Tom, there is no way on Gods earth that I would even consider seeking membership to a baptist congregation ! Baptism is a big deal IMHO .<br><br>howard
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Tom, there is no way on Gods earth that I would even consider seeking membership to a baptist congregation ! Baptism is a big deal IMHO .
Howard this is indeed a bold statement. Thus, you consider Baptism more important then the proper preaching of God's Word? Do you consider Baptism more important that a correct view of Calvinistic Soteriology ? If there were two churches in your homes town that were available for you to have fellowship it:
1. Presbyterian that had the right view of Baptism, but who had left Calvinistic Soteriology and joined it with Arminianism, or
2. A Baptist Church that had, let us say, Charles Spurgeon as their pastor (not that he was right on everything either)
Where would you choose to attend?
Howard,
You have made BAPTISM the center of your theology instead of the ENTIRE COUNSEL OF GOD. This is sin. While Baptism is an important issue and I have vigorously argued it here and elsewhere I have learned that it is not the central issue of the Gospel. I have also learned (ing) that individuals need time to understand some things, but banging them over the head with a book on I am right and you are wrong will not help them learn the truth. Many individuals need to get their eschatology correct before ever beginning to understand Baptism. Others have never heard of Covenant Theology, even the term is foreign to them. Many here have probably never read people like Berkhof, Murray, Ridderbos, Kline, Clowney, etc. to understand more fully what the Scriptures teach. People need to be allowed to grow in grace and truth. It does not come over night.
You are correct Joe. I wont be talking baptism for a while .<br><br>I would attend Spurgeons place but i would never seek membership there.<br><br>Is their such a thing as an arminian presbyterian ?<br><br>howard
Pilgrim,<br><br>Very simply, what drives me to believe that we are to treat our young offspring prior to making a credible profession of faith as ones that Christ died for is the fact that they are to be baptized. When the apostle addresses the saints, or when the prophets addressed Israel, it seems rather apparent to me that they did not exclude any who had received covenant status through the sign and seal of the day. <br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron
"Is their such a thing as an arminian presbyterian?"<br><br>Provavly are a lot of those in the PCUSA.<br><br>Plus, I have met people still in the PCUSA who believe they were born Christian, believe in baptismal regeneration, and believe that the writers of the Bible got some things right and some things wrong.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Is their such a thing as an arminian presbyterian ?<br><br>You would be surprised what is in some churches. I know of one USA Church that will not sing ANY songs in the hymnal that has the word--get this--GOD in it (I guess they are using comic books to fill in)--...see sbc_and_reformed's post!<br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Mustn't one be regenerated in order to have an effectual prayer? In allowing little ones to pray you are giving them a status, which you deny in doctrine. As for the neighbor across the street, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
You cannot be a Christian or a believer UNTIL you are born again. A child can pray, but until they are born again, their prayers are no different than the pagan child's across the street! God gives us the gift of repentance and faith when we are regenerated. We cannot truly pray without the help of the Holy Spirit. We are dead spiritually before God gives us that new life. We are to teach our children about the Lord before they are born again. We teach them to sing His praises and worship Him even if they are not yet able to do it "in Spirit and inTruth". We are to do this even before this is a spiritual reality to them. These things can be used by God to bring them to the truth.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]If someone is elect, then Christ died for his sins whether they are yet regenerate or not. Accordingly, the question we should be discussing is not whether one is regenerated and in the kingdom, but rather whether God would have us say to the child of a professing believing parent that Christ died for his sins.
It is not wise to assure someone that Chist died for their sins because it may not be true. But it is always right to share the Gospel with someone and show them that they need a Savior and that God commands them to repent. Yes Christ died for the sins of the elect, but we don't know who is elect for sure.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Obviously, you being a baptist don't think that infants should be baptized. So, it is quite consistent of you to think that infants of professing believers should not be considered ones for whom Christ died.
I consider them to be ones who should be prayed for diligently until they are safe in the Lord's hand. I consider them to be ones the Lord would have us diligently teach. Children desire to please their parents and compliance in outward things can be mistaken for faith. I consider it a great responsibility to pray for their salvation and pray that they are among those for whom Christ died. Susan
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
In reply to:[color:"blue"]If someone is elect, then Christ died for his sins whether they are yet regenerate or not. Accordingly, the question we should be discussing is not whether one is regenerated and in the kingdom, but rather whether God would have us say to the child of a professing believing parent that Christ died for his sins.
RonD, this is where Susan and others have problems with your presumed regeneration, or presumed election, if you desire (one must be presumed if the other is presumed). How can you know the mind of God? How do you know who the elect are? The simple fact is you DO NOT know who the elect are and neither should you presume it!
It is God’s eternal decision whom He loves and whom He hates (Rom 9:13). It is God’s eternal decision on whom He will have mercy and on whom He will have compassion (Rom 9:15). It is God’s eternal decision whom He will harden (Rom 9:18). It is God’s eternal decision whom He will make a vessel of honor and dishonor (Rom 9:21). Thus, it is not of you that willeth your child to be elect, but of God that sheweth mercy (Rom 9:16). An infant maybe saved at some time (?), but it is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13). God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11). If you presume regeneration and in the final estate of things you are incorrect then you have become a liar to your very own child, not to mention God himself.
To presume, against Scripture, that one is elect just because they are the child of a believer is not correct. The Old Testament is full of examples of people that were a part of the covenant, but were never elect (Rom 2:28-29). I do concur that children of believers are very special and receive immeasurable benefits (which in-turn they are responsible for) from hearing the Word of God preached, fellowshipping with others believers, and living in a Christian home, et. al., but this does not guarantee their salvation and thus you should not presume it. Participation in the outer covenant does not guarantee membership in the internal covenant. Just because an infant is a member of the visible Church does not make them a member of the invisible Church. Infant baptism is not based on the possibility that the Holy Spirit may have regenerated the infant before it is baptized, but on the reality of the covenant.
To presume that one is regenerate may run into many problems. One of the major ones being:
To make of such presumption the rule of the believer's practice in dealing with his children is downright a form of Antinomianism no less than in other matters, even if it conceals itself under the mask of excessive zeal for covenant doctrine.[/LIST] God's revealed will is that the law and gospel are to be presented to sinners. Is your child a sinner? Calling for faith and repentance, is the rule to be observed in the instruction of children. This rule, clearly established in Scripture, supposes that those who are addressed are to be regarded as sinners, not as those justified from eternity and regenerated from the womb.
If God has not promised to regenerate infants through the waters of baptism, how much less has He promised that our children will be regenerate prior to their baptism! Archibald Alexander is decisive:
Although the grace of God may be communicated to a human soul, at any period of its existence, in this world, yet the fact manifestly is, that very few are renewed before the exercise of reason commences; and not many in early childhood…. The education of children should proceed on the principle that they are in an unregenerate state, until evidences of piety clearly appear, in which case they should be sedulously cherished and nurtured.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]It is not wise to assure someone that Chist died for their sins because it may not be true.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Susan,<br><br>Then it was unwise for the apostle Paul to tell the church at Corinth that Christ died for their sins (1 Corinthians 15). Paul was addressing the elect, but he was treating the visible church as such. Otherwise, he would have been speaking strictly in the abstract; after all, there was not a 100% guarantee that there were any true believers at Corinth, though he did say that Christ did for their sins. In other words, the apostle treated the members of the visible churches as those for whom Christ died.<br><br>I would imagine that you would tell someone that you thought was a believer that Christ died for his sins – even though it might not be true. If so, then your point would seem to be not so much that it is wrong to do so categorically, but that we should only do so when someone actually professes Christ, which brings us full circle. The evidence that a child is born of believing parents does not satisfy you with respect to your treating such a one as child whom Christ died for. I, on the other hand, would argue that the apostle Paul addressed the baptized community as saints and that we should do the same. Pragmatically speaking, there is evidence simply by virtue of the child being born within a Christian home. Notwithstanding, my view is not based upon what I feel with resepct to the subjective evidence, but upon the precedence that I believe Scripture records for us.<br><br>I must leave this discussion now.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]RonD, this is where Susan and others have problems with your presumed regeneration, or presumed election, if you desire (one must be presumed if the other is presumed). How can you know the mind of God? How do you know who the elect are? The simple fact is you DO NOT know who the elect are and neither should you presume it! </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Hi Joe,<br><br>You are correct, I do not know the mind of God. However, you must admit that we are to at least treast certain adults as Christians for whom Christ died -- even without knowing for sure. Accordingly, the question does not hinge upon presuming to know who the true elect are, for nobody knows that but God. Moreover, there is no presumption on my part that one is regenerate. I could understand if someone accused me of presuming that the children of believing parents are elect, but not that they are regenerate at birth, baptism or anything of the like. However, even that assessment of my position would be faulty, for I do not even "presume" that one is elect. I am treating someone as I believe God would have it, no more no less.<br><br>Please think about it this way. Given what you have said above, you should not treat anyone as one for whom Christ died. However, I'm sure you do treat many people as part of the church. I would suggest that you have no problem treating people as sheep for whom Christ died. Your issue is with treating baptized children as such prior to a profession of faith. Moreover, when you treat adults as Christians, are you being presumptious? Certainly not. You are doing what you believe you are instructed to do by the word of God; or, you are acting strictly upon what you believe is enough evidence to persuade you. In either case, you are treating people a certain way without truly knowing the reality of the situation. <br><br>If nothing else, please appreciate that the basis for my practice is the precedence I believe that is set forth in Scripture.<br><br>I think that my position is clearly set forth in this thread, so I would prefer to leave this discussion at this time.<br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>Ron<br><br><br>
In reply to:If nothing else, please appreciate that the basis for my practice is the precedence I believe that is set forth in Scripture. I think that my position is clearly set forth in this thread, so I would prefer to leave this discussion at this time.
RonD, Please do not feel I am pressuring you and I apologize if you have taken what I have posted otherwise. I just simply disagree with your assertions, which of course is my right. I desire to understand this from the biblical point of view and thus am interacting on the subject…as I am sure you are as well.
In reply to:I Please think about it this way. Given what you have said above, you should not treat anyone as one for whom Christ died. However, I'm sure you do treat many people as part of the church.
RonD, I believe in treating people in a Gospel manner. If someone tells me (1) they are a Christian (2) and are demonstrating the fruits thereof, then I no longer (1) attempt to win them to Christ, and (2) pray rather for their sanctification vs. their salvation. Thus, I do treat people differently in the visible Church and I believe you do as well. Thus, I presume no ones election or regenerate state, but rather, according to Scripture, listen/look for their confession of the Lord Jesus accompanied with the works there of (Rom 10:9-10; Eph 2:8-10, et. al.). If you speak to your children about the saving knowledge of Christ to help them understand that Christ died for them, that they must have faith, repentance, et. al., then you too do not believe in presumptive regeneration, but if you do not speak to your children with this hope, expectation, and consideration then IMHO you are not obeying the Gospel.
