcginnis
921 Registered Users
Shout Box
November
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Today's Birthdays
johncalvinhall, ReformedStudent
Popular Topics(Views)
650,532 Gospel truth
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.058s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 2.7338 MB (Peak: 3.0392 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-11-19 05:02:19 UTC