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The [First] London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1644. You must understand this in its historical context, Anthony. Although it does not use the word "begotten," this is how the LBCF 1644 describes the relationship of the Persons of the Trinity: "the Father being from himself, the Son of the Father from everlasting, the holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son." (I have no documentation as to why this clause was omitted in the 1646 edition.) In the Nicene Creed, we have "the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds" and " the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son." We can also look to the Athanasian Creed, which was common in the Western church: "The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son."
Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:39 PM. Reason: corrections
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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I have already clearly submitted that the Son's essence was NOT generated/begotten of the Father since the Father and Son and Spirit are all of the SAME essence (homoousios). Please go back and reread what was written in this regard. The nicene promotes that The Eternal word, who is God, was begotten before all worlds, this is heresy sir, and you appear to defend it..do you defend the nicene or not in this matter or do you know what you believe ?
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In the Nicene Creed, we have "the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds" Is this in regards to the Deity of the Son ? Is that what you believe and promote as being begotten of His father before all worlds ? yes or no please, then explain why..Thanks..
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Heb 1:5. 'For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You."? And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son."'
Now what is the nature of a 'son'? Surely it is someone who has been begotten? And surely a father, by definition, is someone who begets.
When did this begetting take place? Certainly 'before all worlds.' Heb 1:2. '.....His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the worlds.' The Son was the Son before the first day of creation. John 17:24. 'Father............You loved Me before the foundation of the world.'
Psalm 2:7. 'I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me, "You are My Son, today I have begotten you."' When did God make His decree? In eternity, according to Reformed theology.
The Nicene seems fine to me! Most of God's saints have been called heretics at one time or another.
Steve
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Persnickety Presbyterian |
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Is this in regards to the Deity of the Son ? Is that what you believe and promote as being begotten of His father before all worlds ? yes or no please, then explain why..Thanks.. Yes, of course it is in regard to the deity of the Son: begotten, NOT made; before all worlds (from eternity), NOT in time. This is Scripture truth. For John says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. ... No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:14, 18). The glory of the Word (eternal & uncreated) is the same glory as that of the only begotten from the Father; therefore this glory is a property of His Deity, not of his humanity, for His humanity, like ours, was created in time. Thus the begottenness of the Son has referrence to His deity, not His humanity. Furthermore, if the begottennes of the Son has referrence to His humanity, then by necessity you attribute to the Father a human nature, for like begets like, according to the principle in Gen. 5:3, "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image." But Adam was created in God's image; he was not begotten of the Father!
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Persnickety Presbyterian |
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The nicene promotes that The Eternal word, who is God, was begotten before all worlds, this is heresy sir Please explain why this is heresy. And if you say it derives from Greek mythology, please document which myths.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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I am not trying to add to what CovenantInblood or Pilgrim have already said. Just thought I would post a couple sections from a couple of great books. An Exposition of the Westminster Confession of Faith
by Robert Shaw
Section III.–In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternal begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
II. The Sacred Three are distinguished from each other by their personal properties. It is the personal property of the Father to beget the Son.–Ps. ii. 7. It is the personal property of the Son to be eternally begotten of the Father.–John. i. 14. It is the personal property of the Holy Ghost to proceed eternally from the Father and the Son.–John xv. 26; Gal. iv. 6. These are called personal properties, to distinguish them from the essential perfections of Deity. Essential perfections are common to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but a personal property is something peculiar to each, something which may be affirmed of one, but cannot be affirmed of the other two. Paternity is peculiar to the first person, filiation to the second, and procession to the third. We pretend not to explain these personal properties; here, if in anything, it is safest to abide by the language of Scripture. Body of Divinity by Thomas Watson
The Trinity
II. Let me speak of the Trinity in Unity.
[I] The first person in the Trinity is God the Father. He is called the first person, in respect of order, not dignity: for God the Father has no essential perfection which the other persons have not; he is not more wise, more holy, more powerful than the other persons are. There is a priority, not a superiority.
[2] The second person in the Trinity is Jesus Christ, who is begotten of the Father before all time. 'I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, was I brought forth.’ Prov 8: 23 - 25. This Scripture declares the eternal generation of the Son of God. This second person in the Trinity, who is Jehovah, is become our Jesus. The Scripture calls him the branch of David, Jer 23: 5, and I may call him the flower of our nature. 'By him all that believe are justified.’ Acts 13: 39. Have a good Lord's day, William .
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The Nicene seems fine to me Then you too believe in a begotten deity, thats paganism..
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Please explain why this is heresy God is not begotten..Deity doesnt beget Deity, this ideal stems from greek philosophy..
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Yes, of course it is in regard to the deity of the Son: begotten, NOT made This doesnt soften the blow at all, to say begotten and not made..the implication is still that of being caused to exist, not having your own self existence..to come into being..This is blasphemous to relegate to The Deity.. The eternal Logos has Just as much self existence and eternity as the father, do you believe the father was begotten too ?
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The second person in the Trinity is Jesus Christ, who is begotten of the Father before all time . The man Jesus christ was begotten of the Father before all worlds, that is his manhood, but His Deity as the eternal word was never begotten..
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Please explain why this is heresy. And if you say it derives from Greek mythology, please document which myths Nicenism is a failing effort to reconcile Jewish Unitarianism with ancient Greek Mythology and Philosophy. Justin Martyr introduced eternal generation into the Christian concept. See for example his debate with Typro the Jew.Look the said debate up, if you want to.. But Justin Martyer is responsible for this error, do you know who that is ?
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If you wish to persuade me to your view, you are more likely to succeed if you interact with the Scriptures I quoted and refrain from abusive assertions. You are most unlikely to succeed even then, but try it anyway.  Steve
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God is not begotten..Deity doesnt beget Deity, this ideal stems from greek philosophy.. First you stated it was Greek mythology, now it's Greek philosophy. In either case, show me the myth or philosopher.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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