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AJC said:
I just don't understand how an Iraneus in the early 100's can speak of the Lord's Supper in a Real Presence sort of way - that really concerns me - does it you?
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> It doesn't bother me at all. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> Why? Because as I mentioned briefly in my first reply, the RCC is well known for their twisting statements of the ECF so that they support their heresies. Even John Calvin spoke of the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, but what he meant by that was antithetical to what the RCC teaches. Thus, and admittedly, it's been many years since I've read Iraneaus' writings, but when he mentions "Real Presence", it is expedient that one come to understand what he meant (defined) by that term from not only the immediate context where the phrase is found but also from his other writings on the subject. The RCC likes to refer to Augustine's use of the same phrase in the same way as they also do for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. In both cases, they wrest Augustine's words out of context.

For an excellent rebuttal of the RCC teaching on the "Real Presence" see William Webster's article here: The Eucharist. Let me also commend to you another book written by Keith Mathison, Given For You, which is basically a historical survey and development of the doctrine of the Lord's Supper with special focus upon "Real Presence". You might come to realize that even some of the Reformers erred on this subject, e.g., Calvin not going far enough away from Rome and Zwingli going too far the other way. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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AJC asks:
Have you ever read the writings of the ECF's? Have you ever read the arguments on the other side of the debate or neutral sources if they exist - I think its only fair that we research the other side to get a more balanced perspective - the sources you gave me are 100% reformed which will just verify what I already know (although I am interested in their takes on Sola Scriptures - I just wished it could have been proven in less than 3 volumes in the case of Webster).
Yes, I have read quite a bit of the writings of the ECFs, albeit as I mentioned already, it has been quite a number of years since. And yes, I have also read various other sources on both sides, although I doubt there are many if any that have been "neutral". Lastly, the reason for the 3 volumes of Sola Scriptura by David King and William Webster is I think that they wanted to leave no stone unturned. They so completely annihilate the RCC position and arguments that one would have to conlude the matter has been finally settled. You either have to agree with them or totally ignore the ton of evidence they provide for the defense of the biblical, Protestant position.

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AJC then writes:
But God did sanction the formation of early churches, right? - I guess we have to give the early church some credit for perserving the written word,

At what point do you believe the early church completelty fell away???
Yes, God not only "sanctioned" but ordained the establishment of the early churches via the direct work of the Holy Spirit as the Lord Christ said He would. Let us never forget, that the "early churches" are not those of Iraneaus, Justin Martyr, et concludepreservingcompletelyal, but rather those in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, etc. And as I also mentioned before, even in those foundational churches, heresy was present and needed to be dealt with. (cf. also Rev. 2 & 3) So, is it so surprising that after the passing of the Apostles, who doubtless had a tremendous and positive influence over those churches, that the Evil One would continue to attack the church with all manner of heresy? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> That is why ALL the writings of men are to be scrutinized by Scripture..... ah... SOLA SCRIPTURA is an indispensable doctrine and without which it is impossible to come to the truth. (John 8:31, 21; 16:13; 17:17)

In His grace,

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simul iustus et peccator

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