Greetings Fred,

Thanks for the reply.

I have a confession to make. I am a 4.9 point Calvinist. I have read widely some of the best Reformed writers such as: Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Flavel, John Piper...(what's with the John thing?...JC Ryle, Thomas Watson, JI Packer, John Stott, Martyn LLoyd-Jones, etc,etc. and love the vision of God presented.

oww...the keyboard at this internet cafe is going out so it is really hard to do caps. please forgive the formatting of what follows.

i wanted to discuss the topic and passages in particular, in a way that forced me to defend the doctrine of conditional perseverance to see if i could do it in a way without compromising on biblical truth. i have a friend who has done that on rare occassions and he says it helps him to think through an issue from all sides. when i read 1 john, john, and most of pauls letters, the doctrine of perseverance comes out very strongly. when i read hebrews, and to a lesser extent 2 peter and jude, i stumble. the argument in hebrews and tone of the epistle is an earnest argument not to turn away from christ. the people warned are given reference points, ie people who are held out as an example abou't the peril of apostasy. these people had been made partakers of various forms of grace, to the extent that the writer says that they were made partakers of the holy spirit, and in another passage that they were sanctified by the blood of christ. if the argument that the people were not real chrstians is true, then it apears that god is either allowing his grace to be resisted, or has purposed to extend powerful expressions of grace to people who are not elect, well beyond common grace. or, if the argument that the warning is not a real possibility, but something used to excite the readers to repentance, then how can a non possibility actualy do that?

perhaps you can give me some wisdom here. john piper preached a great series on hebrews, and his handling of these texts was interesting...

thanks for bearing with me. perhaps what i really need is to ask for prayer rather than start a discussion on these verses. we are all busy, and there are a whole lot of people perishing without christ.

love in christ,

kevin

“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen