The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Extent of God's Love

I'm beginning a new topic to keep things separate from a previous discussion.
Johan,

I didn’t see anything in the WCF that I didn’t agree with concerning the subject of God’s love or redemption. I am going to try to say what I mean by God’s “objective love” for ALL men.

First some prefatory statements of what I believe: (all verses NASB)
1) Christ death is efficient for the elect alone; His death
did not purchase salvation for the reprobate but it was
sufficient for them
2) God hates some and chooses others to salvation
3) Without God’s regenerating work brought about by the Holy
Spirit, we cannot accept Christ because we cannot know Him
nor can we know our own depravity.
4) The regenerating work of the Spirit is given to the elect
and them alone, His work is necessary for belief, not that
we believe then receive the Spirit.

Verses that speak of Christ dying only for the elect:

John 10:15 I lay down My life for the sheep
John 15:13 Christ laid down His life for His friends
(paraphrased)
John 17 His priestly prayer for the elect
Eph. 5:25-27 Gave His life for the church
These are true but they don't mean that His death was not sufficieant

What I am describing is the objective love of God to ALL men, however, still not speaking of unlimited redemption, just God’s manifestation of His love for all.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared

These two verses are used by the Arminians to show that salvation is dependent on our act of believing, that Christ died for everyone, and this is proof that He died for all. I deny this completely!

Now where I differ with the reformed view, is that I believe that Christ’s death was a manifestation of God’s love and goodwill to ALL men.

Now as for Luke 2:14, almost all the translators say the verse should be read, peace among men of whom God is pleased.

I believe the KJV is the better translation, where it reads “goodwill to men”. He sent His Son as a manifestation of His goodwill toward all men, not just the elect. We don’t need to manipulate the words as to what the scripture plainly says to defend our doctrine of election.

Some possible arguments to the verses above might be: all men meaning all nations, or as said above, all God favors, however, my understanding is that it is a demonstration of His love to all, meaning everyone. This free gift of Jesus Christ is offered to all, elect and non-elect, notice it is offered, not it is applied. Sadly for the unregenerate who have had Christ offered, all those nations where the gospel and Christ have been revealed, their suffering Hell’s torments will be even harsher than those who never heard of Christ. Luke 12:48 who has been given much shall much be required;….. The world basks in their luxury like the rich man did in comparison to Lazarus not realizing that because Christ, His word and the truth are at our fingertips, found on computers, tvs and in books, that we will be under a stricter judgment.

Now, if John 3:16, Titus 3:4 and Luke 2:14 are not speaking of all mankind, then the verses below are a lie.

Rom. 10:8-13 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him;13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD will be saved.”

Why? Paul is offering Christ to the elect and the non elect. Now just because it is already known that only the elect will be saved, that doesn’t nullify the extent of the offer. If it is offered, it has to be available or it becomes a false offer, basically a lie and contrary to whom God is.

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Here we have the same offer made to all by the Holy Spirit and the church.

With the above verse in mind, it also means that whenever we offer the gospel, as the body of Christ, we are lying if Christ isn’t really available to all. I believe He is available, and so I present Him as available to both believers and non-believers alike, if I didn’t believe that, I would be uncomfortable offering the gospel message.

Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.”

In this verse Paul and Silas are telling the jailer what to do to be saved. If he isn’t one of the elect, and Christ isn’t available, then they are also basically lying to him, because if he believed, he would still be lost.

Why do I say all this, I’m trying to point out that Christ’s sacrifice was a “presentation” of God’s love to the whole world. It was sufficient payment for the entire world’s sin; although it was only efficient to those whom God chose to apply it to. He opens their eyes in order to accept it through the Holy Spirit.

Jn. 6:44 “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I realize that we can get into word gymnastics to support opposing views, but my question is, where does this view contradict with who God is? Or how does it contradict the doctrine of limited atonement? Or does it deny God’s justice? This very plainly shows God as a God of Love, as He is perfect in all His attributes.

This view does not deny any reformation doctrines that I’m aware of. It comes down to whether Christ is a manifestation of God’s love to all or just to the elect. The reason I say His love, because if Christ isn’t a manifestation of Love, then He isn’t God because God is love.

There is nothing to lose because of this view; because I believe it is true to scripture, yet everything to gain.

Let me end with this, when we offer the gospel to someone and tell them that if they believe they will be saved, yet we really believe that Christ can only save the elect, then we aren’t being completely honest with the individuals we are speaking to. Yes, it is true that if a person believes they will be saved, but “what if” an unregenerate person believed (I know, impossible, but only to make my point), then Christ is not really offered and the person never did have the opportunity to be saved even if they did believe. For me, I would have a hard time doing God’s work when I believed I wasn’t being truthful in my presentation, it becomes a contradiction.