The Highway
Posted By: evangelist Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Tue May 08, 2007 6:57 PM
I have heard this and read some parts of a very long article about tbn and the evangelist false gospels.
Sence I support their ministry , and have my own tv broadcast , I woud like to discuss this more intensive, with maybe those who lack knowledge , or have a false understanding.
Posted By: Paul_S It would help if you answered a simple question - Tue May 08, 2007 8:51 PM
Before beginning the discussion, are you willing to say that you are possibly among those who lack knowledge , or have a false understanding about the nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and if shown to be so from the clear and authoritative Word, are you open to correction in this matter?
Posted By: Robin Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Wed May 09, 2007 12:36 AM
While many answers to your question have already been supplied in links provided in other threads, let me just offer a summary of why we maintain that most of the TBN teachers are promoting "a different gospel:"

First, they believe in a different god than the God of the Bible. Their god is dependent upon the will and faith of fallen creatures. His will can be thwarted by the faithlessness of men. The God of the Bible is not dependent upon the will, faith, words, nor actions of His creatures. The God of the Bible is sovereign, and His desires and purpose cannot be thwarted.

Second, these teachers re-define faith, describing it as a neutral "force" which can be employed by any sentient being either for good or evil. The Bible defines faith as a quality of God which is comunicated to those chosen from among fallen Man. It is entirely a gift, given entirely at His sole discretion and pleasure for His own purpose and glory. It is not something which is innate to all men, nor something that can be conjured up at one's own discretion, nor something that can be imparted or cultured by repetition (like a mantra) or by any other form of religious oblation. Faith, according to the Scriptures, comes only as a gifted response to God's word, preached and heard by hearts that have been regenerated. The new birth is from Above. Not from within.

Thirdly, they teach that God is obligated to show mercy to anyone who asks. The Bible teaches exactly the opposite. God is under no obligation to save anyone. And if mercy was obligatory, it could not be called mercy at all! But the TBN teachers place Man in God's place as sovereign ("free will!") and put God at the mercy of our choices. Romans chapter nine (among many other portions of God's infallible word) clearly demonstrates that even the most wicked of men and all their plans are determined from eternity by Almighty God. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and gives justice to whom He will.

Word of Faith teachings are aimed at teaching people to manipulate ("enable") God into doing stuff for us, giving us what we want, and granting our desires. The Bible teaches the opposite: Dying to self, surrender, and sacrifice. Not giving in order to get, but giving out of sheer joy from hearts that have been made whole. It is we who should seek His desires, not the other way around. TBN's teachers sek to reverse the roles of God and Man, putting God in the place of a servant and portraying God and Satan as nearly equal opponents competing for the souls of men - with Man's will being the deciding factor.

TBN teachings are a damnable mixture of gnosticism with "Christian Science". They are designed to appeal to the twisted hopes of men who are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, from eternity, completely at the mercy of a holy, sovereign God.

When these teachings prove to be false in the lives of millions, these teachers bully their victims with shame and accusations and even threats. It's never that their teachings are wrong, it's always that we failed to congure up sufficient faith or sufficient obedience or sufficient funds ("seed") to reap the expected harvest of health and wealth and hapiness. And for most folks who have never heard the truth and who think they have tried Christianity and been disappointed, the result is abandonment to the world.

Been there, done that, got the teeshirt.

-Robin
Quote
Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel?


Here's a few reasons from Kenneth Copeland:

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)

"God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one".(Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988)

God is someone "very much like you and me....A being that stands somewhere around 6'2," 6'3," that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand]span nine inches across." (Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body I, side 1.)

“The earth we live on is a "copy of the mother planet" (Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001)

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith," (Kenneth Copeland, Freedom from Fear (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1983), 11.)

"Faith is God's source of power" (Kenneth Copeland, Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1982), 8.)

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer." (Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3.)

"The Spirit of God spoke to me, and He said "Son, realize this" Now follow me in this, don't let your tradition trip you up. He said "Think this way. A twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible..I said "What?" He said "A born-again man defeated Satan - the first-born of many brethren defeated him." He said "You are the very image, and the very copy of that one." I said "Goodness Gracious, saints alive." I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said "Well you don? mean - You couldn't dare mean that I could have done the same thing?" He said "Oh yeah. If you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did you could've done the same thing cause you're a re-born man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification" (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989, audio tape #00-0202, side 2)
Quote
Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel?


And here's a few more from Benny Hinn

"Poverty comes from Hell. Prosperity comes from Heaven. Adam had complete dominion over the earth and all it contains. A. Adam could fly like a bird. B. Adam could swim underwater and breathe like a fish. Adam went to the moon. Adam walked on water. Adam was a super being, He was the first superman that lived. Adam had dominion over the sun, moon & stars. Christians do not have Christ in their hearts. Sow a big seed, when you confess it, you are activating the supernatural forces of God." (Benny Hinn, Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990)

"When you don't give money, it shows that you have the devil's nature." (Benny Hinn, Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded 4/21/91)

"He [Jesus] who is righteous by choice said, 'The only way I can stop sin is by Me becoming it. I can't just stop it by letting it touch Me; I and it must become one.' Hear this! He who is the nature of God became the nature of Satan where He became sin!" (Benny Hinn, TBN, 12/1/90).

"Christians are "Little Messiah's and "little gods" on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say "I am a God-man....This spirit-man within me is a God-man..." say "I'm born of heaven-a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? "I walk in the realm of the supernatural." Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you, for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, "everything I ever want is in me already." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 1990)

"Man, I feel revelation knowledge already coming on me here. Life your hands. Something new is going to happen here today. I felt it just as I waled down here. Holy Spirit, take over in the name of Jesus…God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person; and He is a triune being by Himself separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost. Say, what did you say? Hear it, hear it, hear it. See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is aperson, God the Holy Ghost is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by Himself. If I can shock you—and maybe I should—there’s nine of them. Huh, what did you say? Let me explain: God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul, and his own personal spirit-body. You say, Huh, I never heard that. Well you think you’re in this church to hear things you’ve heard for the last 50 years?" (Benny Hinn, TBN (October 3, 1991).

"God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost—three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work—and, may I add, each one of them possess His own spirit-body. You don’t like it?" (Benny Hinn, Praise the Lord program on TBN (October 23, 1992).

"Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by becoming one in nature with him. You say, ‘What did you say? What blasphemy is this?’ No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin. Sin is the nature of hell. Sin is what made Satan…It was sin that made Satan. Jesus said, "I’ll be sin! I’ll go to the lowest place! I’ll go to the origin of it! I won’t just take part in it, I’ll be the totality of it!" When Jesus became sin, sir, He took it from A to Z and said, "No more!" Think about this: He became flesh, that flesh might become like Him. He became death, so dying man can live. He became sin, so sinners can be righteous in Him. He became one with the nature of Satan, so all those who had the nature of Satan can partake of the nature of God." (Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn program on TBN (December 15, 1990).
Posted By: Adopted Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Wed May 09, 2007 10:17 PM
Robin,

What you have listed is so true, but there is so much more for anyone to look and see. Personally I prefer to just refer to the overwhelming majority of "preachers" on TBN as "heretical maniacs". I think Phil Johnson, on his website, says it best:

Quote
TBN
"The largest Christian television network in the world"—unfortunately. The spirit of Tetzel is alive and well on cable TV. Bad doctrine, spurious claims of divine revelation, mawkish emotions, gaudy makeup, and tawdry decorations all contribute to the unique ambience that is TBN. To borrow some biblical language, TBN is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (cf. Rev. 18:2).

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat May 12, 2007 4:41 PM
Quote
Paul_S said:
Before beginning the discussion, are you willing to say that you are possibly among those who lack knowledge , or have a false understanding about the nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and if shown to be so from the clear and authoritative Word, are you open to correction in this matter?

Yes , because I have the fruits of the spirts, and I have a meek spirit, and long -suffering with patience.
Shalom
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat May 12, 2007 4:49 PM
I want to thank everyone for their personal opinions.
I would like to know if they are teaching another gospel like JHW or mormons,and a false gospel like Islam?
Do they come against the death burial, and resurrection to be teaching another gospel?
Do they teach against the trinity , and the personal relationship with Jesus Christ ?
Do they teach against the final authority of the bible?
Do they teach another gospel about the nlood of Jesus?
Do they teach we should have christian pride, and teach we must be first putting me, myself, and I before others even in understanding , and beliefs as such?

Shalom!
Posted By: Adopted Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat May 12, 2007 5:19 PM
Quote
evangelist said:
I want to thank everyone for their personal opinions.
I would like to know if they are teaching another gospel like JHW or mormons,and a false gospel like Islam?
Do they come against the death burial, and resurrection to be teaching another gospel?
Do they teach against the trinity , and the personal relationship with Jesus Christ ?
Do they teach against the final authority of the bible?
Do they teach another gospel about the nlood of Jesus?
Do they teach we should have christian pride, and teach we must be first putting me, myself, and I before others even in understanding , and beliefs as such?

Have you read the other posts in this thread so far, especiallly Robin's? First, please answer the post by Paul and then please read Robin's post and ask questions or make comments about what he has posted.

You have asked six questions and the answer to each and every one is YES.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sun May 13, 2007 5:01 PM
Quote
Robin said:
While many answers to your question have already been supplied in links provided in other threads, let me just offer a summary of why we maintain that most of the TBN teachers are promoting "a different gospel:"

First, they believe in a different god than the God of the Bible. Their god is dependent upon the will and faith of fallen creatures. His will can be thwarted by the faithlessness of men. The God of the Bible is not dependent upon the will, faith, words, nor actions of His creatures. The God of the Bible is sovereign, and His desires and purpose cannot be thwarted.

Second, these teachers re-define faith, describing it as a neutral "force" which can be employed by any sentient being either for good or evil. The Bible defines faith as a quality of God which is comunicated to those chosen from among fallen Man. It is entirely a gift, given entirely at His sole discretion and pleasure for His own purpose and glory. It is not something which is innate to all men, nor something that can be conjured up at one's own discretion, nor something that can be imparted or cultured by repetition (like a mantra) or by any other form of religious oblation. Faith, according to the Scriptures, comes only as a gifted response to God's word, preached and heard by hearts that have been regenerated. The new birth is from Above. Not from within.

Thirdly, they teach that God is obligated to show mercy to anyone who asks. The Bible teaches exactly the opposite. God is under no obligation to save anyone. And if mercy was obligatory, it could not be called mercy at all! But the TBN teachers place Man in God's place as sovereign ("free will!") and put God at the mercy of our choices. Romans chapter nine (among many other portions of God's infallible word) clearly demonstrates that even the most wicked of men and all their plans are determined from eternity by Almighty God. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and gives justice to whom He will.

Word of Faith teachings are aimed at teaching people to manipulate ("enable") God into doing stuff for us, giving us what we want, and granting our desires. The Bible teaches the opposite: Dying to self, surrender, and sacrifice. Not giving in order to get, but giving out of sheer joy from hearts that have been made whole. It is we who should seek His desires, not the other way around. TBN's teachers sek to reverse the roles of God and Man, putting God in the place of a servant and portraying God and Satan as nearly equal opponents competing for the souls of men - with Man's will being the deciding factor.

TBN teachings are a damnable mixture of gnosticism with "Christian Science". They are designed to appeal to the twisted hopes of men who are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, from eternity, completely at the mercy of a holy, sovereign God.

When these teachings prove to be false in the lives of millions, these teachers bully their victims with shame and accusations and even threats. It's never that their teachings are wrong, it's always that we failed to congure up sufficient faith or sufficient obedience or sufficient funds ("seed") to reap the expected harvest of health and wealth and hapiness. And for most folks who have never heard the truth and who think they have tried Christianity and been disappointed, the result is abandonment to the world.

Been there, done that, got the teeshirt.

-Robin

Is all this your personal opinions, or some copy and paste from someone else who might be anti christian tv person, or groups?
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sun May 13, 2007 5:08 PM
Quote
BradJHammond said:
Quote
Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel?


Here's a few reasons from Kenneth Copeland:

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)

"God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one".(Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988)

God is someone "very much like you and me....A being that stands somewhere around 6'2," 6'3," that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand]span nine inches across." (Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body I, side 1.)

“The earth we live on is a "copy of the mother planet" (Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001)

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith," (Kenneth Copeland, Freedom from Fear (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1983), 11.)

"Faith is God's source of power" (Kenneth Copeland, Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1982), 8.)

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer." (Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3.)

"The Spirit of God spoke to me, and He said "Son, realize this" Now follow me in this, don't let your tradition trip you up. He said "Think this way. A twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible..I said "What?" He said "A born-again man defeated Satan - the first-born of many brethren defeated him." He said "You are the very image, and the very copy of that one." I said "Goodness Gracious, saints alive." I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said "Well you don? mean - You couldn't dare mean that I could have done the same thing?" He said "Oh yeah. If you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did you could've done the same thing cause you're a re-born man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification" (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989, audio tape #00-0202, side 2)

BradJHammond

Are you really trying to understand what Copeland has said?
Are you reading what you posted with a open heart?
Some how I think you are taking him completly out of context, beside the humor you are also missing and thinking he is being serious.
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sun May 13, 2007 5:17 PM
Quote
Adopted said:
Robin,

What you have listed is so true, but there is so much more for anyone to look and see. Personally I prefer to just refer to the overwhelming majority of "preachers" on TBN as "heretical maniacs". I think Phil Johnson, on his website, says it best:

Quote
TBN
"The largest Christian television network in the world"—unfortunately. The spirit of Tetzel is alive and well on cable TV. Bad doctrine, spurious claims of divine revelation, mawkish emotions, gaudy makeup, and tawdry decorations all contribute to the unique ambience that is TBN. To borrow some biblical language, TBN is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (cf. Rev. 18:2).

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Re:18:1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Has this verse above already happen or is this a time past, present , or future verse, maybe after the tribulations??

Re:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Alot of people have tried to interpretate this verse that it is for the Catholic church, not a TBN or Christian group.
Posted By: Robin Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sun May 13, 2007 6:33 PM
Quote
evangelist said:
Is all this your personal opinions, or some copy and paste from someone else who might be anti christian tv person, or groups?

As I said above, been there, done that. I was in that movement for over 20 years. I was a CBN and TBN "phone counselor" for some of that time. I went to their schools (Word of Faith) and taught their doctrines for several years. I prophesied, cast out demons, laid hands on the sick and saw them recover - all the above. I was on my way to being "a general in God's army... called to the ministry from my mother's womb" according to one well-known Scottish evangelist... all by the age of fourteen.

I'm here to tell you from experience that none of it was from God. Every bit of it was fabricated either by ego, ambitious imagination, and much of it directly communicated to me by demons.

So it is with every single "evangelist" you have named in this thread.

-Robin
Posted By: Adopted Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Mon May 14, 2007 12:00 AM
Quote
evangelist said:
Re:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Alot of people have tried to interpretate this verse that it is for the Catholic church, not a TBN or Christian group.

I believe you're missing the point. It really doesn't matter whether you interpret "Babylon the great" as the Roman Catholic Church or as any and all antichristian religions that presents a false gospel. The point is that nearly all of the "preachers" on TBN do preach another (and very deceptive Arminian) gospel of works or "free will" righteousness. This is especially true of the preachers you mentioned. Nearly all of these preachers believe or attempt to deceive others into believing that they are "special" in God's eyes and that He speaks to them personally, directly and outside of the Scripture.

They all live in multi-million dollar houses (sometimes two or more) and wear thousand dollar suits and dresses. They have jet airplanes and have $100,000 automobiles. For the most part they get their money by contributions from very poor unlearned people who watch them on TV and believe in the heresies that they teach. And these so-called preachers are sure to remind them that the more they give, the more God will "bless" them. Many thousands of these people are shut-ins and/or widows with only Social Security checks.

Quote
I have raised Him up in righteousness, and I will direct His ways: He shall build my city, and He shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts. [Isaiah 45:13, KJV]

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Tue May 15, 2007 1:49 PM
Quote
Robin said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Is all this your personal opinions, or some copy and paste from someone else who might be anti christian tv person, or groups?

As I said above, been there, done that. I was in that movement for over 20 years. I was a CBN and TBN "phone counselor" for some of that time. I went to their schools (Word of Faith) and taught their doctrines for several years. I prophesied, cast out demons, laid hands on the sick and saw them recover - all the above. I was on my way to being "a general in God's army... called to the ministry from my mother's womb" according to one well-known Scottish evangelist... all by the age of fourteen.

I'm here to tell you from experience that none of it was from God. Every bit of it was fabricated either by ego, ambitious imagination, and much of it directly communicated to me by demons.

So it is with every single "evangelist" you have named in this thread.

-Robin

I wounder if God knows what is happening behind the scences, and maybe you should inform God, sence you been there , and done that.
I guess Evangelists , and all ministrys is exactly the same, like you posted directed and supported by demons. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Tue May 15, 2007 1:53 PM
Quote
Adopted said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Re:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Alot of people have tried to interpretate this verse that it is for the Catholic church, not a TBN or Christian group.

I believe you're missing the point. It really doesn't matter whether you interpret "Babylon the great" as the Roman Catholic Church or as any and all antichristian religions that presents a false gospel. The point is that nearly all of the "preachers" on TBN do preach another (and very deceptive Arminian) gospel of works or "free will" righteousness. This is especially true of the preachers you mentioned. Nearly all of these preachers believe or attempt to deceive others into believing that they are "special" in God's eyes and that He speaks to them personally, directly and outside of the Scripture.

They all live in multi-million dollar houses (sometimes two or more) and wear thousand dollar suits and dresses. They have jet airplanes and have $100,000 automobiles. For the most part they get their money by contributions from very poor unlearned people who watch them on TV and believe in the heresies that they teach. And these so-called preachers are sure to remind them that the more they give, the more God will "bless" them. Many thousands of these people are shut-ins and/or widows with only Social Security checks.

Quote
I have raised Him up in righteousness, and I will direct His ways: He shall build my city, and He shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts. [Isaiah 45:13, KJV]

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Have research how they got rich in the Lord?
Do you know mostly 75% of these preachers were raise out of the ghetto , and poverty families, sick, depressed, busted and disgusted lives , before they got blessed, and proved God to His written Word?

I know alot of people who would wish, and pray pastors and Evnagelists should be so poor like Jesus that they can't even buy a bus ticket to get to church to be able to serve God.
Most pastor I know don't like poverty, and just having just enough, they like to live in aboundance so they can be a blessing to other and don't starve to death, like other poor pastors did in the past.
Posted By: Tom Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Tue May 15, 2007 5:23 PM
Quote
evangelist said:
Quote
Robin said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Is all this your personal opinions, or some copy and paste from someone else who might be anti christian tv person, or groups?

As I said above, been there, done that. I was in that movement for over 20 years. I was a CBN and TBN "phone counselor" for some of that time. I went to their schools (Word of Faith) and taught their doctrines for several years. I prophesied, cast out demons, laid hands on the sick and saw them recover - all the above. I was on my way to being "a general in God's army... called to the ministry from my mother's womb" according to one well-known Scottish evangelist... all by the age of fourteen.

I'm here to tell you from experience that none of it was from God. Every bit of it was fabricated either by ego, ambitious imagination, and much of it directly communicated to me by demons.

So it is with every single "evangelist" you have named in this thread.

-Robin

I wounder if God knows what is happening behind the scences, and maybe you should inform God, sence you been there , and done that.
I guess Evangelists , and all ministrys is exactly the same, like you posted directed and supported by demons. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

From your reply, I am really wondering if you are interested in finding out the truth. It isn't that you are not free to disagree with Robin; it is just that when you disagree you should at least do it respectfully and with proof.
In the way you did it, you have basically called Robin a liar.
Having been in that movement myself I know how strongly they can hold someone. So maybe part of the reason for your response is because of that.

I want to ask you a question related to false gospel.

Is the following the true gospel or not?

(May not be exact quote because it is from memory) "When you get the Holy Ghost in your life, He doesn't just come to reside in you. You actually become the Holy Ghost!" This statement was made by either Kenneth Copeland, or Kenneth Hagin.

One thing I notice about many in the Word of Faith movement is that although they say they believe in the Trinity, when they actually get into what the Trinity actually is, it is a lot different than the Trinity that the Christian Church has always believed in.
If you request it, I (or someone else) can provide an example.

At any rate, even you must admit that when you compare the gospel preached by Word of Faith ministers against the gospel preached by ministries such as The Highway, there is a huge difference.
So much so that one must choose which one they believe is the true biblical gospel.

Tom
Posted By: Wes Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Tue May 15, 2007 6:03 PM
Quote
evangelist said:

Have research how they got rich in the Lord?

Do you know mostly 75% of these preachers were raise out of the ghetto , and poverty families, sick, depressed, busted and disgusted lives , before they got blessed, and proved God to His written Word?

I know alot of people who would wish, and pray pastors and Evnagelists should be so poor like Jesus that they can't even buy a bus ticket to get to church to be able to serve God.

Most pastor I know don't like poverty, and just having just enough, they like to live in aboundance so they can be a blessing to other and don't starve to death, like other poor pastors did in the past.

When you say "proved God to His written Word" is that the same as some say "name it and claim it?"

No one I know would want to see their pastor living in poverty. To make an accusation that people actually pray that their pastor would be poor is ridiculous. Whether a pastor is from the ghetto or not his success in the work of ministry should not be measured by riches. The real question should be "is he true to God's Word or is he a false teacher?"

Evangelist, you have received many responses in this thread from people who have tried to help you see the qualities that are needed to be a faithful minister of God's Word. However, you keep defending those who are clealy false teachers. In an effort to address what defines a false teacher I'm enclosing the following article written by Thomas Brooks. What he wrote back in the sevententh century is still applicable today.

7 Characteristics of false Teachers by Thomas Brooks (1608-1680)

That Satan labours might and main, by false teachers, which are his messengers and ambassadors, to deceive, delude, and for ever undo the precious souls of men (Acts 20:28-30; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Eph. 4:14; 2 Tim. 3:4-6; Titus 1:11,12; 2 Peter 2:18,19): "I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err" (Jer. 23:13). "The prophets make my people to err" (Micah 3:5). They seduce them, and carry them out of the right way into by-paths and blind thickets of error, blasphemy, and wickedness, where they are lost forever. "Beware of false prophets, for they come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Mat. 7:15). These lick and suck the blood of souls: "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision" (Phil. 3:2). These kiss and kill; these cry, Peace, peace, till souls fall into everlasting flames, &c., Proverbs 7.

Now, the best way to deliver poor souls from being deluded and destroyed by these messengers of Satan is, to discover them in their colors, that so, being known, poor souls may shun them, and fly from them as from hell itself.

Now you may know them by these characters following:

THE FIRST CHARACTER
False teachers are men-pleasers (Gal. 1:10; 1 Thess. 2:1-4). They preach more to please the ear than to profit the heart: "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophecy no unto us right things: speak to us smooth things; prophecy deceits"' (Isa. 30:10). "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land: the prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means, and my people love to have it so. And what will you do in the end thereof?" (Jer. 5:30,31). They handle holy things rather with wit and dalliance (playful come-on) then with fear and reverence. False teachers are soul-undoers. They are like evil chirurgeons, that skin over the wound, but never heal it. Flattery undid Ahab and Herod, Nero and Alexander. False teachers are hell's greatest enrichers. Non acerba, sed blanda, Not bitter, but flattering words do all the mischief, said Valerian, the Roman emperor. Such smooth teachers are sweet soul-poisoners (Jer. 23:16,17).

THE SECOND CHARACTER
False teachers are notable in casting dirt, scorn, and reproach upon the persons, names, and credits of Christ's most faithful ambassadors. Thus Korah, Dathan, and Abiram charged Moses and Aaron that they took too much upon them, seeing all the congregation was holy (Num. 16:3). You take too much state, too much power, too much honour, too much holiness upon you; for what are you more than others, that you take so much upon you? And so Ahab's false prophets fell foul on good Micaiah, paying of him with blows for want of better reasons (1 Kings 22:10-26). Yea, Paul, that great apostle of the Gentiles, had his ministry undermined and his reputation blasted by false teachers: "For his letters"' say they, "are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak and contemptible" (2 Cor. 10:10). They rather contemn him than admire him; they look upon him as a dunce rather than a doctor. And the same hard measure had our Lord Jesus from the Scribes and Pharisees, who laboured as for life to build their own credit upon the ruins of his reputation. And never did the devil drive a more full trade this way than he does in these days (Matt. 27:63). Oh! the dirt, the filth, the scorn that is thrown upon those whom the world is not worthy. I suppose false teachers mind not that saying of Austin, Quisquis volens detrahit famae, nolens addit mercedi meae, He that willingly takes from my good name, unwillingly adds to my reward.

THE THIRD CHARACTER
False teachers are venters of the devices and visions of their own heads and hearts. "Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent then not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophecy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart (Jer. 14:14); "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Harken not unto the words of the prophets that prophecy unto you; they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer. 23:16). Are there not multitudes in this nation whose visions are but golden delusions, lying vanities, brain-sick phantasies? These are Satan's great benefactors, and such as divine justice will hang up in hell as the greatest malefactors, if the physician of souls does not prevent it.

THE FOURTH CHARACTER
False teachers easily pass over the great and weighty things both of law and gospel, and stand most upon those things that are of the least moment and concernment to the souls of men. "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned; from which some have swerved, have turned aside unto vain jangling, desiring to be teachers of the law, and understand neither what they say nor whereof they affirm" (1 Tim. 1:5-7). "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Matt. 23:2,3). False teachers are nice in the lesser things of the law, and as negligent in the greater. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strife of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (1 Tim. 6:3-5). If such teachers are not hypocrites in grain, I know nothing, Romans 2:22. The earth groans to bear them, and hell is fitted for them, Matt. 24:32.

THE FIFTH CHARACTER
False teachers cover and color their dangerous principles and soul-impostures with very fair speeches and plausible pretenses, with high notions and golden expressions. Many in these days are bewitched and deceived, viz. illumination, revelation, deification, fiery triplicity, &c. As strumpets paint their faces, and deck and perfume their beds, the better to allure and deceive simple souls (Gal. 6:12; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rom. 16:17,18; Mat. 16:6,11,12; 7:15), so false teachers will put a great deal of paint and garnish upon their most dangerous principles and blasphemies, that they may the better deceive and delude poor ignorant souls. They know sugared poison goes down sweetly; they wrap up their pernicious, soul-killing pills in gold.

THE SIXTH CHARACTER
False teachers strive more to win over men to their opinions, than to better them in their conversations. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matt. 24:17). They busy themselves most about men's heads. Their work is not to better men's hearts, and mend their lives; and in this they are very much like their father the devil, who will spare no pains to gain proselytes.

THE SEVENTH CHARACTER
False teachers make merchandise of their followers. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter 2:1-3). They eye your goods more than your good; and mind more the serving of themselves, than the saving of your souls. So they may have your substance, they care not though Satan has your souls (Rev. 18:11-13). That they may the better pick your purse, they will hold forth such principles as are very indulgent to the flesh. False teachers are the great worshippers of the golden calf (Jer. 6:13).

Now, by these characters you may know them, and so shun them, and deliver your souls out of their dangerous snares; which that you may, my prayers shall meet-yours at the throne of grace.

-------------------

Hopefully the list in the above article will help you see this more clearly. Beware of those who are false teachers.... for they will lead you astray.


Wes
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 4:22 PM
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Tom said:
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evangelist said:
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Robin said:
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evangelist said:
Is all this your personal opinions, or some copy and paste from someone else who might be anti christian tv person, or groups?

As I said above, been there, done that. I was in that movement for over 20 years. I was a CBN and TBN "phone counselor" for some of that time. I went to their schools (Word of Faith) and taught their doctrines for several years. I prophesied, cast out demons, laid hands on the sick and saw them recover - all the above. I was on my way to being "a general in God's army... called to the ministry from my mother's womb" according to one well-known Scottish evangelist... all by the age of fourteen.

I'm here to tell you from experience that none of it was from God. Every bit of it was fabricated either by ego, ambitious imagination, and much of it directly communicated to me by demons.

So it is with every single "evangelist" you have named in this thread.

-Robin

I wounder if God knows what is happening behind the scences, and maybe you should inform God, sence you been there , and done that.
I guess Evangelists , and all ministrys is exactly the same, like you posted directed and supported by demons. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

From your reply, I am really wondering if you are interested in finding out the truth. It isn't that you are not free to disagree with Robin; it is just that when you disagree you should at least do it respectfully and with proof.
In the way you did it, you have basically called Robin a liar.
Having been in that movement myself I know how strongly they can hold someone. So maybe part of the reason for your response is because of that.

I want to ask you a question related to false gospel.

Is the following the true gospel or not?

(May not be exact quote because it is from memory) "When you get the Holy Ghost in your life, He doesn't just come to reside in you. You actually become the Holy Ghost!" This statement was made by either Kenneth Copeland, or Kenneth Hagin.

One thing I notice about many in the Word of Faith movement is that although they say they believe in the Trinity, when they actually get into what the Trinity actually is, it is a lot different than the Trinity that the Christian Church has always believed in.
If you request it, I (or someone else) can provide an example.

At any rate, even you must admit that when you compare the gospel preached by Word of Faith ministers against the gospel preached by ministries such as The Highway, there is a huge difference.
So much so that one must choose which one they believe is the true biblical gospel.

Tom

I would say not true , because the gospel should be Christ and the relationship with Him , which these tv station preach.
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 4:31 PM
No it is not a claim it name it, it is this what I mean:
Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

You sure posted alot of scriptures.

2Co:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

But I think alot of people don't know that not all are not spiritually led.
Posted By: Adopted Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 5:39 PM
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evangelist said:
But I think alot of people don't know that not all are not spiritually led.

I'm becoming of the rapid opinion that you wish to "evangelize alot" without understanding, nor with the slightest respect for those with whom you are "talking, and criticizing alot" to?

Hip-Hop, TBN and rap music is much like this. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: Wes Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 5:49 PM
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evangelist said:

But I think alot of people don't know that not all are not spiritually led.

You've placed three negatives in that sentence so I don't know what you're trying to say. Could you explain yourself please?


Wes
Posted By: evangelist Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 7:25 PM
What I meant is that some people might think some shows or christian programs are not spiritually led, and have another gospel , like the rock music or hip hop shown on these christian channels.
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Wed May 16, 2007 10:14 PM
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Are you really trying to understand what Copeland has said?
Are you reading what you posted with a open heart?
Some how I think you are taking him completly out of context, beside the humor you are also missing and thinking he is being serious.

Evangelist, I will reply to each of your questions in short order, then address what I consider to be the issues of primary importance.

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Are you really trying to understand what Copeland has said?

Yes, I believe that I have sincerely tried to understand what Copeland has said. I am certainly not trying to mis-understand him or mis-interpret his words. Why would I waste my time doing that? I am open to the possibility that my interpretation of his words is mistaken, and I would be willing to acknowledge that my interpretation is mistaken if someone (perhaps you or Copeland) were to provide a more plausible or compelling alternative. Which quotes do you believe that I have misunderstood or misinterpreted? Why? What alternative interpretations would you suggest? Please be specific.

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Are you reading what you posted with a open heart?

Well, that depends on whether my interpretation of what I posted is correct or not. According to my understanding, each quote makes a false or heretical assertion, and a couple are examples of outright blasphemy. Neither my heart nor my mind is "open" to heresy, falsehoods, or blasphemy.

As a sinner, I am certainly susceptible to such things, but I would never knowingly or deliberately let my guard down and seriously consider adopting views that contradict the Scriptures or which the Church has condemned as heretical. In that sense, my heart is not open to what I posted. If you can suggest an interpretation of Copeland's words that does not contradict Scripture or the historic doctrines of the Church, then I will certainly approach his views with an open heart and mind. My mind and heart are open to the possibility that I have misunderstood or misinterpreted his words, and I am waiting patiently for someone to show me (not merely assert) that I have.

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Some how I think you are taking him completly out of context

I do not believe that I am quoting him out of context. I have listened to Copeland many times on television and have read several books and articles which have presented and analyzed his views on these subjects in detail. I chose each of the quotes as representative of many other statements that Copeland has made repeatedly over the years. Each quote is consistent and coheres with everything he has taught over the last three decades. They are also consistent and cohere with what other Word-Faith preachers, such as Kenneth Hagin, Paul Crouch, Benny Hinn, Fred Price, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, and Joel Osteen teach.

Nothing in the immediate context of these quotes would alter my understanding of them in the least; in fact, my interpretation of them has been determined precisely by the original context in which they appeared. If Copeland had been referring to the errors or false doctrines of others, or if his statments were nothing more than illustrations of false teachings which Copeland himself was renouncing or condemning, then my selective quotations would indeed be distorting, misleading, and out of context. However, the fact of the matter is that Copeland stands behind each of these statements and says these kinds of things all the time, and he has never, to my knowledge, recanted any of them, even when he has been directly challenged or confronted. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Copeland means something other than what he is saying. I am simply taking him at his word.

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beside the humor you are also missing and thinking he is being serious

I don't think I am missing any of the humor in Copeland's statements either. I have actually heard recordings of a number of these statements, and the humorous tone of Copeland's voice is unmistakable, as for example, when he says: "When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" I understand that Copeland is attempting to be humorous; but, I do not find anything about this blasphemous statement funny. And however humorous Copeland's tone, he means what he says and intends it to be taken quite seriously: he believes that he and all other Christians are "little gods": "Every Christian is a god...You don’t have a god in you, you are one" (Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987), audiotape #02-0028, side 1.

Evangelist, if you believe that I have misunderstood any of Copeland's assertions then please provide some evidence or arguments to demonstrate my errors, or at the very least specifically identify what you believe my errors to be. Although Robin and several others have already done this, let me state clearly what Copeland and other Word Faith teachers profess that is clearly unbiblical and heretical:

He teaches that men are gods, not just beings created in the image and likeness of God, but gods:

"You're all God. You don't have a God living in you; you are one!...When I read in the Bible where God tells Moses, 'I AM,' I say, 'Yah, I am too!'" Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987), audiotape #02-0028, side 1.

"God's reason for creating Adam was his desire to reproduce himself. I mean a reproduction of himself. And in the Garden of Eden he did just that. He was not a little like God, he was not almost like God, he was not subordinate to God even...Adam was as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus when he came to earth, he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. He wasn’t a lot like God he’s God manifested in the flesh, I want you to know something: Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh." Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #01-3001, side 1.

He teaches that God the Father has a body:

"God is a spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet." (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.)

"God is...a being that stands somewhere around six two, six three, that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple hundred pounds a little better, has a span of eight and, I mean a nine inches across." Kennth Copeland, Spirit, Soul, and Body (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987), audiotape #01-0601, side 1.

He teaches that Jesus' suffering and death upon the cross was insufficient to atone for human sin, and that in order to accomplish this he had to be tortured in hell for three days:

"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that." Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, n.d.), audiotape #BCC-19, side 1.

"Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell...He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer." Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," Believer's Voice of Victory, September 1991.

He teaches that when Jesus died on the cross he also died spiritually and took on the nature of Satan, and was later "born again" in hell:

"The death of Jesus Christ was not a physical death alone. If it had been a physical death, Abel would have paid the price for mankind. He was the first man that died because of honoring God and His Word. If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died." Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #00-0303, side 2.

"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He [Jesus] accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit and at the moment that He did that He cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, obeying the instruction of God, hung the serpent up on the pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there -- the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole." And the Lord said, "Because, it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit spiritual death and the light was turned off." Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #00-0303, side 2.

"See, you have to realize that He [Jesus] died; you have to realize that He went into the pit of hell as a mortal man made sin. But He didn't stay there, thank God. He was reborn in the pit of hell and resurrected." Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #00-0303, side 2.

"That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life....Jesus was born again -- the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him -- and He whipped the devil in his own backyard!" "The Price of It All," Believer's Voice of Victory, September 1991.

There are a number of other heretical beliefs which Copeland teaches, such as that the incarnate Christ was not fully God, that His incarnation was the result of God speaking Him into existence through His "faith-filled words" and positive confession, that faith is God's source of power and the only way He can do anything on this earth, etc., etc., etc. If you don't believe me just check out any of the following books, which cite Copeland's and other Word-Faith teachers' many heresies in explicit and thorough detail:

Hank Hanegraaff Christianity in Crisis

Robert M. Bowman The Word-Faith Controversy

D. R. McConnell A Different Gospel

Evangelist, please flee from this accursed cult to the blessed shelter of the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ! There are many here who are willing to guide and help you. Please pray that God would open your eyes to His Eternal Truth and lead you away from these false teachers. Read carefully, then reread Wes's list of characteristics of false teachers: each one of them applies to these Word-Faith preachers. Be a good Berean and see if these doctrines which Copeland teaches are biblical. If your heart and mind are open, I or someone else here will gladly provide the verses that will reveal their errors.
Posted By: Tom Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Thu May 17, 2007 7:05 AM


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I would say not true , because the gospel should be Christ and the relationship with Him , which these tv station preach.

Sorry to tell you this, but Kenneth Copeland and the rest of them believe the heresy that we become the Holy Ghost.

Tom
Posted By: Tom Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Thu May 17, 2007 7:24 AM
Brad

Many of the quotes you made of these Word of Faith teachers, I have heard with my own ears. I can also say that you have not distorted them in any way.

Evangelist- Brad is being very reasonable with you, all he is asking is if you have evidence that he is misunderstanding Copeland, then he wants to know what Copeland really meant.
If Copeland didn't mean what he said, then I have absolutely no idea what he meant. This means that Copeland is a bad communicator, or that literally hundreds like Brad and myself just don’t have very good comprehension.

I would recommend that you get Hank Hannegraff's tape series called "Christianity in Crisis". I am not a huge fan of Hanks, but the evidence that he uses on this series about Word of Faith people is irrefutable.

Are you also aware that Copeland has declared anyone who calls his teaching heresy, are going straight to hell?
Believe me when I say this, I was being polite in the way he put it. He seemed very delighted that they would be go there as well. The croud actually cheered him on. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Tom
Posted By: Robin How they got rich - Thu May 17, 2007 9:10 AM
Quote
evangelist said:
No it is not a claim it name it, it is this what I mean:
Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Were these Scriptures quoted to explain how these "evangelists" became millionaires?

Let me offer an alternate Scriptural explanation from Ezekiel 34:

Quote
The word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Tell them, 'Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the shepherds of Israel that feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? But you eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you kill them for meat, but you do not fed the flock. The diseased you have not strengthened, neither have you treated the sick, nor bound up the broken, nor restored those which were driven away nor sought for the lost, but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. And they were scattered for lack of a shepherd and became prey to all the beasts of the field. ... Therefore, shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As I live, because My flock became prey and My shepherds fed themselves instead of My flock, I am against the shepherds; and I will require
My flock at their hand...

Quote
Evangelist also writes:

You sure posted alot of scriptures.

2Co:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

But I think alot of people don't know that not all are not spiritually led.

Your words (and the familiar teachings of these false teachers) suggest that because "the letter kills" we should not rely on Scripture which is certain and unchanging and infallible. Because "the letter kills," we should leave our Bibles on the shelf and rely on "the Spirit" instead.

The letter that kills is the Law under the Old Covenant. The Spirit that gives life is the same Spirit that gave the Law - and the same Spirit which bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God. The letter that kills is the letter which condemns all humanity as guilty sinners under the Law of God. But we dare not throw away that Law!

And the trouble with relying entirely on whatever we think or feel the Spirit saying without the letter is that our feelings and perceprions change all the time. But the word of God stands forever, unchanging, sure, perfect. It is the Spirit speaking through the letter that gives life and leads us where He wishes.

-Robin
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Thu May 17, 2007 6:29 PM
Quote
Are you also aware that Copeland has declared anyone who calls his teaching heresy, are going straight to hell? Believe me when I say this, I was being polite in the way he put it. He seemed very delighted that they would be go there as well. The croud actually cheered him on.

Hey Tom,

Do you have a direct quote or reference for this? I know Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn have gone this far, but I wasn't aware that Copeland had actually declared his critics damned (though it certainly comes as no surprise). If you can find the actual quote you should post it -- I'd like to add it to my Word-Faith "horror" files.

Here are a few quotes I have that really demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit of these "anointed ones":

"There are people attempting to sit in judgment right today over, over the ministry that I'm responsible for--and the ministry that Kenneth E. Hagin is responsible for. Now I'm going to tell you what brother, it's not going to pay you to bad mouth Kenneth E. Hagin. You're going to wind up in trouble. I'm talkin' about serious trouble. Several people that I know have criticized and called that faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of them are dead right today in an early grave because of it and there's more than one of' em got cancer. And they don't know that's why they did it. These are, these are people that think they're being honest before God. I mean they love God, sweet Christian people, and everybody's prayin' and believin' God tryin' to get 'em healed and can't understand why they don't get healed. Why? Because they're playin' around over in this area of criticism, playin' around over in there with another man's calling and another man's ministry. That man is not your servant so don't judge him. If you can't talk in love, don't talk, just keep your mouth shut." Kenneth Copeland, “Why All Are Not Healed” (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #01-4001.

“I place a curse on every man and every woman that would stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry” (Benny Hinn at his July 1999 Denver Miracle Crusade).

“Be careful! Your little ones may suffer because of your stupidity. Now I’m pointing my finger today, with the mighty power of God on me, and I speak....And your children will suffer. If you care for your kids, stop attacking Benny Hinn” (Benny Hinn at the World Charismatic Conference, Aug. 7, 1992).

“Those who put us down are a bunch of morons....You know, I’ve looked for one verse in the Bible, I just can’t seem to find it. One verse that says, ‘If you don’t like ’em, kill ’em.’ I really wish I could find it...Sometimes I wish God would give me a Holy Ghost machine gun — I blow your head off!” (Benny Hinn on TBN’s “Praise-A-Thon,” November 8, 1990).

"I think God's given up on a lot of that old rotten Sanhedrin religious crowd, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. I think they're damned and on their way to hell and I don't think there's any redemption for them...I say to hell with you! Oh hallelujah. Get out of God's way, quit blocking God's bridges or God's gonna shoot you if I don't! I refuse to argue any longer with any of you out there. Don't even call me. If you want to argue doctrine, if you want to straighten out somebody over here, if you want to criticize Ken Copeland for his preaching on faith, or Dad Hagin. Get out of my life! I don't even want to talk to you or hear you. I don't want to see your ugly face! Get out of my face in Jesus' name." (Paul Crouch on TBN's "Praise-A-Thon," April 2, 1991)

"Take authority over the principalities and powers that dare to threaten this ministry. I have raised it up from infancy for My own purposes, saith the Lord. Just as I commanded Ezekiel to prophesy life to dry bones, and they took on life, so I am commanding you to prophesy death to the threats, challenges, and bondage's the enemy has placed on TBN. Command them to cease and desist, and you will see this dilemma die and disappear before your eyes. God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen! (Paul Crouch on TBN's "Praise The Lord," November 7, 1997)
Posted By: Adopted Re: How they got rich - Fri May 18, 2007 11:10 AM
Quote
Robin replied to evangelist:
Were these Scriptures quoted to explain how these "evangelists" became millionaires?

Millionaires? The exact figure for Paul Crouch's "slush fund" of his TBN "ministries" is now aproaching 400 million dollars. This is money that is pretty much used at his discression, personal or otherwise, and with accounting methods that would make an embezzler believe he has died and gone to heaven.

Just click on any of the articles on the below Web site relating to TBN Ministries.

http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/H_Home.asp

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: Wes Re: How they got rich - Fri May 18, 2007 12:15 PM
Denny,

Thank you for that eye opening report. I hadn't seen that before. It's very revealing and quite a contrast to living sacrificially!

It reminds me of our Savior's warning in His sermon on the mount.

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matt. 6:19-21


Wes
Posted By: Adopted Re: How they got rich - Fri May 18, 2007 2:31 PM
Quote
Wes said:
Thank you for that eye opening report. I hadn't seen that before. It's very revealing and quite a contrast to living sacrificially!

You're welcome.

As a Christian, it is my hope that someday people like this will pay back every nickle of what they have stolen with their fraudulent and papist "gospel". It might be more than fair for them to pay it back at $8.00 an hour (plus interest), washing windows, picking fruit or cleaning houses just like those from whom it was taken.

Before anyone accuses me of being judgmental, let it be said that I believe this is exactly the kind of reparations that our just God will someday demand of those who do not believe nor find shelter in His true gospel.

Quote
Though I have stolen nothing, I still must repay it. [Psalm 69:4, NASB]

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: How they got rich - Fri May 18, 2007 3:10 PM
But, but, but hey you guys, don't you know that Jesus and the disciples were rich and God wants all his children to be rich too?

"Jesus had a nice house, a big house--big enough to have company stay the night with Him at the house. Let me show you His house. Go over to John the first chapter and I'II show you His house....Now, child of God, that's a house big enough to have company stay the night in. There's His house." (John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory," TBN, January 20, 1991)

"Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief. Now you can't tell me that a ministry with a treasurer that's a thief can operate on a few pennies. It took big money to operate that ministry because Judas was stealing out of that bag." (John Avanzini, "Praise the Lord," TBN, September 15, 1988)

"John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes. Well, what else you gonna call it? Designer clothes--that's blasphemy. No, that's what we call them today. I mean, you didn't get the stuff He wore off the rack. It wasn't a one-size-fits-all deal. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of a garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment." (John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory," TBN, January 20, 1991)

"The Bible says that He [Jesus] had a treasurer--a treasury (they called it "the bag"); that they had one man who was the treasurer, named Judas Iscariot; and the rascal was stealing out of the bag for three-and-a-half years and nobody knew that he was stealing. You know why? Because there was so much in it, He couldn't tell. Nobody could tell that anything was missing. If He had three oranges in the bottom of the bag and he stole two of them, don't tell me He wouldn't know that some was missing. Beside that, if Jesus didn't have anything, what do you need a treasury for? A treasury is for surplus. It's not for that which you're spending. It's only for surplus--to hold it until you need to spend it. Therefore, He must have had a whole lot that needed to be held in advance that He wasn't spending. So He must have had more than He was living on." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 23, 1990)

"Jesus and the disciples were rich, only rich people could take off for three and a half years." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 23, 1990)



"The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see - to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you - thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, December 9, 1990)

"God has displeasure in poverty." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 16, 1990)

"The man who holds to poverty rejects the establishment of the covenant. The man who holds to the covenant rejects poverty. Faith in the covenant pleases God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him." (Gloria Copeland, God's Will is Prosperity

"MONEY come unto me NOW, MONEY come unto me NOW, MONEY come unto me NOW!" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believers Voice of Victory," TBN, December 4, 1999)

"Being poor is a sin." (Robert Tilton, "Success in Life," TBN, December 2, 1990)

"The only time people were poor in the Bible is when they were under a curse." (Robert Tilton, "Success in Life," TBN, December 2 1990)

“What’s the big deal, for goodness sake? What am I supposed to do, drive a Honda?...That’s not in the Bible...I’m sick and tired about hearing about streets of gold {in heaven}. I don’t need gold in heaven. I got to have it now.” (Benny Hinn, interview with Mike Thomas from The Berean Call, January 1992.
Posted By: Tom Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Fri May 18, 2007 3:34 PM
Brad

It was taken from Hank Hannegraff's tape series called 'Christianity in Crisis'.
I am almost positive that it was Copeland, but will apologize if it wasn't.

The quotes you just made are very similar to it.

Tom
Posted By: BradJHammond Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Fri May 18, 2007 3:53 PM
Tom,

I have the book Christianity in Crisis on which the tapes are based. It's the first book I recommend for anyone who has questions about this movement. The audio's great because you get to hear many of these horrifying quotes by the speakers themselves. I'll look again to see if I can find the quote by Copeland. It's easier (for most people anyway) to remember a voice than a citation or a footnote, so you're probably right. I just like to have the documentation because that's the first thing people who support these "ministries" ask: "Where did you hear (or read) that?" "I think you're quoting out of context," "I just can't believe Benny Hinn (or Copeland, or Crouch, etc.) would actually say that," "I've never heard them preach about that," etc., etc. Of course, even when you provide chapter and verse many still prefer to ignore it and continue writing out their checks and talking to their wallets.
Posted By: Tom Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sat May 19, 2007 1:20 PM
It is pretty hard to make an exact quote when you are relying on memory, especially when the tapes are not readily available. The tapes belong to someone else.

But I agree with you that it is good to have documentation, which is why I showed the source I was using.
Let me know if it wasn’t Copeland.

Tom
Posted By: William Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Sat May 19, 2007 6:40 PM
Quote
evangelist said:
I have heard this and read some parts of a very long article about tbn and the evangelist false gospels.
Sence I support their ministry , and have my own tv broadcast . . .

THE TRINITY BROADCAST PLAN OF SALVATION HERE
I think they could fit into this category. The first line of the “Conclusion” to the Canons of Dordt reads



<font size="3">“And this is the perspicuous, simple, and ingenuous declaration of the orthodox doctrine respecting the five articles….” </font>

[color:"0000FF"]Of Divine Predestination
Of the Death of Christ, and the Redemption of Men Thereby
Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof.
Of the Perseverance of the Saints[/color]

PERSPIC'UOUS
, a. Clear to the understanding; that may be clearly understood; not obscure or ambiguous. Language is perspicuous when it readily presents to the reader or hearer the precise ideas which are intended to be expressed. Meaning, sense or signification if perspicuous, when it is clearly and easily comprehended.





A COMPARISON OF CALVINISM vs. ARMINIANISM HERE






<font size="3">“Moreover,[color:"0000FF"]the Synod warns calumniators themselves to consider the terrible judgment of God which awaits them [/color]for bearing false witness against the confessions of so many churches, for distressing the consciences of the weak, and for laboring to render suspected the society of the truly faithful.”</font>

CALUMNIATOR,
n. One who slanders; one who falsely and knowingly accuses another of a crime or offense, or maliciously propagates false accusations or reports.



William
Posted By: Dave U. Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gosp - Sat May 19, 2007 10:12 PM
Greetings!

So far in this thread, many folks have offered substantial Biblical reasons for why most of the teachers on TBN, especially the health-and-wealth preachers, ought to be condemned as false teachers. Anyone who properly studies the Scriptures cannot help but come to this conclusion.

So how do so many people become convinced that these teachers somehow speak for God? As a former fan of at least one health-and-wealth preacher of earlier years, here's a few reasons that come to mind:

1. Such preachers often quote large chunks of Scripture that seemingly backs up their claims. However, much of this quoting takes the form of prooftexting: "See, the same thing happened here in the Gospels or Acts that I say takes place today in our services." Obviously, proper Biblical interpretation needs to go way beyond "it happened once before, and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so it must be so." Peter walked on the water at Jesus' encouragement, but I doubt that any charismatic teachers encourage their followers to emulate his example lest they get their pants sued off them.

2. Oftentimes, people who take an interest in TBN-style teaching have dramatic personal experiences that seem to back up what Brother So-and-So is teaching. "Wow, Brother X said this, and it's happened to me just as he said, so he must be speaking for God!" Sadly, charismatic history is littered with souls who, having had one or two wonderful experiences, came up empty and discouraged in the end with nothing to show for the dream, vision, or prophecy that promised such great things. To be sure, such experiences can be extremely compelling to the novice who doesn't realize that they are nothing better than the bait on a hook that Satan intends to use to draw them away from Christ. Remember two things: (1) psychics, mediums, etc., are as often involved in "true" experiences or predictions as are charismatic Christians, and (2) when Scripture tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light, it's saying that he can often come across in a way that seems just like a visitation from God...except that the experience he provides leads us away from Christ and the Scriptures in the long run.

3. Charismatic teaching can, in the short run, produce a sense of peace, joy, and excitement. It seems to work...for a while. Charismatics fail to realize, though, that everything--various religions, meditation, exercise, drugs, alcohol, etc.--produces short-term results. No one would fall for that stuff if they didn't! This is one reason why it's dangerous to conclude that this or that teaching must be good on account of its producing results. True, the "good" results may last quite some time--perhaps years--but in the end any way save that of Scripture will disappoint and destroy.

So, my charismatic friend, I urge you to think twice about charting your life course on account of supposed supernatural experiences. Although some such experiences seem very real and good and seem to produce good results, experience must never take the driver's seat! Instead, only Scripture ought to direct us as to how to run the Christian race. Rather than using Scripture merely as a source of prooftexts to validate your special experiences, allow Scripture to test your experiences to see whether they are as good as they may appear. Especially if you're a young believer and new to charismaticism, you may think that all of your experiences are leading you in a good direction and never realize that they are in fact taking you further away from the basic truths we find in Scripture. Take care lest experience rather than Scripture teaches you how to live and what to believe!

A former charismatic,
Dave
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:13 PM
Quote
Adopted said:
Quote
evangelist said:
I want to thank everyone for their personal opinions.
I would like to know if they are teaching another gospel like JHW or mormons,and a false gospel like Islam?
Do they come against the death burial, and resurrection to be teaching another gospel?
Do they teach against the trinity , and the personal relationship with Jesus Christ ?
Do they teach against the final authority of the bible?
Do they teach another gospel about the nlood of Jesus?
Do they teach we should have christian pride, and teach we must be first putting me, myself, and I before others even in understanding , and beliefs as such?

Have you read the other posts in this thread so far, especiallly Robin's? First, please answer the post by Paul and then please read Robin's post and ask questions or make comments about what he has posted.

You have asked six questions and the answer to each and every one is YES.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

So this is you personal opinion correct?
Posted By: Robin Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:14 AM
Perhaps too much time has gone by. Read the entire thread again to refresh your memory, Evangelist. This is not a matter of mere opinion. These are indisputably proven facts with more than sufficient documentation from these false teachers' own words - not to mention the testimony of Scripture to the contrary of what they teach.

These teachers represent a departure from the Christian faith not only historically, but Biblically. Unless God grants them repentance, you won't see a single one of them in heaven.
Posted By: Adopted Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:20 AM
Quote
evangelist said:
So this is you personal opinion correct?

Yes, and everyone else in this thread except you. Have you read or considered any of the input from the others? There's enough comments and references to keep you busy for some time if you're really willing to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: straw Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:00 PM
Evangelist,

I know that a lot of people are afraid of expressing their feelings in worship to Jesus, some have been very hurt by what might have happened to them. It is true that believers from denomination to denomination differ greatly with each other on matters of what is important. It seems that this crowd have one matter of great importance, "Jesus" They love Him and are not ashamed to be public about it.

Now before anyone gets angry with me for saying this. I do not listen to TBN broadcasts, infact I never listen to Church on TV, or the internet, but I thought to have a look a the list of their programme and found a name I know, namely Stormie Omaritian, the wife of producer Michael Omaritian, and after a time of worship she was interview. Stormie has written extensively on family prayer and has many deep and valuable insights and experiences in prayer. I found she was filled with a love and compassion of Christ, as she reached out. I have never seen her speak but I have read some of her books and my wife and I have greatly benefited from this. Prayer is fundamental to our lives as believers and she really brought that home.

Now there are some clangers in the other bits, but to be honest there is such a loving and worshipful manner in those who are there. I am not sure I am going to join Robin and his generalizations. There is a sweet mood of gentle caring and not the wild frenzied tribal orgy of heretical maniacal laughter and screaming, but just a lot of happy people for Jesus.

This the progamme I have been listening to for the last ... 37 minutes and it is ministering to my heart. Sorry, to let the team down...but I am struggling to see a need for repentance and if not they will not end up in heaven. Sorry, Robin I think you need to listen to this and change your mind.

Wednesday Apr 18, 2007
Joyce Meyer hosts Stormie Omartian, Dutch Sheets, Marilyn Hickey and Martha Munizzi in Dallas, TX.

Love,
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:19 PM
Straw,

Your response was unfortunately so typical of those who are captivated by their "warm and fuzzy feelings" rather than being captivated and ruled by the infallible, inerrant written Word of God. The issue isn't how one "feels" when listening/watching these people but whether or not what they are teaching is BIBLICAL..... aka: TRUTH! (Jh 17:17; 2Cor 10:3-6, 11:3, 4; 1Tim 4:1, 2; 2Tim 3:1-9; 4:1-4; Gal 1:7-9) Those on TBN and countless others are teaching heresy, i.e., doctrines and practices which are contrary and even antithetical to the truth found in Scripture. Embracing these teachings inevitably leads to idolatry, blaspheme and eternal death. They are "seducing spirits" and need to be both exposed as such and avoided like the plague.

Quote
1 John 4:1 (ASV) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

In His grace,
Posted By: Adopted Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:26 PM
Quote
straw said:
It seems that this crowd have one matter of great importance, "Jesus" They love Him and are not ashamed to be public about it.

Jesus who? The Jesus who is our sovereign Lord, Judge, High Priest and King? Or, the Arminian and effeminate Jesus of "emotional puppy love" that begs and pleads on bended knee for a lost and totally depraved humanity to sentimentally believe in Him?

Jesus who?

Quote
And he was preaching and saying, "After me comes One who is mightier than I, and I am not even fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals." [Mark 1:7 NASB]

One may not have it both ways. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:37 PM
Quote
Adopted said:
Jesus who? The Jesus who is our sovereign Lord, Judge, High Priest and King? Or, the Arminian and effeminate Jesus of "emotional puppy love" that begs and pleads on bended knee for a lost and totally depraved humanity to sentimentally believe in Him?

Jesus who?
Denny,

You are too kind! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> In some cases, e.g., Kenneth Copeland, his "god" and "Jesus" are nothing more than men such as we for the most part. Although these TBN Shysters use terms found in the Bible, what they teach is a far cry from what the Bible teaches. One could even call them "rapists" as they forcibly take money and goods from people by using psychological ploys and deception and harden the hearts of their blind followers.

Quote
2 Timothy 3:13-15 (ASV) "But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
In His grace,
Posted By: straw Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:31 PM
Dear Sirs,
I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry. Your words are painful and yet almost macabre. You are all very brilliant theologians and have studied Systematic teachings of John Calvin, Gordon Haddon Clark and the like, but not every person is, how do I put this politely, without inciting a revolution. Not everyone is a nerdy Christian. Some just enjoy the joy of the Lord, and the peace of the Lord. They are not really into sitting down and pouring through books on theology but would much rather prefer reading a novel. Not to say they are not thinkers, but they are not geared that way. People are very different. This is the idea of the unique creation of God, He has not made us all identical, sort of like penguins. We are so different in our personalities. A farm hand might read Chaucer or Shakespeare, or Browning or Gullivers travels, but wether or not he reads Calvin, Luther, Fox, Bunyan, Spurgeon is another idea altogether. Some glean gigantic philosophical and intellectual lessons from an observation, where others might only get the most elementary idea and be completely fulfilled thereby.

Do you get it ? We are not all the same. For this difference in personality, are you willing to destroy the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of humble folks who enjoy simple faith, must all need to be complex in their faith to be happy in God. I think not!

Adopted as usual, you will pick a phrase that suits your argument and not reply intelligently to the overall thought that I am expressing and you Pilgrim will give me long quotes that you have gleaned in your deep studies of the writings of men and women of God, but none of this help, because what is really at stake is the simple truth that in Christ we are not all the same, some are of humble intelligence and are stimulated to great peace and joy by less, and such as state is a most pleasant one for them, but to expect that others should neccesarily be as you are is to not comprehend the simple joy and peace in the Holy Spirit that others enjoy who too have come to know this Saviour who will not be styled but who loves the simple and and complex and the inbetween folks like me. I do not mean compromised, but somewhere between simple joy and a need to have ones cup filled mentally with a lot as well. Surely in your life you have discovered that not all mankind are the same. A simple man might glean great joy from simply singing a psalm while he or she is a bout their work, whereas another of great intellectual prowess would prefer to listen to a recitation of the entire works of a great scholar.

I am not an idiot, but I have mastered the works of John Robbins and Gordon Clark, I can also grasp some of Michael Sudduth and Alvin Plantinga's works but when I get to people like Godel, I wince, I am lost, I am a child. Once I asked a student if they could understand the book of Romans, to which the student smartly replied, "Oh yes I understand it all." I was amazed, I have struggled with Romans and Hebrews and the longer theological books for years, not that I do not enjoy them, I just cannot absorb the whole of the proximity of their sheer profundity. I love John's Gospel, and a simpleton I once knew who still lived with his mother and was unable to be married, yet worked a good days work and got his wage, snatched at passages and could never grasp fully any passages, he was just a humble servant of God and made up for it in his joy and gentle witness of kindness. Another woman who I know would not have even know the diffence between justification and sanctification, and would certainly not have begun to build an understanding of predestination, was a kind soul who met the physical needs of suffering patients by doing massage professionally. It is this sort of person that may happily want to just sing and worship Jesus freely and has not the complexities of theological argument to find fault, who is able to enjoy simply their Lord. To accuse such a one of Arminianism, Pelagianism or whatever is cruel and unkind and will not wash well on at the judgment seat of Christ who shows not favourtism or respect of persons. To whom are we giving the chosen seats and who do we think we are to decide who will sit where. This is the Fathers decision and we should be most careful how we wet the blade of our defence against those for whom He has died, who we are not in any position to arise in judgment over. It would be very pleasant if it were agreed to never again waste bandwidth on the internet killing the testimony of those who like you but not as smart, love and cherish the Saviour. Trust me on this one, you guys are in a dark place here. Just ease up and think about it before you come back with more snaps and snarls calling light darkness without having even so much as considered that some are His.

Peace,
Posted By: Robin Just a Matter of Personality? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:17 PM
"Oh, I get it Robin. Some charismatic church hurt you and so now you're hostile to all Charismatics."

-OR-

"Now I get it, Robin. You simply prefer classical music and liturgical worship. Fine, but don't condemn those who prefer acid/demon/punk/puke/gangstarap and reject liturgy. It's just a matter of personality."

Neither is true. Yeah I was hurt, but not embittered for the rest of my life. God sovereignly sent me through that particular valley for His own perfect purpose and my greater good. And you can still find me with my hands in the air and upward-facing eyes closed, lost in sweet abandon as I worship - whether in private or on the Lord's day gatherings at my Presbyterian church. And I find that such abandonment to worship is contagious, for which I am grateful.

We're talking about false teachers on TBN, Straw, not "entertainers" who express sweet sentiments that may just happen to be theologically sound. This thread began as a question about teachers, most of whom are regulars on TBN, whose doctrines are patently false. Many damnable heresies are put forth by these men and women (Note: a damnable heresy is one that threatens the very salvation of anyone who believes it).

It ain't a matter of hostility for old wounds, personal opinion, or personality or taste. It's about doctrine. Does doctrine matter? We already had a thread about that in the ExCharisma forum...

-Robin
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:20 PM
Quote
straw said:
Dear Sirs,

Do you get it ? We are not all the same. For this difference in personality, are you willing to destroy the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of humble folks who enjoy simple faith, must all need to be complex in their faith to be happy in God. I think not! . . . etc.
Yes, I get it just fine.... but you obviously do NOT "get it"!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> It has NOTHING to do with "personalities" but with the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD. It is undeniably true that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He wills. And it is also true that God has created each individual with differing intellectual abilities. However, this does not and cannot circumvent biblical truth, aka: doctrine which is where faith originates and to which faith is lived out by all.

In this thread, it has been argued that those men and women who are associated with TBN are blatant heretics because of what they TEACH.... get it? We couldn't care less how much a particular individual excites you, titillates your emotions or allegedly improves your prayer life. There are countless unbelievers who belong to all manner of religious groups who will profess that their "leader" moves them to great heights. Yet in every case, their teaching is built upon sand. How often must I and others point out to you that "feelings", even those feelings which you allege are the "Spirit" speaking to you are not of God and thus totally unreliable. The Devil can quote Scripture better than you or I, but He is also a master at distorting the truth and leading people astray.

Quote
Jeremiah 6:16-17 (ASV) "Thus saith Jehovah, Stand ye in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way; and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls: but they said, We will not walk [therein]. And I set watchmen over you, [saying], Hearken to the sound of the trumpet; but they said, We will not hearken."

Ephesians 4:11-16 (ASV) "And he gave some [to be] apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, [even] Christ; from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in [due] measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love."

Now, if you will please notice, I have not quoted any mortal man in this reply nor in the one previous to it. What I have provided are passages of the inspired, infallible, and inerrant WRITTEN WORD OF GOD!.

However, I would be remiss not to direct you to this article: Theology for Every Man.

Quote
"Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers." - John Owen (1616-1683)
One Puritan said "Showing mercy to the wolf is showing cruelty to the sheep."

In His grace,
Posted By: straw Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:42 AM
Is everyone who disagrees with your theological position a leprechaun ? Surely, there has to be place in your heart for others who do not hold to the exact same theological position you do and still be allowed to exist as sheep, or are all those who are not in your exacting camp wolves, monster, demons, shylarks, heretics and whatever. This is rather shortsighted and not even the Son of God employed such simplistic thinking when he dealt with men, already knowing what was in their hearts; he only called some children of the devil, others white walled sepulchres, some wolves, but not everyone who disagreed with him was automatically a wolf, some were confused sheep. He did say to Peter, 'Get thee behind me Satan' and to satan, "Get thee behind me satan', but to little one's who have not all the exacting points of religion according to a exact science was he not streching out his hands and saying, "Except ye become as little children" in your faith, ye shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The danger when one places learning or acquired scholastic merit, to exclude others on this basis, when salvation is granted on the basis of child like faith in the Son of God, to be in error or have been deceived by satan, is something everyone of us has been at some time or the other, it is not a trainsmash, it is a place that the Shepherd often comes to the rocky crag and leans over and lifts back His sheep, to call little straying sheep, wolves is something you will now have to contest with the Great Shepherd of the sheep, I would prefer to reserve my judgment lest I find myself doing something that is reserved for the Son of God.

It is sad when we all resemble Leprechaun, but for the sake of our own elitist puritanical estimation of our current position we fail to realize that none of us is a sheep by our own choosing, but we have been called, adopted, chosen according to the historical, progressive plan of God through the Great Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ. I would be less inclined to call someone a wolf, and reserve such announcements bringing them under the ONLY JUDGE of the human heart. It might seem clever to establish or to hide behind reems of creedal ideas, but to expect others of simpler disposition to assimilate these ideas and if they have not to assume they are wolves. You look at them, call them by name, but do you even know if their names are written in the Lamb's book of life, can you be sure that your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and if you are sure, do you not realize it has been given you, for nothing that you have is given you unless it is given you by heaven. We are not so high an mighty that we may descend our evaluations of the sod dwellers everyone and be able to say, 'Sheep, Goat, Sheep, Goat'...this judgment is NOT ours, it is that of Him who judges righteously. To sieze His throne is to act in the role of the adversity, and to this I wonder if I cannot hear the Lord saying, "Get the behind me satan."
Posted By: Robin Re: Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel? - Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:51 AM
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I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not mean with the immoral people of the of this world ... but ... with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolator, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves (1st Corinthians 5:9-13, NASB, emphasis mine).

The writer of 1st Corinthians expects Christians to make judgements about others within the church. We are also expected and required to make judgements about the teachings of those who claim to bring God's word:

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But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9, NASB)

You get offended when we make these judgements as if we have no right to do so. But we have an obligation to do so for the love of all the sheep. Most especially the simple ones who are easily led astray.

Did you know that the Church has authority on earth even to forgive sin or to retain it against a rebel?

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I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth have been loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19 NASB. See also 18:15-18)

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If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained (John 20:23).
The church has authority on earth to shut unrepentant rebels out of the kingdom, to open it to penitent sinners, to judge those within, and expel false Christians (more on church authority here).

How are we supposed to do that if we don't judge within the church? Especially we are judge those who teach a false gospel! And it has been proved over and over again in thread after thread here that these people are false teachers and wolves among the sheep.

Now how is that the church is to do it's job if we "never judge" anyone - especially those who claim to be "anointed" by God to bring us His word?

C'mon, Straw. This ain't about us being theologically narrow-minded or arrogant. It's about the lives and well-being of the sheep.

-Robin
Posted By: Tom For Straw - Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:51 PM
Straw

So far you have not shown any of us that we are wrong concerning our accusations that Word of Faith preachers teach heresy. In fact unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems like you don't really care if they are as long as they are making you feel closer to the Lord. Is that an accurate understanding of what you believe?

You have read quotes from some of these false teachers, but I would like you to show us why based on their own teaching, why we shouldn't believe they are heretics.
Posted By: straw To whom it may concern: - Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:09 PM
Tom,
I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see. It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning. Then who am I to pass judgment on such fine scholars as yourselves who spend many hours counselling and encouraging those who wander into cyberheaven. Then again, cyberheaven can get a little crowded when the elitest spirit is dominant, I am just saying open your hearts fellas, Jesus forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No?
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:15 PM
Right you are Robin about this not being a matter of personal opinion. Fortunately the words of many of these Word of Faith teachers sink their own ships.
Only the undiscerning can not see this fact.

Tom
Posted By: straw Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:28 PM
Tom,

Everyone started somewhere along this Pilgrim's way. Some progress and others regress, some get off on Faith, others on Hope, others on Love (you know the Catholic idea that love is God.) It is reminds me a little of the idea of the elephant. Some got the tail and said, 'This is it' etc. It is a pity that so many have what they believe is the head, and shout out, "Eureka" we have it! when in reality it is the head that has them.

Christ is building His church out of not very fantastically brilliant and all cleaned up parts and so we need to really learn to reserve our judgments and let Christ do the judging of them, by His Spirit among us. Being sensitive to the leading of the Spirit is what the early church was really good at, and for sure there were dead Ananias' and Sapphira's and those whose bodies were given over to satan to be destroyed. But to just call a large group of people that may or may not be fully in a particular false teaching, is throwing discernment in the Spirit out of the window. The spirit of meekness that James encourages in the restoration of one who is far from the Lord cannot be avoided for us, if we see ourselves as Apostles or Teachers, or having authority, we need to remember that those who are least, those who are the servants will earn the right to sit, and even then only those who the Father designates to the important seats, will take that place. It worries me when we cannot see clearly examples like when the mothers brought the little one's to be blessed by Jesus and the disciples, (all mature and learned and all, objected)...Jesus' reaction is always what pulls me back to a place of learning. This heaven we are all to enter one day, is not one that favours the hard line, it favour gentleness, meekness, self control, kindness, need I name all the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

The softness of Christ is what has drawn us, His love for us, His greater love, for His friends, and if perchance some of these we label 'Heretic' are no more than friends, who have grown up a bit bent, well in accordance with our perception of what is straight, we might find ourselves stayed by the outstretched hand of God.

Earnestly,
Posted By: Tom Re: To whom it may concern: - Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:32 PM
Straw

I understand your concern, however when it comes to teachers of the Word of God. We can not afford not to call a spade a spade. These false teachers have and are leading many astray.
Have you looked at what the definition of the word "heresy" is?
Do these Word of Faith teachers teach heresy, or do they teach the Word of God the way it was intended?

Understand also that many of these teachers have been approached about the matter privately on many occasions and they refuse to repent.
One such occasion had to do with Hank Hanagraff and Benny Hinn. Benny Hinn supposedly repented, only later to teach more of the same heresy.

In the tape series by Hanagraff called ‘Christianity in Crisis’, you will listen to recorded messages by some of these Word of Faith teachers themselves. As an example, one of these teachers said that each member of the Trinity had its own Trinity.
Is that the Trinity that the Bible teaches?

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:24 PM
Your view resounds with the current emphasis being taught by the "Emergent Church Movement"; toleration. There is an excellent article on The Highway that deals with this issue of "judgment" which you can read here: Is It Right to Judge?. Here are the author's opening remarks:

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THIS QUESTION—“Is t right to judge?”—is one that puzzles many sincere Christians. A careful and open minded study of the Bible makes it clear that concerning certain vital matters, it is not only right but a positive duty to judge. Many do not know that the Scripture commands us to judge.

The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, “Judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). He told a man, “Thou hast rightly judged” (Luke 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, “Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?” (Luke 12:57).

The Apostle Paul wrote, “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say” (1 Corinthians 10:15). Again, Paul declared, “He that is spiritual judgeth all things” (1 Corinthians 2:15). It is our positive duty to judge.
He immediately begins his article with the subject of "False Teachers and False Teaching" which is our subject here.

Martin Luther is known for being one who didn't mince words and he stated his policy regarding heretics and heresy in this way:

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"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order.... when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon."
In His grace,
Posted By: Robin Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:50 PM
Perhaps we should just believe what we feeeel in spiiiirits, instead of being so intolerant and dogmatic. After all, I don't feeeeel as if God should judge "little lost lambs" so harshly just because their teachings utterly destroy those who hear and accept them. Predators need love too! Can't you feeeeeel that?

I've had enough of this absurdity.
Posted By: Wes Re: To whom it may concern: - Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:46 AM
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straw said:

I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see. It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning. Then who am I to pass judgment on such fine scholars as yourselves who spend many hours counselling and encouraging those who wander into cyberheaven. Then again, cyberheaven can get a little crowded when the elitest spirit is dominant, I am just saying open your hearts fellas, Jesus forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No?

Straw,

When I read your sensitivities about using more gentle language, displaying meekness, and not violating someone's self esteem it makes me think about an interview I heard recently with a well-known pastor who expresses those same sentiments. His name is Rev. Robert Schuller. When he was asked about topics like the wrath of God, sin, repentance, faith, and the hope of glory he chooses to use softer words too but unfortunately as you will see he gets lost in the process. He is no longer teaching what Scripture says but he has developed a ministry philosophy focused on positive thinking and self esteem. Below is an excerpt from that interview.


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Schuller's false teaching is an extremely serious matter in light of his wide influence. His is the most popular religion television broadcast in America. His books sell by the millions. He appears with presidents. His "self-esteem Christianity" has been adopted by multitudes. These believe they are Christians and attend churches; but in reality, they worship a false christ and follow a false gospel. Robert Schuller and his mentor, the late Norman Vincent Peale, are two of the key culprits in promoting this error.

Schuller reinterprets the doctrines of the Word of God to conform to his self-esteem philosophy. His Christ is a Jesus who provides men with self-esteem.

Schuller's gospel is the replacement of negative self-concepts with positive ones. To Schuller, sin is merely the lack of self-esteem. To Schuller, the greatest evil is to call men sinners in a Biblical fashion and thereby injure their self-esteem. Schuller is a Universalist who believes that all people are the children of God. His goal is to help each person understand and enjoy this "fact." Bottom line, Schuller's message is that there is no need for one to recognize his own personal sin, no need for repentance, and no need for the crucifixion of self. In fact, concerning the latter point, Schuller teaches just the opposite philosophy -- that self is to be exalted -- which is nothing less than an outright denial of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

(a) Personal Sin?: "What do I mean by sin?

Answer: Any human condition or act that robs God of glory by stripping one of his children of their right to divine dignity. I could offer another complementing answer: Sin is that deep lack of trust that separates me from God and leaves me with a sense of shame and unworthiness. I can offer still another answer: Sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another human being of his or her self-esteem" (Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, p. 14). In a 10/5/84 letter to Christianity Today, Schuller wrote, "I don't think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and hence counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise than the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition" (cf. Romans 1:18-3:20).

(b) Repentance?:

In response to a question from Paul Crouch on Crouch's TBN 12/8/87 television show, concerning critic's claims that Schuller doesn't preach repentance, Schuller responded, "I preach repentance so positively, most people don't recognize it" (cf. Ezekiel 18:30-32).

(c) Denial of Self?:

One of Schuller's books, Self-Love: The Dynamic Force of Success, took Eric Fromm's humanistic self-love teachings and brought them into the church. In Self-Esteem: The New Reformation (Word Books, 1982), Schuller teaches that: (1) the church's problem is that it has had a God-centered theology for centuries, when it needs a man-centered one; (2) we're not bad, merely badly informed about how good we are; (3) it would be an insult to the integrity of any human being to call him a sinner; and (4) "Jesus knew His worth; His success fed His self-esteem. He suffered the cross to sanctify His self-esteem and He bore the cross to sanctify your self-esteem. The cross will sanctify the ego trip" (p. 115) (cf. Matt. 16:24). (See attached reports for more analysis and quotes from Self-Esteem: The New Reformation) [Schuller further amplified this latter thought on the 8/12/80 Phil Donahue Show; Schuller said, "Jesus had an ego. He said, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.' Wow, what an ego trip He was on!"]

- The following are highlights from an 11/92 radio interview with Robert Schuller; it provides a good snapshot summary of Schuller's perverted gospel of self:

QUESTIONER: Dr. Schuller, did you write "The unsaved person cannot perceive himself as worthy of divine grace and hence rejects it."?

SCHULLER: I may have said that because I am inclined to believe very definitely that the person who is lost and unsaved is afraid of the light. The person who is only used to darkness is afraid of the light and I think unsaved people do not consider themselves worthy enough; I think that's absolutely true, "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us."

QUESTIONER: But not while we were "worthy" Christ died for us?

SCHULLER: Listen, if Christ had died for somebody who wasn't worth anything that would have been a lousy deal. God is a good steward and he teaches us to be good stewards. God knows the worst sinner is worth saving so that he would die on a cross for us.

QUESTIONER: But if we are worth it, then it is not grace, it's merit.

SCHULLER: No, no. It means that we are still creatures of God, we are still sons of God. We have value. We still have value.

QUESTIONER: Would you be willing to address your congregation as a group as sinners?

SCHULLER: No I don't think I need to do that. ... My only concern is: I don't want to drive them farther away than they are! ... I do let people know how great their sins and miseries are. How do I do that? I don't do that by standing in a pulpit and telling them they're sinners. ... The way I do it is ask questions. Are you happy? Do you have problems, what are they? So then I come across as somebody who cares about them ... So the way I preach sin is by calling to attention what it does to them here and now, and their need for divine grace! ... I believe in heaven. I believe in hell. But I don't know what happens there. I don't take it literally that it's a fire that never stops burning.

QUESTIONER: As Jesus said it was?

SCHULLER: Jesus was not literal.

QUESTIONER: Justified from what? The wrath of God?

SCHULLER: Oh! I'll never use that language.

QUESTIONER: But the Bible does.

SCHULLER: Yes, the Bible does, but the Bible is ... a contradiction: Old Testament -- Law, New Testament -- Grace. Jesus is a contradiction; totally human and totally God.

QUESTIONER: Of course we would say that the dual nature of Christ is a "mystery" but not a contradiction.

SCHULLER: It is a contradiction, but you know what? Contradictions are ultimate points of creativity...

QUESTIONER: How could the cross, as you write, "sanctify the ego trip," and make us proud, in the light of passages that say, "I hate pride and arrogance (Prov. 8:13), "Pride goes before destruction" (Prov. 16:18),"The Lord detests all the proud" (Prov. 16:5), "Do not be proud" (Rom. 12:16), "Love does not boast, it is not proud" (1 Cor. 13:4). In fact Paul warns Timothy that in the last days men "will be lovers of themselves" (2 Tim. 3:2). ... Why should we do anything to encourage people to become "lovers of themselves" if Paul in fact warned others that that would be the state of godlessness in the last days?

SCHULLER: I hope you don't [preach this] because you could do a lot of damage to a lot of beautiful people. ... if you preach that text, oh man, I sure hope you give it the kind of interpretation that I do or, I'll tell you, you'll drive them farther away and they'll be madder than hell at you and they'll turn the Bible off, and they'll switch you off, and they'll turn on the rock music and Madonna. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean you should preach it. ... it is so difficult to preach some of those texts and not come across as lacking humility ...

QUESTIONER: Dr. Schuller, what do we tell someone who says, "I'm already happy and fulfilled, so why do I need the gospel?"

SCHULLER: I don't know ... I can't relate to that.

QUESTIONER: Ought we to pray, "Our father in heaven, honorable is our name"?

SCHULLER: (Silence)

QUESTIONER: That's a legitimate question?

SCHULLER: It may be a legitimate question but I think it's kind of a dumb question because I don't teach that. Ask someone who teaches it.

QUESTIONER: Well you wrote it on page 69 of Self-Esteem: The New Reformation.

SCHULLER: You know what, I'm tired now. You're laying so many heavy trips on me, and I wasn't prepared for this.

- Since Schuller will not preach from the pulpit the gospel of repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, nor teach from the Bible, what then is the message he propagates? Los Angeles Times staff writer Bella Stumbo, after an extended interview with Schuller, wrote: "In short, Robert Schuller believes that God placed him on this Earth to preach possibility thinking" ("The Gospel of Success," 5/29/83, Los Angeles Times, p. 24). To underscore just how "vitally important" this message is, Schuller once wrote: "I believe in positive thinking. It is almost as important as the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (Michael Nason and Donna Nason, Robert Schuller: The Inside Story, 1983, p. 152).

- Schuller's "possibility thinking" replaces truth. It doesn't matter what or whom one believes, but only that one be positive. He argues that Biblical doctrine may have communicated to people in the past, but to our generation it seems so "negative" and offensive that it turns people off. So what is needed now is a "positive" gospel that everyone can accept. In an article in The Orange County Register, Schuller berated preachers "who spew forth their angry, hate-filled sermons of fire and brimstone." Explaining that the way to "tell the good religion from the bad religion" is whether it is "positive," Schuller exhorted "religious leaders ... whatever their theology ... to articulate their faith in positive terms." He then called for a "massive, united effort by leaders of all religions" to proclaim "the positive power ... of world-community-building religious values."

I know it can be hard to listen to someone who is over bearing, out spoken, and argumentative. I don't sense that attitude here. I believe the responses you have received are genuinely concerned for your spiritual well being and discerning truth from error. Even though we may rebuke you for promoting heresy it doesn't mean we don't care about you. Ecclesiasities 7:5 says "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the song of fools." Proverbs 9:8 also says: "Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you."

I’d like to remind you that the Lord Jesus Christ didn’t hesitate to call the religious leaders of His day hypocrites, white washed sepultures, and sons of Satan. (see Luke 11:44; John 8:44) Schuller's philosophy would rebuke Jesus for not being more sensitive to the people. After all he might sound negative and destroy their self esteem. The question is... "who's being more loving and kind?" Jesus or Robert Schuller?


If you want to read the entire article you can find it here.

Additional Schuller quotes


Wes
Posted By: Adopted Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:26 AM
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Robin said:
I've had enough of this absurdity.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Me too.

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Cursed be the love and cursed be the unity that takes the Word of God to the stake.

Martin Luther

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: straw Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:59 AM
Okay, okay ! Don't all rush me at once.

Thanks Tom,

http://www.m-w.com has 'heretic' expressed two ways.

1. a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2. one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

The first one certainly does not apply to me as I was baptised as a Prebyterian at 4 months of age, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (I still retain the certificate). I however do not agree with all that is taught under the larger banner of Presbyterian dogma. If I was a declared physical member of said church, then I would have long been labelled a subversive thinker who likes to question the accuracy of dogma, dare I say the existence of dogma at all. Just me be nefarious (fragrantly wicked or impious) <I have never been one to just say, 'Yes, Sir' and charge off to do battle in the name of love, or Rome or the inquisition. I tend to hold up my shield of faith, and keep my sword in the sheath until I am sure that I am dealing with bona fide heretic, and then I would need to make sure that I have a direct word from God before I utter such words directly.

Now to the matter of how the Holy Spirit has been bringing the various denominations to a point where there is the Unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17, and to the matter of progressive revelation to the body of Christ as a whole <invisible body - true spirit-filled believers/the elect/disciples of Jesus Christ. I am firmly convinced that what happened to the early church has happened throughout the years.

I wish I could remember everything I have read about Church History and I am deeply sorry I cannot. It is however true to say that God started this and He is continuing to bring His bride to a place where she is unified in the bond of PEACE. (The peace of Christ, of course, not the sort that is being celebrated by the likes of so many who are caught up in a hyper-emotional over-balance, be careful now that we shut the door to tight, for in amongst those who are wolves are baby lambs who like you and I, had to learn to look not to the teachers but to the Master. He is the Great Shepherd of the sheep.) Even the great John Calvin, requested and unmarked grave! It is to Christ that we look and to Him we are under as Head of the Church, not the Church as head, as is taught by Rome. I do not bow to a man, or a organisation be it Rome or the rest of Christiandom)

Agreed certain things like this matter of a gross overbalance on the teaching faith = prosperity, which Copeland attempted to correct. I listened to his series on this.. He really was trying very hard, to correct and error in his perception, but some errors are harder to change as we get older. Needless to say freezing in dogma mode is just as hazardous as freezing in error mode, both do not allow the flexibility that is required from us to notice when the Spirit of God moves on. The Church History has shown that God has moved on, and on, and on, He is not sitting back with one denomination and saying, "They have it all down, and I am calling all to unite under their denomination", as with what is happening with Rome. The errors of Rome are literal when something is spiritual and visa versa. They have relied so much on the dogma that they no longer can see or hear, but they are trying, this Emergent Edge though harmful to some represents two ragged edges crossing over each other. On one side the Protestant Mystics, and the other side the Catholic Mystics...it is a strange thing to have happened, a little frightening. Yes. However, it is not a trainsmash, it is actually possibly the first time that we might see a Church unified under one ideal. It may be grossly wrong, but it is something that needs to be very carefully considered before we make the mistake of shouting, "Heretics" and bring us back to the dark ages. There is a point to consider though. This is not a outing in the park with Winnie the Pooh, this is war, and Satan is right in the cente of this Mystical Alliance. He is the Lord of the Mystics (evil Wizards) but he is not Lord of the Good Wizards. <please excuse my JRR Tolkien reference, it is not done without definite reason. Why?

In my perception of the matter, if you may. We are all Wizards, some are with Satan, and some are with Christ. As we are coming of age and closer and closer to full maturation, it is getting harder and harder to tell a good one from a bad one. To tell a wolf from a sheep. The false doctrines have allowed Bad Wizards to creep in and using similar words and ideas, the showdown is being set for a gigantic delusion. (God inspired) It is WAR, and I am sorry to say this that if we remain cerebral about everything in this war, we are going to be watching rather than participating. So gents if you are going to sit on the sidelines and pass comments, you will be useless in the fray.

Making sense of what appears to be senseless is better than having a high and mighty attitude. If you want to sit in judgment and not get dirty, then you need to look to the mind of Christ, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God ... and the descent into what we are to be, we need to be servants of all men, to truly be his friends, to sit on a mushroom aka. Lewis Carrolesque smoking our hooka <no direct implication to the head honch meant... is to miss the boat that sails in the morning and it is right into the middle of the problem area. No time to take pretty pain killers, we need to shake of the dust of death and put on the armour if we are to really wrestle, we are not called to wrestle with flesh and blood, with men like "___________" and "___________" < purposefully done because I desire to keep my sword in the sheath until the right moment.

Those who refer to Rick Warren and Robert Schuller and Diaprax and whatever, this is old new and the Pied Pipers of Purpose make mince meat out of there scheme, however there is an Emergent edge that is attempting to bring about some form of unity in the Body of Christ and if one is going to go all intellectual and not look deeper to the cry that is going up to the Father for a body unified. It is a bit messy right now, but if we are going to do what has been done, cutting off the circulation to the finger and the toes, because the mind says, the head is right and we are the head, we do need to remember that there is ONE HEAD, even Christ Jesus our Lord. It is to Him that we need to voice our disatisfaction about those with whom we disagree and learn to find the towel, the water, the means whereby to clean what is dirty, not continue to anaethitize, there is nothing worse that ANTI-SEPTIC CHRISTIANITY, IT REVEAL A GREAT BIG BOARD IN THE EYE!

Do I sound to much like Brennan Manning, I am sorry, it is not my intention to stay longer on this board that is neccessary, for I have much work to do. It is simply that I have many true brothers and sisters in Christ who are in other denominations and for this I will not allow my dogma to kill their faith, even if it is defective. I will approach as the Scripture instructs in 'the spirit of meekeness' This is how I believe I am being led. I do not expect you to embrace the Light in this way, but if you have a heart you might realize that of all brothers I have stood hard against Rome and it's dogma, and hard against the like of RW. BH. and their ilk, but it is time to look carefully at what we are doing to one another, it is time only see if they have the Spirit of Christ or not. If we see the Spirit of Christ, then we need to pray, to care but not to hold weighty JUDGMENTS as did Robin. Eternally damning a brother or sister makes us in the hot water...just try to keep in mind what Jesus said, about calling others names...Racca is a very hard word.

Not dead yet.
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:48 AM
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Adopted said:
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evangelist said:
So this is you personal opinion correct?

Yes, and everyone else in this thread except you. Have you read or considered any of the input from the others? There's enough comments and references to keep you busy for some time if you're really willing to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Have you maybe thought about the good things TBN has done for this world , sence they are reaching over 300 million people on this planet???
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:53 AM
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Robin said:
Perhaps too much time has gone by. Read the entire thread again to refresh your memory, Evangelist. This is not a matter of mere opinion. These are indisputably proven facts with more than sufficient documentation from these false teachers' own words - not to mention the testimony of Scripture to the contrary of what they teach.

These teachers represent a departure from the Christian faith not only historically, but Biblically. Unless God grants them repentance, you won't see a single one of them in heaven.

But isn't the good news of our gospel is that a person Believes in the death burial , and resurrection which they all do and teach , but maybe in somethings which you claim as false lose some rewards but not their salvation?

Do you see them a down right athiest and they preach againt the cross of Jesus , and that Jesus is not the Son of God like muslims?

Do they preach that they worship satan or a watch tower, or book of mormons as such?

You and I know people are getting saved so they can't be suporting satan or satan would be going against his own kingdom.
Posted By: straw Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:08 AM
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evangelist said:
Quote
Adopted said:
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evangelist said:
So this is you personal opinion correct?

Yes, and everyone else in this thread except you. Have you read or considered any of the input from the others? There's enough comments and references to keep you busy for some time if you're really willing to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Have you maybe thought about the good things TBN has done for this world , sence they are reaching over 300 million people on this planet???

Dear Evangelist,

This is not about whether or not people do good things or not. There are many people doing good things who are not even Christians, consider the man humanitarian operations throughout the world, that reach millions of starving, sick and diseased people with food, medicine and the like.

This is about spiritual loss of balance. Whenever an organisation, church or denomination emphasizes a particular aspect of Christianity; ie - Bible only, or Spirit only, etc, etc... and trust me these things do not simply happen because people are good or bad, it is more because we are desperate to try and solve the ache that is in the heart of mankind. So we want to heal them, and in our flesh we draw from things like Jungian Psychotherapy, Mystical Eastern stuff and instead of trusting God's Word and His Spirit, we make ourselves a pretty quilt of our own design...problem is that these type of things have been going on as far back as certain renegade heretics disciples for Peter, Polycarp and others.

I appreciate what you are saying, and we really need to learn to love and in a spirit of meekness restore such a one's but it will take wisdom and prayer. We must not be blinded by the light of peoples good works, so often these only cover a deeper root that, to be perfectly honest with you, THE LORD SEES and THE LORD HEALS, and will bring His Bride to purity and holiness; 'for unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain who try to build it, building everything no according to His word.' (Keith Green)

This spirit of meekness, and forgiveness MUST be accompanied by wisdom, discernment and fervency in prayer for ALL saints, and especially those who proclaim the Gospel. It is Paul that tries to stay the judgments by saying that some preach this message for financial gain, and bad motives, but at least the message is going out. This should not set us back in our comfy chairs, but drive us to our knees as St. James, did until his knees were messed up. The call throughout the History of the Church has been a call, not just to missions as these sweet and tender folk are attempting, but a call to prayer and intercession, without which we are prone to slip into the errors made by earlier moves of God.

Your friend,
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:14 AM
The thing about our unity is there is a weak unity , because we are divided in many ways , even in our understanding of each other and the Word of God.
There is more division among christians than the sinner world.
We can't find a perfect church no where , and we will alway find something wrong with others, even with our own partners.
There would be more to complain about , than more we find what is right and good.I found this observation as I seen so many divorces, and church slits, and divisions.
There are people who hate being rich , and seeing other rich, and hate when they are sick , but here of people who know how to live in divine health.
The prosperity message to be a blessing is attacked by the poor , and healing atonement is attack by those who say healing is not for today, and etc, or come against healing scriptures because they are still sick and say it is false teaching and those who teach healing are false teachers and even make video's , MP3 , and write ups against what they don't agree with as lies.
Some say it is about a self centered type of spirit , but God knows the real reasons and the motive behind our differences.I know I can't please everyone , neither can TBN and all the rest of the few Christin channel and ministry we have.Some are called to know the truth , and I think some are decieved to not accept the truth, some have a harden heart, and some are free with a meek spirit.
So I though I should post this just to see what I think about the issue about tv Evangelizing .
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:20 AM
straw

Shouldn't we use spiritual discernmemnt on what is true or not?

1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I think our God like spirit in us would tell us the truth and what is the truth so we can't be decieved.
Posted By: straw Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:37 AM
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evangelist said:
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Robin said:
Perhaps too much time has gone by. Read the entire thread again to refresh your memory, Evangelist. This is not a matter of mere opinion. These are indisputably proven facts with more than sufficient documentation from these false teachers' own words - not to mention the testimony of Scripture to the contrary of what they teach.

These teachers represent a departure from the Christian faith not only historically, but Biblically. Unless God grants them repentance, you won't see a single one of them in heaven.

But isn't the good news of our gospel is that a person Believes in the death burial , and resurrection which they all do and teach , but maybe in somethings which you claim as false lose some rewards but not their salvation?

Do you see them a down right athiest and they preach againt the cross of Jesus , and that Jesus is not the Son of God like muslims?

Do they preach that they worship satan or a watch tower, or book of mormons as such?

You and I know people are getting saved so they can't be suporting satan or satan would be going against his own kingdom.

Oh Evangelist,

Of course a true disciple of Jesus Christ will not lose eternal life, but you are right if we persist in heresy we will lose our rewards at the Bema seat of Christ, being saved as by fire. It is for this reason we need to walk worth of the calling, walking what the bible calls, 'circumspectly' with eyes all around. If we lack wisdom as the Holy Spirit speak by James, we should ask the Lord for wisdom.

There are many humble folks who are not that clever, in wanting to be used of God have borrowed from things they read in a book by this one and that one and being what Jesus calls us 'sheep' we are prone to going astry. It is so important for this reason that we are in fellowship with those who walk according to the truth, for many have strayed into their own ways. It is not that they are fallen away but that they are leading astray others by their hardness of heart and unwillingness to abide in Christ. This is a thing that I know we cannot make one stay in the first love, but it is something that certainly comes upon the Body of Christ as Jesus has revealed to us in Revelation (read the letters to the churches Rev 1-3)

Of course, Robin does not mean they are Atheists or Mormons, it is just that these sheep of the Lord are mixed in with weeds and the Lord of the Harvest, would have us to pray for the one's who are His, that they might be protected and to warn them of the danger of going over into heresy. You see what happens if members of the Body do go over into a SUPER SPIRITUAL thing, we have learned by Church History that it brings terrible shame on the name of God. We know that He defends His name, and will make a swift end, He is coming soon. Amen? We need to be salt and light. Often as James says, the things coming out of our mouths from our hearts are far from that. We do not want peeps to picking briars and thorns off the body, BUT THIS HAPPENS..because we are being perfected, the dross like in gold is being refined by the Lord, and the ministries He has set in the BODY. His body. It is never right for us to point at the toe and curse it because it is not functioning properly, or chop it off...we need the big toe, or else the body will fall over. Spiritually speaking we cut off evil in our lives and this is what happens when fine Christians with noble intentions to reform the planet, green the earth, do the whole humanitarian bit, drag many into...places where we aught not to be. Our first call is to proclaim the Gospel in Spirit and Truth. Problem when peeps just do it in SPIRIT....and leave Truth to grow whatever....Problem also when peeps...just do it in Truth...I mean they just do the head stuff...knowledge is good but it is useless if there is no heart, and I guess that is why we need each other SO MUCH...these folks at TBN are ALL HEART...that is not good, you know what happens in a marriage if the one partner makes ALL THE DECISIONS...sort of a dictatorship..well that ship is bound to SINK to the bottom and divide, and that is what happens when believers who are well intentioned ROAR of in one direction, hanging onto the tail, or the nose or the ear of the Elephant, not that Jesus is an elephant, but it is just that there is so much about Him that we can get off at a tangent, going our own little way...and then the body divides and the world sits up and questions us...is this how God is ? It is so important to try to hold off judgment and I think that Robin understands this for he is helping poeple who are coming out of breakaway groups, like those in CHARISMANIA LAND...see believers like to make their own park to play in, and it happens when they say...BIBLE ONLY, or SPIRIT ONLY..or FAITH only, or HOPE only, or LOVE only...so no matter how much I dislike this word in our current times, we as believers need to learn TOLERANCE with one another and pray and trust God to heal these terrible tears that are happening. It is something so frightening that I understand perfectly how you are feeling, BUT you need to chill and just get on with what the Lord has given you to do.

You have to remember that those who come to Christ under ministries that are unstable will not always be weak, and bring shame to His name but the fall of rate in such situations is alarming. I suggest you read some books on the Evangelical ministries of Dwight L. Moody and Charles Finney. I get a sense of despair many times when I look at where we are going as a body in this world, and then I remember what Jesus said to the disciples when they asked, "but how will anyone be saved."....and Jesus said, "With GOD NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE" ...k.

Your brother,
Posted By: straw Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:43 AM
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evangelist said:
straw

Shouldn't we use spiritual discernmemnt on what is true or not?

1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I think our God like spirit in us would tell us the truth and what is the truth so we can't be decieved.

Dear brother,

This is a VERY good point. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL TRUTH. To sad when we do not allow the Holy Spirit to be as intimately involved in our lives as He was in the EARLY CHURCH. We are prone to stray, but we can have this confidence that the deposit, this seal of His Spirit in us, will IN THE END, make us a beautiful BRIDE for our KING of KINGS, and LORD of LORDS; JESUS CHRIST the LORD.

NB: Just a point! The Scriptures point us to Christ, and Christ points us to the Scriptures. The danger is when we attempt to read the Scriptures by a system and do not let Him lead us and guide us, and comfort and teach and correct and instruct us from these Scriptures. Not only does He do this, but He has set ministries in the body...like evangelists...and they need teachers....and so the body needs each part...other wise slits...I mean splits... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

And one last thing... The Holy Spirit also can minister to us through books and music and well, I guess He can even use a donkey, if we are filled with our own madness...am I a donkey...Hey Benny...I hope you are listening...(you have to remember that when things are not done 'in order' and certain rogue elements get in, you know what I mean, then it's time to call in the heavy artillery...REMEMBER..JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD...it is SCARY, but God is raising up His people as a HOLY NATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, that we might show forth HIS PURITY AND HOLINESS to the world. So sometimes a REBUKE will come and pray that above the noise and shouting they are listening to the voice of GOD, through HIS servants. Pray. What does worry me is if those who are BIBLE ONLY, or SPIRIT only are not listening...if GOD himself will visit them ? We so need to help one another on this road, to many pointing fingers at the other...BIBLE ONLY help SPIRIT only and we might have a united front against the ADVERSITY who is messing with this world big time...WAR! ... repentance, armour, prayer ... then all together COME LORD JESUS!

Salute,
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:16 PM
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straw said:
It is Paul that tries to stay the judgments by saying that some preach this message for financial gain, and bad motives, but at least the message is going out.
Straw,

Let's take a look at that allusion you have made and see if it REALLY says what you evidently think it does, i.e., condone another gospel or a lopsided gospel, which is invariably the same as another gospel. The question is, Do the teachings of those associated with TBN, in particular, conform to biblical truth? or are they false?


Philippians 1:15-18 (ASV) "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: the one [do it] of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel; but the other proclaim Christ of faction, not sincerely, thinking to raise up affliction for me in my bonds. What then? only that in every way, whether in pretence or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and therein I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."


As one can easily discern, Paul is speaking about motives and not the message itself. Indeed he would never condone a dumbing down, truncating of or a different gospel of Christ else he would be guilty of contradiction, which of course would be an indictment against God the Spirit Who inspired what he wrote. (cf. Gal 1:6-9; 2Cor 11:4)

As I and nearly everyone else who is participating in this thread, except yourself and Evangelist, has tried to communicate in the most simple way(s), the issue isn't what appears on the outside in regard to these people, nor what appearances of "good" they might be said to have done, but rather it is a matter of God's TRUTH that is the issue. Do these people teach the TRUTH about God, Christ, sin, salvation, faith, repentance, etc....??? There can be no denying that what they are teaching is antithetical to the Scriptures and to that which has been held by the historic Christian Church, within which the Spirit of God dwells and has appointed as the "pillar of the truth". (1Tim 3:15)


Romans 16:17-18 (ASV) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent."


In His grace,
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:19 AM
Straw said:
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You have to remember that those who come to Christ under ministries that are unstable will not always be weak, and bring shame to His name but the fall of rate in such situations is alarming. I suggest you read some books on the Evangelical ministries of Dwight L. Moody and Charles Finney. I get a sense of despair many times when I look at where we are going as a body in this world, and then I remember what Jesus said to the disciples when they asked, "but how will anyone be saved."....and Jesus said, "With GOD NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE" ...k.

Your brother,

Are you really sure you want to recommend something by Charles Finny?
Are you not aware that he teaches Pelagianism?
Don’t get me wrong, Finny had an uncanny way of getting results, but what he taught certainly was not biblical.
Perhaps a better recommendation would be CH Spurgeon, or someone like Jonathon Edwards.
A lot has been written comparing what Finny taught against what the Scripture teaches. If I had time, I would post at least one or two articles, but right now I don’t.
Let’s just say that what Pelagius taught was against what Augustine taught.
But then again, seeing as how much you claim to read, I would be surprised if you didn’t already know that.


Perhaps someone else has an appropriate article on this.

Tom
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:37 AM
Here ya go Tom (thanks to the Google search on The Highway's main page). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

- Charles G. Finney: How Theology Affects Understanding of Revival, by Ian Murray

- Charles Finney and the Disappearance of Revival, by Clive Taylor

- Charles Finney's Doctrine of Justification, by David Linden

- Church-O-Rama or Corporate Worship, by Monte Wilson

- The Pelagian Captivity of the Church, by R.C. Sproul

Okay... there are more but those should do nicely for a starting place. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,
Quote
evangelist said:
Have you maybe thought about the good things TBN has done for this world , sence they are reaching over 300 million people on this planet???

What are all the good things TBN has done for these 300 million people they supposedly reach? Lied to them about the nature of God? Wrested the Scriptures to their own condemnation? Proclaimed the false gospel of promised health and prosperity? Displayed their materialistic vanity for all to see? Lot of "good" TBN has done, indeed!
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:24 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
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evangelist said:
Have you maybe thought about the good things TBN has done for this world , sence they are reaching over 300 million people on this planet???

What are all the good things TBN has done for these 300 million people they supposedly reach? Lied to them about the nature of God? Wrested the Scriptures to their own condemnation? Proclaimed the false gospel of promised health and prosperity? Displayed their materialistic vanity for all to see? Lot of "good" TBN has done, indeed!

I think this is your personal opinion , but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:57 PM
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evangelist said:
I think this is your personal opinion , but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.
Well, it certainly seems apparent that you do not hold to any form of "propositional" (objective) truth since no matter what any one says which is contrary to what you "feel", it is wrong. There is only one God, one Jesus Christ, one Holy Spirit, one way unto salvation and much more which the Bible teaches. You and your TBN false teachers hold to doctrines which are in opposition to what most everyone here, those doctrines held as truth by the historic Christian Church and more importantly, that which Scripture clearly teaches. Both can't be right. The consequences of believing false teaching is immeasurable.


Galatians 1:6-9 (ASV) "I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; which is not another [gospel] only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema [cursed/damned]."

2 Corinthians 11:3-5 (ASV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or [if] ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with [him]. For I reckon that I am not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles."

Matthew 7:21-23 (ASV) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew [loved] you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


In His grace,
Hmmm- I need time to sift through all the articles- but his Justification article is quite...alarming

Quote
That the penitent soul remains justified no longer than this full-hearted consecration continues

To me- saying that Justification is something that can be lost and needs to be regained is contrary to the teachings of the Bible. The Bible never suggests (at least- no passage I've ever heard of) that if we are not 100% obedient- we lose our justification. Indeed- being 100% obedient is practically impossible unless you are sinless- something we all know is impossible except for Him. We can never hope to become "spotless" without His sacrifice and intervention- Justification isn't something that's earned- it's something that is freely given if we accept His sacrifice and believe in Him. This view, IMO, is work-based faith and is something to be discouraged. You can not put yourself into the equation in substitute for Jesus Christ (that's how I felt he was meaning- could me a misinterpretation on my part).

To me- this view on Justification goes against most of the teachings of the NT- it is Him who allows us to be saved- we can not make ourselves pure.
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evangelist said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
What are all the good things TBN has done for these 300 million people they supposedly reach? Lied to them about the nature of God? Wrested the Scriptures to their own condemnation? Proclaimed the false gospel of promised health and prosperity? Displayed their materialistic vanity for all to see? Lot of "good" TBN has done, indeed!

I think this is your personal opinion

No, it is not "my personal opinion." It is the God-honest TRUTH. Your idea that TBN has done a lot of good, and that many are being saved through their "ministry," is a falsehood and a delusion. The satanic lies of TBN are leading thousands straight to the pit, and those loud-mouthed scoundrels will be held accountable before God Almighty for their snake-oil salesmanship.

Quote
but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.

And I suggest you exercise your ability to turn off TBN post-haste.
Posted By: William Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:49 AM
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TBN’s Prayer of Salvation

"Dear Jesus, I believe in You. I believe You are the Son of God, that You died for my sins, and that You were buried and rose again as written in the Bible. I'm sorry for the things I've done that hurt You. Forgive me for all my sins. Come into my heart, take charge of my life and make me the way You want me to be. With Your ever present help, I renounce all my sinful practices of the past. Cleanse my heart with Your precious blood. Write my name in Your Book of Life. I confess You now as my Lord and Savior. Fill me with Your Holy Spirit. Thank You, Jesus! In Jesus' Name, Amen."


There are many references to the Lamb's book of life in the book of Revelation.
17:8 teaches that God had already written this book from the foundation of the world or it could just the Bible’s opinion.


[color:"0000FF"]The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. [/color]


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evangelist said to Adopted:

So this is you personal opinion correct?

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evangelist said to CovenantInBlood:

I think this is your personal opinion , but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.


By the way “the book of life” includes only those who are the objects of God's sovereign particular grace and that is not my opinion but the teaching of scripture. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


.
Posted By: Johan Re: To whom it may concern: - Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:27 AM
I'm coming in on this at a late stage. Just a question or so to Straw and Evangelist.

Quote
straw said:
Tom,
I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see.
It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning.
forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No?

So Straw, who are the people Paul is talking about when he warns the Ephesian elders with the following words (Acts 20):

28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

31"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Is Paul refering to the false teachers as "little lambs gone astray"? No, he is calling them "savage wolves". And is Paul talking about "little lambs gone astray" in 2 Cor. 11:13 - 15? And what about what the Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3? Note how Peter says "they will secretly introduce destructive heresies". Also Jude says that false teachers "have secretly slipped in among you". Thus, false teachers do not immediately announce that they reject this or that fundamental doctrine of true Christianity. False teaching introduces error bit by bit, without people realizing that they are slowly being led away from the Truth.
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:33 PM
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CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
What are all the good things TBN has done for these 300 million people they supposedly reach? Lied to them about the nature of God? Wrested the Scriptures to their own condemnation? Proclaimed the false gospel of promised health and prosperity? Displayed their materialistic vanity for all to see? Lot of "good" TBN has done, indeed!

I think this is your personal opinion

No, it is not "my personal opinion." It is the God-honest TRUTH. Your idea that TBN has done a lot of good, and that many are being saved through their "ministry," is a falsehood and a delusion. The satanic lies of TBN are leading thousands straight to the pit, and those loud-mouthed scoundrels will be held accountable before God Almighty for their snake-oil salesmanship.

Quote
but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.

And I suggest you exercise your ability to turn off TBN post-haste.

But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God cahnnel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:50 AM


Quote
But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God cahnnel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.

Do you think that changes anything, being as they have the same hosts?

Tom
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:20 PM
Quote
Tom said:


Quote
But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God channel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.

Do you think that changes anything, being as they have the same hosts?

Tom
No but they control better those who are speaching the real gospel of the bible and the will of God.

Have your heard of Joyce Meyer?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:43 PM
Quote
evangelist said:
No but they control better those who are speaching the <span style="background-color:yellow">real gospel of the bible</span> and the will of God. <emphasis mine: Pilgrim>
Evangelist,

Why it is you don't seem to comprehend the seriousness of what everyone, including myself have been trying to convey to you I can only guess. But what is apparently true is you just don't get it!! And just what is it that you don't get? Well, it is that this "real gospel of the Bible" which you claim the TBN preachers and followers believe is not the "real gospel of the Bible" at all but something alien to it. The Gospel which the Christian Church has taught for centuries upon centuries is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the "gospel" which those you hold in high regard believe and teach. Sooooo, either you and they are holding to the truth or the historic Christian church holds the truth. Someone is seriously wrong. And I emphasize seriously, because the errors are such that to hold to those errors means damnation. This is not my opinion but it is rather what Paul wrote:

Quote
Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Do you understand what Paul wrote there? He said there is only ONE Gospel. And that ONE Gospel is that which he and the other Apostles and Disciples preached and taught. ANY other gospel is no Gospel at all. There is no room for a wishy-washy tolerance when it comes to the Gospel. You either have it right.. or you have it wrong. And, if you have it wrong, then Paul says "may you be accursed (anathema), i.e., cast out of the Church excommunicated, deemed as an unbeliever and/or a heretic. This is serious stuff.

Again, the judgment Paul pronounces is NOT based upon how one looks, how much money one makes or doesn't make, how large a following or fancy a building one erects, how many people are allegedly blessed, how happy one is, or any such thing. The sentence of being accursed falls upon those who hold to and preach/teach different DOCTRINE.... another Gospel. Again Paul writes:

Quote
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (KJV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]."
Paul's concern here is identical to that which he wrote to the churches in Galatia. The issue is DOCTRINAL.... the Gospel. That which is not the same as that which Paul and the other Apostles and Disciples preached is utterly and totally rejected. It isn't enough to simply speak the word, "Jesus", for there is only ONE Jesus of the Bible. So one must ask, "Jesus who?" and "What did this Jesus do?", etc. Once again, those of the TBN group preach and teach a different Jesus than the Jesus that the historic Christian Church has proclaimed for centuries. Someone is wrong. And whoever is wrong, leading multitudes of people astray, and is liable to judgment along with all those who follow them.

Would you PLEASE take the short time required to read this: What is the Gospel?. Consider what the author has written and then compare that to what you and all those belonging to TBN and similar groups are teaching. At least you should be able to see that there is a black & white difference between the two. Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision. I would hope that is worth some of your time.

In His grace,
Posted By: Robin Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:53 AM
Quote
But it feeeeeels so good, it must be God!

Perhaps the biggest problem in helping people who don't see the extreme danger of following these Charismatic teachers is getting them to understand and accept that they are addicted to that feeling described above. When these ear-tickling teachings resonate in the soul because they seem to meet some felt need, the resulting glee is attributed to the presence of God Himself. And how dare you call that a bad thing! To do so is, to many caught up in the movement, "blaspheming the Holy Spirit."

I'm in the process of completing an article on reaching Charismatic and Pentecostal loved ones whose souls may be in very real peril as they blissfully follow their feelings straight into apostasy.

Arguing is rarely actually helpful. We cannot make religious addicts see reason - especially because they have been taught not to use reason nor to trust in reason, but to "feel the Spirit" and follow "the anointing."

Nothing will move a religious addict to give up his beloved teachings until those teachings fail him over and over again, forcing the religious addict to confront the facts and examine the teachings instead of his or her own feelings.

It's a tough challenge! But not impossible for God!

-Robin
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:50 PM
Pilgrim wrote to Evangelist:

Quote
Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision.

Pilgrim,
How is that? Or is it “your decision hinges entirely upon what has already been decided”?

Or is it that if the Holy Spirit has irresistibly led one to agree (choose to decide to agree) with Calvinism, then this might be evidence that one ‘might be’ elect? And this agreement is some type of decision that man is responsible to make? I especially think that Calvinism replaces, confuses and substitutes the ‘true’ Gospel call for sincere repentance, faith and trust with ‘submission’ to doctrine/portrait of “God’s character” aka ‘the Gospel according to Calvinism’ (And I think it’s defamation of His character and creation).

According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing, and whether or not you decide/choose to agree (submit in humility- a work) that you are a miserable puppet creature doesn’t matter one iota as to your eternal destiny. So, if you do ‘agree’, what you agree to is the distilled portrait painted of God by Calvinism... and the only thing one can do is ‘agree’ and (thus believe... a verb) ‘as if’ he/she is elect... called to agree/choose Calvin’s theology. Called or not... apparently decision is important. Agreeing to this portrait of God’s character requires the Calvinist to reject their earlier (usually ‘Arminian’) first understanding of what the ‘good news’ is... which some would call their ‘conversion’ or their decision to believe in Christ (repentance, faith, trust)... and call this evil... and submit to a different God, who can’t be trusted, because of his ‘secretive will’ and double-speak. Who delights in the destruction of souls? According to Calvinism... God does. Besides, according to Calvinism the only souls that can be destroyed are just fulfilling their destiny to His Glory. So... Go TBN... empowered by the Sovereignty of God.

I read a thought provoking article concerning this type of world-view. The entire focus of Calvinism is man’s depraved status and sinful state against God. And it is more than clear that the entire discussions of Calvinism are bent around accepting this Calvinistic portrait of God’s character... period.... and idolatry of doctrine. Yet, when man sins... it is against his neighbor, friend, wife, business associate, stranger... and although I don’t think the following verse by itself sums up ‘the Gospel’, (because, apparently there are many) it comes to my mind as how Christians honor Christ “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” And if God has a secretive will, I think it has more to do with such. And I know Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and yes, Bahai persons who live like this and take it to their depraved hearts... and think that this matters more than making one’s priority to be defending or submitting to a doctrine, for doctrine’s sake, in which man selfishly focuses on whether or not he’s a saved puppet... which is a pointless effort for puppets (and damn everyone else)... because if you look at the picture long enough, how does one not begin to look the same way?


Helpless !
-- by “vilmos”

I sit on the subway.
Someone is crawling inside my hat.
There's an ant on the floor too.
I am helpless ! How could I save it ?
How to save all the ants in the wrong places ?

I am dozing in the grass.
Slowly I raise my eyelids.
An ant is standing on its hind legs
waving its antennas.

"YOU KILLED GRANPA!" I recieve its accusation.
Then : "Granpa is no more !"

What can one do ?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:26 PM
Kathy,

I see that you are still confused more than ever concerning historic Christianity. [Linked Image] Like so many lost souls today, you reject "propositional truth" for something else, e.g., one's feelings, one's opinions, one's imagination concerning God. The Bible makes a self-attestation that IT is the very word of God which He providentially guided to be written down through the agency of a group of chosen vessels (men) who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thus everything in the Bible is true truth, i.e., without error. Now, if one would do even a cursory study of the Bible on the word "doctrine", it would reveal that there is ONE SET OF DOCTRINES to which men are to acknowledge as truth, submit to those doctrines and further, to teach those doctrines to others.


Jude 1:3 (ASV) "Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints."


The "faith" mentioned above is a synonym for "truth" or "doctrine", i.e., the will of God revealed to which all men are to submit. Granted, acknowledging a set of teachings does not save anyone. But one cannot be saved without embracing the truth either. Similarly, one is not a Christian if one reads the Bible regularly, prays, attends worship services, helps the poor, etc... But, one cannot be a Christian who does not do those things either. Such things are evidences of a possible saving faith but not the proximate cause of saving faith.

When it comes to the Gospel, it is only logical that it is a set of truths which reveal the person and nature of God, the person of Christ and the Holy Spirit, the atoning work of Christ, the condition of man, his lost condition the necessity of evangelical repentance and faith in Christ and the coming judgment. Such things are not subject to the whim of man's opinion but are "set in stone" as it were and cannot be diminished nor denied and still be deemed the Gospel. There are countless "gods", "christs", "spirits" and "gospels" which are proclaimed today. Only one (or theoretically none) can be true which means all others are false and do not represent the truth which God has revealed. So yes, one's eternal destiny depends upon WHAT a man believes. An artist may paint a portrait of another but depending upon how accurate that portrait is it may or may not truly "represent" the subject. What we believe is that Calvinism is the closest representation of the truth of God and all matters of faith and life which God has set forth in the Bible. Now, you may disagree but then the onus is upon YOU to discredit and disprove that claim since Calvinism has been the foundation of the Church for millennia. Just a small bit of advice if you accept the challenge: Hordes of men have tried to disprove Calvinism and have failed miserably. One may choose to reject the truth, but truth cannot be disproven by substituting falsehood.

Here are a couple of salient articles:

1) Creeds and Standards: Their Significance and Functions, by Gerrit Hendrik Hospers
2) Is Doctrine Necessary, by Michael Bremmer

In His grace,
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:53 PM
Pilgrim,

I’m less confused about historic Christianity. The entire basis for your Doctrine Worship is a circular argument, that can be disproven to thinking individuals, but that requires thinking... an intellectual ability given to mankind by the Creator. Augustine, your idol’s idol believed thinking should not be allowed... especially for women, who should not be educated, but segregated from men... because they are to blame for what vexed him and as a result, his influence vexed families and women for centuries. Other great men like him have come and gone... some contributed to vexing society, others inspired others. You assume that I must color within the lines of the ‘hordes’ to come up against the great genius brilliant lawyer, intellectually elitism/Pharisee for God... but I don’t.

In another time, this anti-thinking approach might argue whether one should save someone who is drowning, because of what day of the week it is. Today it discusses the damnation of infants.

You assume I am basing my statements on my imagination, my feelings, my subjectivity, and while I do possess these attributes, I am not basing my conclusions on them... or what “feels good.” I am basing my conclusions on much observation, and a term used in the Declaration of Independence ‘self evident’ which went on in an entirely anti-Calvinist manner. And likewise, in that manner the promise that this nation’s government would not persecute me for not believing the same as you... something of a victory that took millennia against the mentality of the hordes (and the Grace of God – I believe) to establish. That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).
Posted By: William Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:31 AM

Quote
Kathy said:
. . . According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. . .


Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.



[color:"0000FF"]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:37-41 (King James Version)

.
[/color]
Posted By: Peter Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:05 AM
Quote
That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).

Okay so lets see how well that holds to the truth:
  • Episcopalian/Anglican 32
  • Congregationalist 13
  • Presbyterian 12
  • Quaker 2
  • Unitarian 2
  • Roman Catholic 1

Congregationalists had the Savoy Declaration a Reformed (Calvinist) document, Episcopalians/Anglicans hold to the 39 Articles which have Calvinistic doctrines regarding free will, justification, and salvation. Do I really need to go on about Presbyterians? Seems the majority of the founding fathers were actually Calvinist or at least aware of the doctrines of grace. Oh btw where I got the list was here.
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:04 AM
Williams 2 cents:
Quote
According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.

William,

That is called a “Straw man” statement, and is not close to hardly what Arminianism portrays as ‘the Gospel’. On the other hand, Calvinism clearly does have one sole focus... and it clearly does live and breathe to add a disclaimer to John 3:16. And that is not a Straw Man argument. And no, I am not saying that Arminianism claims John 3:16 to be the whole Gospel. Pilgrim often states “context, context...” and I think that Calvinists are the biggest offenders of such.

Pilgrim,

You stated that Calvinism was the first doctrine of the true Church. You and others that share your faith state impossible statements as ‘fact’. If I were to hold up the color purple, you would tell me it’s green. For instance, you state Calvinism has won the debate. There are hordes who state Calvinism lost.

It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin... which he based upon his subjective understanding of Scripture, influenced by his Gnostic ascetism and his struggle/angst with his libido and the opposite sex. His words and ideas were used as support for torturing heretics... and for priests ordered to desert their wives and children... which can be supported by the Bible... or not.

The Bible may state that there is “ONE DOCTRINE”... but clearly there are many and the list gets longer every day. I dispute that there ever was One Doctrine... as there is evidence to the contrary. The Bible has been used to support a myriad of ‘true’ statements that are in total opposition to each other. No... I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, as there are facts and evidence to the contrary. Facts and evidence that I doubt you would honestly consider for reasons I do understand. And yes, that leaves me with a pair of scissors and Jefferson’s Bible to wonder about, and Tom Paine.... with the Augustine quote about ‘picking and choosing’... which he himself did.

I am sure that those told the Koran is the Word of God, are also expected never to investigate the truth of that claim... same goes for the Book of Mormon.
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:14 AM
Boanerges,

This is in partial response to your post:


[color:"0000FF"]Anti-Calvinist ideology:[/color]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Calvinist language:
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. "John Calvin

* * * * * *


Quote
http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/defenders.html

We are quoting from the Calvinist CONFESSION OF FAITH, Revised in the National Synod, Held at Dordrecht, in the years 1618 and 1619. This confession is included into THE THREE FORMS OF UNITY (with the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dordrecht), and is also known as The BELGIC CONFESSION. It is traditionally accepted by the Reformed Churches and denominations.

Listen how it promotes the union of the church and the state. The civil government is not only to regulate, promote, and/or punish with sword civil matters, but religious matters as well.

XXXVI - Of Magistrates

We believe that our gracious God, because of the depravity of mankind, hath appointed kings, princes and magistrates, willing that the world should be governed by certain laws and policies< to the end that the dissoluteness of men might be restrained, and all things carried on among them with good order and decency. For this purpose he hath invested the magistracy with the sword, for the punishment of evil-doers, and for the protection of them that do well. And their office is, not only to have regard unto, and watch for the welfare of the civil state; but also that they protect the sacred ministry [of a Calvinist kind]; and thus may remove and prevent all idolatry and false worship [all other religious beliefs and expressions]; * that the kingdom of anti-christ may be thus destroyed [by sword and the stake] and the kingdom of Christ promoted."


And then, the modern Calvinist publishers have added this comment,
* This phrase, touching the office of the magistracy in its relation to the Church, proceeds on the principle of the Established Church, which was first applied by Constantine and afterwards also in many Protestant countries. HISTORY, however, does no support the principle of State domination over the Church, but rather the separation of Church and State.

Do you see what they say, "History ... does not support the principle" of Church-State union. So, it's not the Bible they are building their doctrine, but it is history that FORCES them to change their doctrine and practice, and adopt democratic, pluralistic, tolerant point of view (separation of church and state)! Meanwhile, in 16th and 17th century thousands of Anabaptists, Mennonites, Baptists, and Quakers suffered because of this Babylonian principle. Has the history continued to "support" union of church and state, Calvinists would still be teaching and practicing that. And persecuting the people of God.
Posted By: Robin Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:23 AM
Wow, how did we end up so far off the topic??

But in reply to your criticisms of the Reformed view of the role of the civil magistrate, keep context in mind! This would be the role of the civil magistrate in a Christian nation! Clearly, the United States is not a "Christian nation," however, so the role of government in applying the death penalty to heretics does not apply where you are trying to apply it, Kathy.

In a nation where the law of the land mandated that the national religion be according to a certain doctrinal standard (as in Calvin's Geneva or Queen Mary's England), then the role of the civil magistrate in enforcing that law could be considered valid.

Certain English colonies were founded originally as "Presbyterian states" or "Congregationalist states" where the law of the land did specify what was to be believed and taught in churches. And in such governments the excerpt you cite would apply. But in a free nation where religious freedom is the law of the land, civil magistrates do not hold such power, and rightfully so.

Context is vital!

-Robin
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:08 PM
Robin,

I realize that the US does not apply the death penalty to heretics. The 'context' was to illustrate the difference between 'Anti-Calvinist' language and 'Calvinist' language, by comparing these two documents (which I did). Thankfully, I guess, America is a Deist Nation that welcomes plurality of beliefs and not a Christian nation [of a 'Calvinist kind']
Posted By: Kathy Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:15 PM
Boanerges,

(my last post as second part to a partial response)

I realize that there are conflicting tallies, and biased summations of what the Religious beliefs were of the Founding Fathers. *The reason I brought the topic up was mainly the term ‘self-evident’ and to point out the Anti-Calvinistic language and philosophy represented. Below is additional information and quotes from (some) influential first Americans concerning their religious views.


Quote
http://chalicechick.blogspot.com/2007/05/more-on-founding-fathers.html

Benjamin Franklin
in a letter to William Short, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"The Presbyterian clergy are the loudest, most intolerant of all sects; the most tyrannical and ambitious, ready at the work of the law-giver, if such a word could be obtained, to put their torch to the pile and to rekindle in this virgin hemisphere the flame in which their oracle, Calvin, consumed the poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe to the proposition of Calvin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to the Calvinistic Creed! They pant to re-establish by law that holy inquisition which they can now only infuse into public opinion."


Quote
www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

George Washington

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

George Washington was a Freemason

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

Thomas Jefferson

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."


John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."
In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America"[b]

[1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

[b]"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


James Madison

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."


Benjamin Franklin

...His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."


In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)
Posted By: Robin Back to Topic Please? - Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:31 PM
I suggest a new thread if you want to talk about the religious leanings of the founders of your nation. Please.

Attached picture 65220-BackToTopic.gif
Quote
And this agreement is some type of decision that man is responsible to make?

Man is responsible to love and obey God, but incapable because utterly unwilling because totally enslaved to sin. Man has a will, he is able to exercise it according to the desires of his heart and the limitations of his nature.

Quote
I especially think that Calvinism replaces, confuses and substitutes the ‘true’ Gospel call for sincere repentance, faith and trust with ‘submission’ to doctrine/portrait of “God’s character” aka ‘the Gospel according to Calvinism’ (And I think it’s defamation of His character and creation).

Okay, then, what is the "true" Gospel, according to Kathy? Opposing Calvinism isn't enough to define your views.

Quote
According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing, and whether or not you decide/choose to agree (submit in humility- a work) that you are a miserable puppet creature doesn’t matter one iota as to your eternal destiny.

The "good news" for man is that God has sent Christ into the world to save His people from their sins. This salvation is offered freely to all who will come. As I explained above, however, no one will desire to come because all are enslaved to sin. Therefore God must change their hearts and instill in them the desire to come. It simply is not true that whether you "decide" or "agree" doesn't matter. We are not "miserable puppet creatures." Your choices do matter, but you will not choose rightly unless God transforms your heart. Those whom God chooses to transform are "His elect," and they will come to him--freely. Those whom God does not choose to transform will never desire to come to Him, but will live forever in rebellion against Him, and will receive the wrath justly due to them.

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and submit to a different God, who can’t be trusted, because of his ‘secretive will’ and double-speak.

The unregenerate cannot trust God, that is true. Like you, when exposed to the truth without being born-again, they proclaim that this God can't be trusted and is deceptive--they fall for exactly the lie of the serpent in the Garden. "Did God really say . . . ? You will not surely die, for God knows . . ." And so they confirm themselves in their own rebellion, declaring that this God is not "worthy" of their worship.

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Yet, when man sins... it is against his neighbor, friend, wife, business associate, stranger...

"Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be justified in Your words and blameless in Your judgment" (Ps. 51:4).

Quote
and think that this matters more than making one’s priority to be defending or submitting to a doctrine, for doctrine’s sake, in which man selfishly focuses on whether or not he’s a saved puppet

"Whoever believe in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (Jh. 3:18).
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That is called a “Straw man” statement, and is not close to hardly what Arminianism portrays as ‘the Gospel’. On the other hand, Calvinism clearly does have one sole focus... and it clearly does live and breathe to add a disclaimer to John 3:16. And that is not a Straw Man argument.

Not a straw man because you say so, right? Because you've presented no argument, only bare assertion. Your opposition to Calvinism is perfectly clear, but it will not suffice for you to make accusations against Calvinism as "argument" while accusing William of presenting a straw man!

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It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin...

Try Paul: "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

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No... I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, as there are facts and evidence to the contrary.

Just like there were "facts and evidence" for your conspiracy theories about the Jews and Noahides? You haven't got a leg to stand on, much less when speaking about God. You've only ever demonstrated one thing in your posts to this forum in regard to God: lamentable ignorance. If you do not care to learn the truth, so be it, but then why continue your involvement here, after so long an absence? To what purpose?
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I am basing my conclusions on much observation, and a term used in the Declaration of Independence ‘self evident’ which went on in an entirely anti-Calvinist manner. And likewise, in that manner the promise that this nation’s government would not persecute me for not believing the same as you... something of a victory that took millennia against the mentality of the hordes (and the Grace of God – I believe) to establish. That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).

Ah, so your idol is this idea of America!
Posted By: Paul_S Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:06 AM
Quote
Quote
Kathy:
It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin...
Kyle:
Try Paul: "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

Paul, with a little help from his friends:

Moses: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5, ESV)

David: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5, ESV)

Solomon: "there is no one who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46, ESV)

Isaiah: "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you" (Isaiah 64:6-7, ESV)

Jeremiah: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV)

Jesus: "from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." (Mark 7:21-23, ESV)

James: "whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (James 2:10, ESV)

Peter: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18, ESV)
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:55 AM
Kathy

I believe this conversation has gone off topic.
Although it is true that most of us on this site believe that Calvinism is the true Gospel. Since the topic is TSN where teachers like Hagin, Copeland, Hinn and many others preach. I would go as far as to say that the false gospel that these teachers teach isn't even Arminianism, for most knowledgeable Arminians would reject what these teachers teach.
Though it is true that these false teachers have more in common with Arminianism than Calvinism and may have their roots in Arminianism. I think they have gone so far away from those roots that they are not even recognizable.

So I believe the argument should not be Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but (since this is a Calvinist site) Calvinism vs. Word of Faith teaching.

Do you believe Word of Faith preachers teach the Word of God, or not?

Tom
Posted By: William Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:53 PM
Quote
William said:

Quote
Kathy said:
. . . According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. . .


Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.



[color:"0000FF"]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:37-41

.
[/color]


Kathy, I know you are being bombarded from all sides nevertheless I feel in good company for holding to a straw man statement but thank you anyway.

In Peace
William


Quote
Calvin said:


“Now while many arguments are advanced on both sides, let our conclusion be to stand astonished with Paul at so great a mystery; and amidst the clamor of petulant tongues let us not be ashamed to exclaim with him, ’O man, who art thou that repliest against God?’ For, as Augustine justly contends, “it is acting a most perverse part to set up the measure of human justice as the standard by which to measure the justice of God.”

History of the Christian Church
By Philip Schaff pg.460




Now when many notions are adduced on both sides, let this be our conclusion: to tremble with Paul at so deep a mystery; but, if froward tongues clamor, not to be ashamed of this exclamation of his: “Who are you, O man, to argue with God?” (Romans 9:20). For as Augustine truly contends, they who measure divine justice by the standard of human justice are acting perversely.

Institutes of the Christian Religion vol. 3
Battles Translation (1960) pg. 479


Finally, after all that has been adduced on this side and on that, let it be our conclusion to feel overawed with Paul at the great depth, and if petulant tongues will still murmur, let us not be ashamed to join in his exclamation, “Nay, but, O man, who art thou that replies against God?” (Romans 9:20.) Truly does Augustine maintain that it is perverse to measure divine by the standard of human justice,

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Beveridge Translation (1800) pg. 1096

.
Quote
[color:"0000FF"]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Romans 9:20[/color]

.
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:06 PM
William

I may be wrong about this, but something tells me that if Kathy became convinced that Calvinism, was the true Gospel, she would probably reject God entirely.
I hope I am wrong about that.

Tom
Posted By: Adopted Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:40 PM
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Paul_S said:
David: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5, ESV)

David also wrote Psalm 14 by the Spirit of God:

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Psalm 14 [NKJV]

1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the LORD?
5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor,
But the LORD is his refuge.

7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people,
Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:59 AM
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
evangelist said:
No but they control better those who are speaching the <span style="background-color:yellow">real gospel of the bible</span> and the will of God. <emphasis mine: Pilgrim>
Evangelist,

Why it is you don't seem to comprehend the seriousness of what everyone, including myself have been trying to convey to you I can only guess. But what is apparently true is you just don't get it!! And just what is it that you don't get? Well, it is that this "real gospel of the Bible" which you claim the TBN preachers and followers believe is not the "real gospel of the Bible" at all but something alien to it. The Gospel which the Christian Church has taught for centuries upon centuries is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the "gospel" which those you hold in high regard believe and teach. Sooooo, either you and they are holding to the truth or the historic Christian church holds the truth. Someone is seriously wrong. And I emphasize seriously, because the errors are such that to hold to those errors means damnation. This is not my opinion but it is rather what Paul wrote:

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Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Do you understand what Paul wrote there? He said there is only ONE Gospel. And that ONE Gospel is that which he and the other Apostles and Disciples preached and taught. ANY other gospel is no Gospel at all. There is no room for a wishy-washy tolerance when it comes to the Gospel. You either have it right.. or you have it wrong. And, if you have it wrong, then Paul says "may you be accursed (anathema), i.e., cast out of the Church excommunicated, deemed as an unbeliever and/or a heretic. This is serious stuff.

Again, the judgment Paul pronounces is NOT based upon how one looks, how much money one makes or doesn't make, how large a following or fancy a building one erects, how many people are allegedly blessed, how happy one is, or any such thing. The sentence of being accursed falls upon those who hold to and preach/teach different DOCTRINE.... another Gospel. Again Paul writes:

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2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (KJV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]."
Paul's concern here is identical to that which he wrote to the churches in Galatia. The issue is DOCTRINAL.... the Gospel. That which is not the same as that which Paul and the other Apostles and Disciples preached is utterly and totally rejected. It isn't enough to simply speak the word, "Jesus", for there is only ONE Jesus of the Bible. So one must ask, "Jesus who?" and "What did this Jesus do?", etc. Once again, those of the TBN group preach and teach a different Jesus than the Jesus that the historic Christian Church has proclaimed for centuries. Someone is wrong. And whoever is wrong, leading multitudes of people astray, and is liable to judgment along with all those who follow them.

Would you PLEASE take the short time required to read this: What is the Gospel?. Consider what the author has written and then compare that to what you and all those belonging to TBN and similar groups are teaching. At least you should be able to see that there is a black & white difference between the two. Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision. I would hope that is worth some of your time.

In His grace,

I see no difference with my ministry as with many of those from TBN, as we support each other, in one faith , the good gospel of Christ , and being one body, and as we believe together in the same baptism.
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:23 AM
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straw said:
Quote
evangelist said:
straw

Shouldn't we use spiritual discernmemnt on what is true or not?

1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I think our God like spirit in us would tell us the truth and what is the truth so we can't be decieved.

Dear brother,

This is a VERY good point. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL TRUTH. To sad when we do not allow the Holy Spirit to be as intimately involved in our lives as He was in the EARLY CHURCH. We are prone to stray, but we can have this confidence that the deposit, this seal of His Spirit in us, will IN THE END, make us a beautiful BRIDE for our KING of KINGS, and LORD of LORDS; JESUS CHRIST the LORD.

NB: Just a point! The Scriptures point us to Christ, and Christ points us to the Scriptures. The danger is when we attempt to read the Scriptures by a system and do not let Him lead us and guide us, and comfort and teach and correct and instruct us from these Scriptures. Not only does He do this, but He has set ministries in the body...like evangelists...and they need teachers....and so the body needs each part...other wise slits...I mean splits... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

And one last thing... The Holy Spirit also can minister to us through books and music and well, I guess He can even use a donkey, if we are filled with our own madness...am I a donkey...Hey Benny...I hope you are listening...(you have to remember that when things are not done 'in order' and certain rogue elements get in, you know what I mean, then it's time to call in the heavy artillery...REMEMBER..JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD...it is SCARY, but God is raising up His people as a HOLY NATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, that we might show forth HIS PURITY AND HOLINESS to the world. So sometimes a REBUKE will come and pray that above the noise and shouting they are listening to the voice of GOD, through HIS servants. Pray. What does worry me is if those who are BIBLE ONLY, or SPIRIT only are not listening...if GOD himself will visit them ? We so need to help one another on this road, to many pointing fingers at the other...BIBLE ONLY help SPIRIT only and we might have a united front against the ADVERSITY who is messing with this world big time...WAR! ... repentance, armour, prayer ... then all together COME LORD JESUS!

Salute,

I don't think Benny Hinn would waste his time on a debate board just because of two or three people going against him , when he has millions on his side and support his belief , and ministry.
TBN mention that there will always be thousands who will sa TBN preach another gospel, but they are not afraid, because no weapon will prosper against them anyways.
There is more for these great awesome tv broadcast tha thos e against, so they already are winning the will of God.
Posted By: jaf Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:47 PM
evangelist,
The people on the highway are sincerely trying to help you. The people on tbn are 1)trying to rob you of your money.For this is their "god". 2)they being of their father the devil seek to rob you of your very soul. It is indeed sad and tragic that you haven't been able to discern the truth. I have read all that you have posted and all that has been posted in an effort to help you. It appears that you do not have "ears to hear". The Scriptures instruct us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Please,I beseech you to take the counsel of those who've responded to your posts VERY SERIOUSLY. Pray that God would grant you wisdom and discernment. You have not because you ask not. jaf
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:46 PM
evangelist says:
Quote
I see no difference with my ministry as with many of those from TBN, as we support each other, in one faith , the good gospel of Christ , and being one body, and as we believe together in the same baptism.

Are you aware that you basically said you believe a different gospel than what has been taught through out history by people from Paul, to Augustine, to Calvin to Sproul?
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:07 AM
Quote
Tom said:
Are you aware that you basically said you believe a different gospel than what has been taught through out history by people from Paul, to Augustine, to Calvin to Sproul?
Tom,

I seriously doubt that this man has even heard of Augustine, Calvin or Sproul and more so, he couldn't care less who they were or what they taught. He is a captive of the Evil One who has blinded his eyes, dulled his hearing, disabled his ability to think and hardened his heart to the great truths of Christ and the salvation He merited for His own.

Quote
Jeremiah 14:15-16 (ASV) "Therefore thus saith Jehovah concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land: By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them-them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them."

Matthew 23:27-32 (ASV) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."

Matthew 15:13-14 (ASV) "But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."
Only a mighty and sovereign work of God can open this man's eyes to the truth that has been set before him. At present, these precious truths are worthless and incomprehensible. May the Lord take pity upon him as He did Lydia and opened her heart and granted her repentance unto life.

In His grace,
Posted By: Robin The Grip of False Teaching - Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:41 AM
I think this thread has been a very compelling demonstration of how captivating false doctrine can be! Even when confronted with irrefutable proof from God's own infallible word, those who love to have their ears tickled will not give it up - even if it leads straight to hell.

Evangelist, you asked the question, and then completely rejected every answer you received. Whatever led you to ask the question to begin with? Was it a sincere search for knowledge or were you simply picking a fight to defend your favorite ear-tickler?

And why, in any quest to know God better, would you reject His unchanging word to follow your own feelings?

Only a true addict refuses to give up his drug even when he knows it is sure to kill him. TBN is your drug, Evangelist. You take it not only to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad. And when confronted with the frightening prognosis of everlasting torment for those who follow these false teachers, you run back to your drug to feel better, knowing because you asked that it will destroy you.

You're not alone, though. Some of us have been there too. I was a 700 Club "phone counselor" and addicted to what we called "the anointing" for many years. I prophesied, laid hands on the sick (and saw some healed instantly), and cast demons away from people. I was well on my way to becoming the next TBN-style "evangelist," all by the age of seventeen. Were it not for an abusive situation at home that forced me to run away, I could have ended up among them. But it's hard for a homeless teenager to claim "the anointing" when it's obvious to every Charismatic that "God isn't blessing the boy - or he wouldn't be homeless now."

Those circumstances were the blessing of God! He was saving me from becoming another ear-tickling charlatan like those on TBN, believing their own lies and filling their own addiction to fame and following.

Besides: The Son of Man had no place to lay His head (Matthew 8:20) either, but that was no proof that God was against Him. But the TBN followers of today would have rejected Jesus because of His poverty just as the Jews rejected Him, putting Him to death. But praise God, that rejection was all part of a greater plan to purchase our salvation!

And my own rejection by fickle followers of "the anointing" was part of a larger plan to rescue me from becoming just like them.

Glorying in humiliation,
Robin
Posted By: Paul_S Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:47 PM
Evangelist,

The simple question on the Subject Line was asked by me over 2 months ago, in early May:
Quote
... are you willing to say that you are possibly among those who lack knowledge , or have a false understanding about the nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and if shown to be so from the clear and authoritative Word, are you open to correction in this matter?

and you quickly answered:

Quote
Yes , because I have the fruits of the spirts, and I have a meek spirit, and long -suffering with patience.
Shalom


I fear that since you gave that answer you have here publicly demonstrated very little desire to be corrected by the Word of God applied by the Holy Spirit whose fruit you claim to bear. Instead, you have been constantly attempting to defend your own beliefs and those you support, as above, where you boast as if having "millions on his side" is a guarantee that one is speaking the truth. Satan has "millions on his side"--many are on the wide, easy road to destruction, many are following the sensuality of the false prophets who are bringing in destructive heresies, and because of them the way of truth is being blasphemed, and in their greed they are exploiting you with false words--what have you proven?

Are you going to demonstrate true meekness as you publicly vowed and listen to those who are patiently instructing you that you may be established in the truth? Most recently, Robin, under The Grip of False Teaching, is attempting yet again to reach you with the truth. Hear him!
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:30 PM
Quote
jaf said:
evangelist,
The people on the highway are sincerely trying to help you. The people on tbn are 1)trying to rob you of your money.For this is their "god". 2)they being of their father the devil seek to rob you of your very soul. It is indeed sad and tragic that you haven't been able to discern the truth. I have read all that you have posted and all that has been posted in an effort to help you. It appears that you do not have "ears to hear". The Scriptures instruct us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Please,I beseech you to take the counsel of those who've responded to your posts VERY SERIOUSLY. Pray that God would grant you wisdom and discernment. You have not because you ask not. jaf

How are they robbing me when I am freely giving andf supporting with prayers?
It is better to support TBM and the God channel than support these prono stations, hate tv and bad news of the media and etc.
they are broadcasting not for free it cost these minister millions of dollar to even be on the air, and that is because of our blessings.
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:32 PM
Quote
Robin said:
Perhaps we should just believe what we feeeel in spiiiirits, instead of being so intolerant and dogmatic. After all, I don't feeeeel as if God should judge "little lost lambs" so harshly just because their teachings utterly destroy those who hear and accept them. Predators need love too! Can't you feeeeeel that?

I've had enough of this absurdity.

It is not about a feeling it is about doing the will of God.
Go into to the highways and by ways and preach the gospel to every nation, and TBN is just a fruit of that.
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:44 PM
I guess it is God's will to support heretics, because after all they are just preaching the gospel.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

One thing remains absolutely certain, either the gospel that TBN preaches is heretical, or the historical gospel that is preached from sites such as the Highway is heretical.
From your posts I would have to believe that you think the later is true.
Which makes me wonder why you still post here?
Are you trying to evangelize us? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Tom
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:14 AM
Quote
Tom said:
I guess it is God's will to support heretics, because after all they are just preaching the gospel.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

One thing remains absolutely certain, either the gospel that TBN preaches is heretical, or the historical gospel that is preached from sites such as the Highway is heretical.
From your posts I would have to believe that you think the later is true.
Which makes me wonder why you still post here?
Are you trying to evangelize us? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Tom

No, That is not my job here I let somebody else do that witness to you.
I just am giving my witness of what TBN is doing to this planet , and blessing this planet with the gospel.
I say this planet because it has obeyed better as óther christians and going into all the world which is doing, instead of us just witnessing in our own house only, and behind closed doors.
We need not be ashame of the gospel and go into the nations to witness Christ , and salvation.
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:40 PM
Heretic or Hypocrite?

Which are you evangelist? Tom asked you if you were at The Highway to evangelize us? You answered “No, That is not my job here I let somebody else do that witness to you.” However, in the same post you condemn others and say “instead of us just witnessing in our own house only, and behind closed doors. We need not be ashamed of the gospel and go into the nations to witness Christ, and salvation.” A reasonable question for YOU is “Are YOU ashamed of the Gospel?”

In another place you state, “It is not about a feeling it is about doing the will of God. Go into to the highways and by ways and preach the gospel to every nation,” and yet here YOU state, “No, That is not my job here I let somebody else do that witness to you.” Thus, you seem rather hypocritical to say the least, but now let us turn the page to heretical.

Hypocritical Evangelist, you state that you believe TBN is doing the will of God. You believe they are spreading “the Gospel.” Does the Gospel include false prophets (Deut. 13:1-5; Gal. 1:8-9; 2 Pet. 2:1)?

Quote
(1) Jesus is a communist (March 3, 2000, Paul Crouch).
(2) Benny Hinn made outrageous prophecies about TBN. One is rather funny, "People will be raised from the dead watching TBN!” One wonders how many TVs are in graves today?
(3) More on Benny Hinn, the poster child heretic of TBN:

GOD WILL DESTROY THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY (prophecy, 1989),

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The Lord also tells me to tell you, in mid 90s, about '94 or '95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. But He will not destroy it with what many minds have thought Him to be. He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed.
TWO YEARS LEFT – The RAPURE (prophecy, 1990),

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Paul, I can say this -- Are you ready for this? We may have two years before the rapture. . . Can I be blunt with ya? I don't know if we have two years left. . . I'm gonna prove to you from the Word tonight, that we have less than two years.
FIDEL CASTRO WILL DIE IN THE 1990'S (prophecy, 1989),

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The Spirit tells me, Fidel Castro will die in the 90's. Oh my. Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power. And Cuba will be visited of God. I will visit Cuba. Oh. Oh. Holy Spirit do you mean he'll die physically? What do you mean, Holy Spirit? Tell me please. My. Oh. Holy Spirit just said to me, it could be worse than any death you can imagine. There's some question in my spirit on what kind of death the Lord means. I'm not sure. I see him. Uh. I see Cas, I, I see Castro bent over behind bars. I don't know what that means.
Of course, there are other false prophets associated with “The best fraud one can buy,” excuse me TBN, such as: Kenneth Copeland, Marilyn Hickey, Rod Parsley, Jack Van Impe, Morris Cerrulo, Earl Paulk, Reinhard Bonnke, Tommy Tenney, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer, Mark Chironna, Juanita Bynum, Creflo Dollar and many others. Oh, and not forgetting the ‘rising star’ of the Word-Faith movement … Joel Osteen.

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Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:20 AM


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No, That is not my job here I let somebody else do that witness to you.
I just am giving my witness of what TBN is doing to this planet , and blessing this planet with the gospel.
I say this planet because it has obeyed better as óther christians and going into all the world which is doing, instead of us just witnessing in our own house only, and behind closed doors.
We need not be ashame of the gospel and go into the nations to witness Christ , and salvation.

J_Edwards did a great job at replying to you and about the only thing I would like to add to that is;
You seem to be accusing me/us of just witnessing in our own houses and not witnessing in the entire world.
I assume you believe that the Lord told you to say this, because you do not know me or others on this board.

I have to conclude this because you don't know us. But if you are wrong about us (which you are), it would make you a false prophet.
Some of the greatest evangelists this world has ever had were/are Reformed.

Tom
Posted By: evangelist Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:32 AM
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Tom said:


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No, That is not my job here I let somebody else do that witness to you.
I just am giving my witness of what TBN is doing to this planet , and blessing this planet with the gospel.
I say this planet because it has obeyed better as óther christians and going into all the world which is doing, instead of us just witnessing in our own house only, and behind closed doors.
We need not be ashame of the gospel and go into the nations to witness Christ , and salvation.

J_Edwards did a great job at replying to you and about the only thing I would like to add to that is;
You seem to be accusing me/us of just witnessing in our own houses and not witnessing in the entire world.
I assume you believe that the Lord told you to say this, because you do not know me or others on this board.

I have to conclude this because you don't know us. But if you are wrong about us (which you are), it would make you a false prophet.
Some of the greatest evangelists this world has ever had were/are Reformed.

Tom

Then are you on international and nation tv and radio reaching the whole world with your witness, like those men of God are doing on tbn and te GOD Channel????????
Posted By: J_Edwards Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:50 AM
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evangelist said,

Then are you on international and nation tv and radio reaching the whole world with your witness, like those men of God are doing on tbn and te GOD Channel????????
Just because someone has a TV spot does not make them any better than someone who does not. The First Church of Satan has a programs too -- video, podcasts, etc.. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/threaddevil.gif" alt="" />

The apostles turned the world upside down without TV, radio, etc. TV and radio are just communication mediums. God uses many mediums to communicate His Gospel -- even the mouth of an ass. NOTE: To allow a communication medium to become a Golden Calf and worship it is sin.

An honest question to ask of many of these so-called evangelists is if they are even saved? TBN normally does not preach the Gospel, but has done MORE to disseminate a false gospel (Gal. 1:6-11) to the world than anything else. I do not consider large, but false, good.

Last I checked the Internet is International. I do not know how many hits this site receives in a year but it nears or surpasses probably a million. That is a pretty huge audience. However, I would have you to note that if it only reached ONE PERSON, than that is a very huge ministry as what we are discussing is a real life. Every life is precious. Every life is important. While you put a value on multiple numbers, we put a value on every individual life -- "true" life in Christ.

Warning, Warning, Warning: God can be turned off and on: The God channel. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tom Re: It would help if you answered a simple questio - Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:20 AM
Good answer J_Edwards <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
It would seem that evangelist believes that because these false teachers reach millions via TV and radio, then they must be true God honoring evangelists.
As you demonstrated, that reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. I don't have anything against using TV or radio to proclaim the Word per say. But, what he seems to be saying is that the media is more important than the message.
Each one of us as Christians has a part we must do in proclaiming the Gospel, but not every one of us is gifted as a preacher or even an evangelist.
Among other things I would suggest evangelist read 1 Cor. 12.

I for one will not be responding to anymore of his posts, unless I see some indication that he is actually teachable.

Tom
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