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#50240 Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:38 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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I was recently asked a question on whether or not I would baptize someone.
I later found out that the person was referring to my daughter.
I responded that I believe that Scripture gives the responsibility of baptizing to elders and seeing I am not an elder; I am not qualified.
This person seems to disagree me, so I told them that if she gives me Scripture showing that I am wrong, I would change my understanding.
I am waiting on her answer; but in the mean time seeing it has been quite some time since I have studied this issue. I would freshen myself up on it.
If anyone has any helpful information that would help me. Please mention it.

Thank you
Tom

Tom #50243 Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:03 PM
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Hi
I just received a reply from this person and she included some answers from various web sites. Looking through these sites, basically they are saying that although an elder usually should perform a baptism, there is nothing in Scripture saying that another Christian cannot baptize.
One site said that he as a pastor often lets a father baptize their children with his instruction.

On my own search, I did notice that the WCF say that only elders should baptize. I have looked in the LBCF, but so far haven't been able to find anything on this aspect.

Tom

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The sacraments belong to the CHURCH over which Elders have been given the rule and to whom the "keys of the kingdom" belong, and of which the two sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper are inextricably joined. One of the things baptism signifies is the one being baptized (adult) has broken from the world and joined with the people of God. And before one can be received into membership within the CHURCH, they must be examined in regard to both doctrine and life by those who are given the rule over the CHURCH, i.e., Elders. Thus, only Elders have been given the authority to receive people into the Church and to thereafter administer the sacraments to them.


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Tom #50245 Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:12 PM
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I don't know of anyplace in Scripture that suggests that just anyone can baptize or in the OT, circumcise someone. From what I can see it is an elder who does this.

Here is what the Belgic Confession, Article 34 has to say about Baptism.

We believe and confess that Jesus Christ, who is the end of the law (Rom 10:4), has by His shed blood put an end to every other shedding of blood that one could or would make as an expiation or satisfaction for sins. He has abolished circumcision, which involved blood, and has instituted in its place the sacrament of baptism.1 By baptism we are received into the church of God and set apart from all other peoples and false religions, to be entirely committed to Him2 whose mark and emblem we bear. This serves as a testimony to us that He will be our God and gracious Father for ever.

For that reason He has commanded all those who are His to be baptized with plain water, into the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19). By this He signifies to us that as water washes away the dirt of the body when poured on us, and as water is seen on the body of the baptized when sprinkled on him, so the blood of Christ, by the Holy Spirit, does the same thing internally to the soul.3 It washes and cleanses our soul from sin4 and regenerates us from children of wrath into children of God.5 This is not brought about by the water as such6 but by the sprinkling of the precious blood of the Son of God,7 which is our Red Sea,8 through which we must pass to escape the tyranny of Pharaoh, that is, the devil, and enter into the spiritual land of Canaan.

Thus the ministers on their part give us the sacrament and what is visible, but our Lord gives us what is signified by the sacrament, namely, the invisible gifts and grace. He washes, purges, and cleanses our souls of all filth and unrighteousness,9 renews our hearts and fills them with all comfort, gives us true assurance of His fatherly goodness, clothes us with the new nature, and takes away the old nature with all its works.10

We believe, therefore, that anyone who aspires to eternal life ought to be baptized only once.11 Baptism should never be repeated, for we cannot be born twice. Moreover, baptism benefits us not only when the water is on us and when we receive it, but throughout our whole life. For that reason we reject the error of the Anabaptists, who are not content with a single baptism received only once, and who also condemn the baptism of the little children of believers. We believe that these children ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as infants were circumcised in Israel on the basis of the same promises which are now made to our children.12 Indeed, Christ shed His blood to wash the children of believers just as much as He shed it for adults.13 Therefore they ought to receive the sign and sacrament of what Christ has done for them, as the Lord commanded in the law that a lamb was to be offered shortly after children were born.14 This was a sacrament of the passion and death of Jesus Christ. Because baptism has the same meaning for our children as circumcision had for the people of Israel, Paul calls baptism the circumcision of Christ (Col 2:11).

1Col 2:11 2 Ex 12:48; 1 Pt 2:9 3Mt 3:11; 1 Cor 12:13 4Acts 22:16; Heb 9:14; 1 Jn 1:7; Rev 1:5b 5 Tit 3:5 6 1 Pt 3:21 7Rom 6:3; 1 Pt 1:2, 2:24 8 1 Cor 10:1-4 9 1 Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26 10Rom 6:4; Gal 3:27 11Mt 28:19; Eph 4:5 12Gen 17:10-12; Mt 19:14; Acts 2:39 13 1 Cor 7:14 14Lev 12:6



Tom #50255 Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:47 PM
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Thank you for your answers, for the most part I agree with what you have written. Especially the part about the sacraments belonging to the Church. One thing occurred to me as I was reading through your answers, is seeing how that person is a credo-baptist; it might be helpful to have a Reformed Baptiist perspective.
I.e something from Reformed Baptist confession. I realize that you are both Paedos, but On this aspect I would be surprised to find out different.

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The LBCF 1689 might have something in or around #34 (my guess) regarding ordinances. You must have one available. Let me know what you find.


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I did find out what the LBCF 1689 says and basically it agrees with the WCF that the baptism is a Church ordinance and as such should be administered by an elder. It does however leave room for someone such as a deacon to administer baptism, as long as he is under the authority of an elder. That room, so I have been told as an example is when the person being baptised is too big for the pastor to baptise.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:17 PM.
Tom #50274 Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:19 PM
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Tom,
I'm curious about the information concerning the ability of a deacon to baptize.Did that come from printed information out of a reformed Baptist church? I am a reformed Baptist now, after leaving the SBC this past year, and the copy of the 1689 LBCF that I have only allows elders to perform baptisms.


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Alright, that information came from correspondence with someone from Founders organization.
I think it is alright if I post part of that conversation.
Quote
The 1689 has a statement that protects the administration but is not as narrow as the WCF. In Chapter 28: Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, Para. 2 says:

These holy appointments are to be administered by those only who are qualified and thereunto called, according to the commission of Christ.

Notice that it doesn't say ministers specifically. I think this is significant in that it is a deliberate rewording of the WCF at this point. To help us understand what the authors had in mind, I think we can refer to their view of the preaching of the Word (26: Of the Church, Para. 11):

Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.

Notice that this ministry is not restricted to pastors but is still regulated by the church. I have asked a number of Reformed Baptist pastors over the years about this, and the general view has been what I articulated below.
I must admit that when I read the words of that quote from 1689, the words “who are qualified and thereunto called,”; my thought didn’t go to deacons, they went to elders. However, that doesn’t seem like it is the opinion of the so called experts within Reformed Baptist circles.
I think the most important aspects are that baptism is an ordinance of the Church and that it should be administered under the authority of an elder.
Tom

Last edited by Tom; Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:58 PM.
Tom #50278 Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 PM
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Tom,
Thanks for your answer. I did speak with my pastor about this issue and he told me that as far as he and his circle of acquaintances are concerned the 1689 LBCF means, elders.
It just appears to me that if deacons had been intended it would have been easy enough to have said that.


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I understand and favor that interpretation, but it also makes me wonder why the words deviate from the WCF. In case you didn't know, on many issues the 1689 LBCF, almost mirrors the WCF except when it comes to Baptism and Ecleciology(sp?).
Some Reformed Baptist commentators think in this case that difference shows something significant. Mainly the example I quoted where the deacon baptizes someone while remaining under the authority of an elder.
As I said I think that is a bit of a stretch but I certainly can understand it. Some elders may be physically unable to perform a baptism of a large person.

Last edited by Tom; Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:21 PM.
Tom #50288 Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
As I said I think that is a bit of a stretch but I certainly can understand it. Some elders may be physically unable to perform a baptism of a large person.
Aspersion or Effusion would work just as nicely. evilgrin


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Aspersion or Effusion, with all due respect, not in a Baptist church.


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Tom #50294 Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:51 PM
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It would conserve on a lot of water Sojourner wink


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When my grandson came to a saving knowledge of Christ a couple of years ago he asked to be baptized in the pond on our farm. The pastor agreed and that became one of the highlights of my life. The pastor came in his regular clothes,(no waders) outdoors, using whatever water that was available, just like the old days. [Linked Image]

Last edited by chestnutmare; Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:15 PM.

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