The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum True Worship ???

Proper, True, Biblical Worship in the Church:<br><br>What is it? <br>Have you experienced it?<br>Are you experiencing now in your church?<br>What does it REALLY look like?<br><br>I have been contemplating this issue for some time. Recently, some new developments here in Florida have brought this to the fore-front for me again. A new OPC church here in Florida is beginning which I have been given an opportunity to be in the formation of (though I actually moved down here with some other initial intentions-another church....). One of the elders actually assisted writing a book "With Reverence and Awe, Returning to the Basics of Reformed Worship". The pastor himself (Westminster graduate) is doing his doctorates on this very issue as well. Thus, I myself am attempting to get a better more complete view of what proper worship in God's church "is" and "what it truly looks like". Of course, there are several articles on this very issue everywhere, but that is not the point here. Specifically, what are YOUR views as established by Scripture on this issue?

Joe-- GRASP THAT GOD GIVEN OPPORTUNITY NOW !<br><br>In answer to your four questions - Dont know, dont know, dont know and dont know.<br><br>I would dearly love to attend the church with someone who does know .<br><br><br>howard

In corporate worship, specifically, I think that worship is going in with the intention of seeing and savoring God and nothing else.<blockquote>[color:blue]Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good!<br>Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!</font color=blue> Psalm 34:8 (ESV)</blockquote> Only when we have done this have we truly worshipped. <br><br>Have I experienced it personally? On occaision...but God doesn't desire us to feast on Him on occaision. He wants it all the time.<br><br>Am I experiencing it now in my church? Sadly no. Yesterday, Sunday, the sermon was a self-help seminar on how to prepare yourself so that God can give you His vision.<br><br>What does it look like? I don't honestly know what it looks like. I would think that it would look very solemn and the people would almost be silent but with a satisfied smile on their face at the fact that they just tasted God. <br>

Proper, true worship? I guess the words that spring to mind are these: in Spirit and in Truth (and yes, I did mean to capitalize), in reverance and awe, God centered and God pleasing.<br><br>Have I experienced it? I believe I have and yet I know that my heart is deceitful and wicked and I dare not judge my own "worship" by my feelings. In a real sense, I believe that God alone can "judge" the worship of the heart.<br><br>Am I experiencing it in my church? Well, as you know, we are still in the process of finding a new church home. We dearly love our church in OH and felt it to be God honoring and sound in doctrine, but even with all that, I believe that God was speaking to our hearts even then that He desired a change in our understanding of what it means to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.<br><br>What does it really look like? Well, that is the thing, isn't it? I'm not sure that we can judge it by how it looks, unless it would be by observing the ongoing sanctification that is brought about in an individual's life through the power of the Holy Spirit. But we are not really talking about individual worship, but corporate, right? Can one have one without the other? <br><br>Specifically, what are YOUR views as established by Scripture on this issue? Here is where the rubber meets the road. And here is the only measure we have to know what God desires. First, may we establish that we are discussing corporate, rather than individual worship? <br><br>More questions than answers, I know. One thing I do know, this is a burning, relentless issue in my heart (and my husband's). I find it interesting that it has been in about the last 9 months that this has come to the fore of our hearts and minds and our conversation, as it has for you and your wife.<br><br>I look forward to this thread. Thank you for starting it, Joe.<br><br>

Joe<br>Thanks for starting this thread, and I look forward to the thoughts her. At first what came to mind was, In Spirit and in Truth, yet I am not sure I experience that much any more. I do think I have in the past at times, but where I am now I'm not sure. <br><br>And yes, I am assuming too we are speaking of corporate worship.<br><br>Please give us your thoughts.

Yes, I am speaking of corporate worship, but CW begins with individual worship IMHO. Thus, what is worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH both individually and corporately. Of course, regulative worship (principle) is the automatic catch term, but how does one truly, spiritually, physically, and biblically, et. al. experience this? What does it look like, et. al.?

In reply to: Proper, true worship? I guess the words that spring to mind are these: in Spirit and in Truth (and yes, I did mean to capitalize), in reverence and awe, God centered and God pleasing.
Yes, I would agree and add God seeking. But, what is "in Spirit" mean? What does "in Truth mean"? Yes, we have more questions than answers ....always a good place to begin!

In reply to: Have I experienced it? I believe I have and yet I know that my heart is deceitful and wicked and I dare not judge my own "worship" by my feelings. In a real sense, I believe that God alone can "judge" the worship of the heart. I must admit I think I have for BRIEF moments, but not on a regular basis--and this is what I am aiming at...... Of course, true worship must be practiced IMHO individually, before one can come to a more fruitful experience corporately. Thus, both the individual and the church need to work on this issue, apart and together.....
In reply to: Am I experiencing it in my church? Well, as you know, we are still in the process of finding a new church home. We dearly love our church in OH and felt it to be God honoring and sound in doctrine, but even with all that, I believe that God was speaking to our hearts even then that He desired a change in our understanding of what it means to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
We continue to pray for you here as well. Choosing the right church is getting more and more difficult as I can attest in my recent move. You would think in the heart of the south in the midst of a Reformed Seminary you would find plenty of good solid reformed churches that are practicing the "truth" of Scripture. Sadly, it is not the case. Thus far I have visited only ONE "acceptable" church where I may desire to worship. Considering the number of Presbyterian churches we have visited (and all allegedly considered conservative) this does not such much.
In reply to:
What does it really look like? Well, that is the thing, isn't it? I'm not sure that we can judge it by how it looks, unless it would be by observing the ongoing sanctification that is brought about in an individual's life through the power of the Holy Spirit. But we are not really talking about individual worship, but corporate, right? Can one have one without the other?
I kind of answered this above and thus will not address the individual/corporate issue as I do not see how one can "fully" have one without the other. Thus, what--if we are doing our parts correctly (and this is saying allot and too much, but for the sake of edification.....)--does corporate worship in the truly biblical sense actually look like? What does it consist of? What truly pleases God in the church?

In reply to:
"]In corporate worship, specifically, I think that worship is going in with the intention of seeing and savoring God and nothing else.

I think we would all agree here with seeking and savoring, but how are we going to "flesh out" these terms. How do se "seek" and how do we "savor" the very presence of God? Yes, TASTE and SEE, but how do we taste, before there is food to taste? How should the food be presented? What type of dish should the food be in....et. al. Still more questions and I believe as we seek for the answers in Scripture we will come to a more fruitful knowledge of who God is and how He desires us to worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

True worship is "Spirit" in that it flows from the heart guided by the Holy Spirit which is determined by the "Truth" of what we know of God objectively. The actual expression and experience, of course, varies according to how much sin tempers our knowledge and expression. In other words, too often we do not do that which we know is right.

In His Grace,

AMEN, and this is why true worship must be "fully" individual prior to being corporate. Though I believe a church may lead individuals in a complete GODLY way of worship the "full unity" and all its possibilities will not be experienced by ANY until EVERY one in worship lives out their lives to the fullest extremes of Christianity (I know I am looking forward to glory as well....). May God give us repentance and acknowledging by word and deed to the Truth so His Spirit will flow through us like mighty rushing rivers...applying His truth to our hearts in regular experience.<br><br>So, if we were to get the individual part right what is the corporate going to look like?

Well brother many possibilities exist, but WHICH God desires to me to go to is a matter of prayer and discernment. While this church, which is not even off the ground yet, MAY get everything right (?) that may not be the place for myself and my family. I have to look at MORE than just what I would like, but a place where my wife and I may be used to our fullest potentials in the ministry--which is a part of true worship as well..

We seek it with all our heart just as God promises to do good to us with all His heart.How so we savor it? We savor it by wanting more and more of it and holding fast to it and never letting it go. As the praise song says, "Draw me close to You/ Never let me go/ I lay it all down again/ To hear you say that I'm Your friend/ You are my desire/ Nothing else will do..."

While I am not a fan of modern stuff so much, I think that song is an amazing and convicting prayer. Not many of us, myself included, have God as our only desire. In fact, as I write this, my heart is pierced through by the fact that I am not in a good mood today and that more than wanting to worship, I wanna talk to this one girl. And I know that I need to go to God and spend time with Him, but, as I said to one of my friends on instant messenger, "It's hard to want what you know you need when all you want is that which will never satisfy...". I don't really know what that means save for that it is how I am feeling right now.

How do we taste before there is food to taste? I don't know...

How should the food be presented? The packaging doesn't necessarily matter so much if what we are doing is Biblical. Jeremiah laments in Lamentations about his people's worship...

Can one worship in a church where he is not given many opportunities to serve in the capacity to which he is called to the fullest?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]We seek it with all our heart just as God promises to do good to us with all His heart.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Once again I agree but how do you DO THIS? What does it mean to SEEK with ALL your heart? Does it not include prayer, Bible Study, worship, discipline, obedience, et. al.?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]How so we savor it? We savor it by wanting more and more of it and holding fast to it and never letting it go. As the praise song says, "Draw me close to You/ Never let me go/ I lay it all down again/ To hear you say that I'm Your friend/ You are my desire/ Nothing else will do..."</font><hr></blockquote><p> But, how do you savor that you do not understand? Once again does this not take prayer, Bible Study, worship, discipline, obedience, et. al.? If we are faithful over little then God blesses with much.....<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]How should the food be presented? The packaging doesn't necessarily matter so much if what we are doing is Biblical. Jeremiah laments in Lamentations about his people's worship...</font><hr></blockquote><p> Here I would disagree. The food (Word of God) needs to be packaged exegetically. Not everything everyone does with the Word of God in preaching is "biblical". Some preach texts as spring boards to their "own agenda". Others preach from books and not THE BOOK and still others.....the packaging is very important IMHO. Thus, this begs the question, how can we DO what is biblical if we have not been presented that which is biblical?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Can one worship in a church where he is not given many opportunities to serve in the capacity to which he is called to the fullest? </font><hr></blockquote><p> I could see this if one were JUST visiting a church then YES, but as a regular member of one...NO.