The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum For Whom Did Christ Die?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Please, Please,

Everyone who has not read the Death of Death by John Owen, Buy it (and a highlighter or two) and dedicate a month or three to studying it, Yes it is difficult, it is time consuming (especally if you study it with Bible at side as you should) BUT I assure you that you will be glad you did, even if you just read through it as fast as you can (not that you could) you will be greateful. He has answered every question imaginable about the theology of redemption.

As have many others.

Pilgrim, I believe that your vs freewill limits the grace of God. The Son's sacrifice provided the perfect means of reconciliation for "all" men. Just because all men do not have the blood applied to the "doorposts" of their hearts doesn't mean it isn't available. It isn't a vs situation. Sufficient grace has been provided, the issue comes down to upon whom does the Spirit apply it. I personally disagree with how Owen looks at the atonement, my view is that it is available to everyone even though it is only the who become beneficiaries of it. Don't limit the grace of God, that isn't who He is. If it were possible for the lost to show faith in Christ without the Spirit, (which they can't) they would be saved.

hisalone,

1. I think you are confusing the issue; "for whom did Christ die?" (the efficacy of Christ's death) with "for whom is the grace of God in Christ available?" (free offer of the Gospel).

2. What was God's purpose in sending Christ? Was it to actually secure the salvation a fixed number of sinners (the elect)? Or, was it only to make salvation possible, i.e., it didn't actually secure salvation for anyone?

3. You are certainly entitled to disagree with John Owen's treatise but the fact is NO ONE has to this day ever written nor offered a rebuttal against it. His treatment of the atonement is so thorough and biblically sound, an valid argument against it doesn't exist.

4. Re: limiting the grace of God. This is one of the most common objections launched against the historic doctrine of the atonement. However, both sides limit the atonement. The semi-Pelagian/Arminian view limits the efficacy of it because it fails to actually secure the salvation of anyone in itself. Secondly, it limits the grace of God in that it says that God had no one in particular in mind to save when He sent Christ into the world. Thirdly, it limits the sovereignty of God for theoretically, Christ could have died in vain should no one believe on Him. The Reformed/Calvinist view limits the number of recipients to those whom the Father predestinated to salvation in Christ. Thus the grace of God is exalted for Christ actually accomplished that which the Father intended; "he shall save his people from their sins".

Spurgeon marvelously illustrated the two views with a bridge:

1. The Calvinists have a narrow bridge which reaches the other side.
1. The semi-Pelagians/Arminians have a bridge that is wide but stops half-way.

Perhaps you would appreciate this article: Sufficient for All, by Jim Elliot and/or Limited Atonement, by Loraine Boettner.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,
It possibly is a misunderstanding on my part concerning the question at hand. That was why I originally asked what the "for" in the question represented. I have Owen's works on my shelf as well as many other Puritan and reformed books. I have read various authors concerning the atonement. I have not strayed from the Reformed view, other than seeing everything as more extensive. God's love and grace as enveloping all mankind. The application of those things is something entirely separate. I did start reading MacArthur on the love of God, he was basically saying what I was trying to say only I don't like his use of degrees of love. Instead of degrees I see it as applied or not. I'll read Boettner when I get the chance.

You wouldn’t be into the Emergent Church movement would you?
Trying to figure out what you believe is like trying to nail jello to a wall.
Which means basically your input into this thread is useless.

Tom

Which means basically that you believe that everything is subjective and that we can never know the truth objectively.

Tom

Civil debate begins, poster, when people make sure that there are no unnecessary personal pronouns in their statements.

Civil debate begins, poster, when all parties to a discussion are courteous and courageous enough to state their views as clearly and unambiguously as possible so that others may engage with and critique them. All that I have seen you contribute to any debate so far is a lot of disrespectful heckling and cryptic one-liners. Do you have anything else to offer, or are you just a "stinker" or "one-trick pony"? Please feel free to answer here or on my "What Kind of Blogger Are You?" thread.

That's odd, because the other poster reckons to know what I think before knowing that.

More unnecessary personal pronouns. That gets exclusion from debates.

Falsehoods, even more.

When you start answering questions in a clear and concise manner and stop making ambiguous posts, then it is worth discussing things with you.
My response to you is not just based on that particular post from you; it is based on every post that I have read from you.

If by chance I am wrong about you, then I am going to need some evidence. Until then, I am just wasting my time, by trying to communicate with you.
The ball is in your court.

Tom

Ahh yes more ambiguous nonsense. I've also noticed you didn't answer my question either. So let me put it to you directly xyz: Christ's death on the cross, his atoning work, to whom does it directly benefit?

Try to be precise in your response.

In John 17, Jesus clearly states in V. 6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world", then in v. 9 I pray for them, i am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours"
Jesus died for those and only those that His Father had elected to salvation. There are many other scripture veres that support election, Ephesians 1, Romans 9

Well thank you mercy however this question was directed to xyz and not to the general audience of this particular thread. My goal is to see 1.) If xyz will answer a direct query. 2.) Have xyz reveal what he believes concerning the atoning work of Christ.

This is not to denigrate your response at all please keep that in mind.