There are a number of passages in the Bible that are “problematic” for the Reformed understanding of the perseverance of the saints. The problem seems to be theological rather than exegetical. For example, there are passages that seem to teach perseverance, and there are passages that seem to teach conditional perseverance. For those that hold to perseverance, the usual approach for maintaining a belief in perseverance is to interpret the conditional perseverance passages as referring to “almost believers,” or those who have been blessed to sit under the teaching of the gospel and who remain unconverted. For those that hold to conditional perseverance, the usual approach is to interpret the perseverance passages as “implying” conditionality. (Not an exhaustive list of approaches).
I have listed some of the major “conditional perseverance” passages below. Does anyone want to discuss these passages?
I am a missionary working in SE Asia, and internet time is expensive so responses will not on a daily basis. But responses to any posts will be (Lord willing) thoughtful and respectful. I am new to this website, having recently seen a link from Phil Johnson’s bookmarks.
I trust the spirit of the discussion will be a hunger to know the truth, an earnest desire to love God with all of our mind, and would follow the guidelines that Paul gave to Timothy about discussions on Internet sites:
2 Timothy 2:24-25 NASB The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, (25) with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth
A brother in Christ,
Kevin
Matthew 24:14 NASB "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations [peoples], and then the end will come.
Quo semel est imbuta, recens servabit odorem testa diu.
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“Conditional Perseverance” Passages
Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. (13) But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Hebrews 6:4-8 NASB For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (7) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; (8) but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews 10:19-31 NASB Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, (20) by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, (21) and since we have a great priest over the house of God, (22) let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (23) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; (24) and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, (25) not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (26) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (28) Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Matthew 24:10-13 NASB "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. (11) "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. (12) "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. (13) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matthew 24:45-51 NASB "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? (46) "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. (47) "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. (48) ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' (49) and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; (50) the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, (51) and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 8:13 NASB "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Romans 8:12-13 NASB So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- (13) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 NASB Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. (25) Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. (26) Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; (27) but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10:12 NASB Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
Galatians 5:3-4 NASB And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. (4) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Colossians 1:21-23 NASB And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, (22) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- (23) if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 NASB This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, (19) keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. (20) Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NASB But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, (2) by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, (3) men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
2 Timothy 4:9-10 NASB Make every effort to come to me soon; (10) for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
2 Peter 2:1 NASB But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:20-22 NASB For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 3:14-18 NASB Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, (15) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, (16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, (18) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen
Greetings and welcome to the Highway. Phil Johnson is one of my bosses, so I find it nice that his bookmarks are making an impact out there in cyberworld.
Periodically, from time to time, individuals log on to this page pointing us to supposed Bible verses that they believe refute the doctrines of Grace. Your challenge is not new here. In fact, this subject is a horse that has been so beaten that the carcass is unrecognizable.
I will be happy to discuss these passages with you, as well as others who frequent here. I would personally suggest that you point to the one verse or set of verses that you think is absolutely unanswerable by the Reformed faith, and with out a doubt affirms conditional perseverance.
Also, I have discovered that the one challenging the biblical doctrines of Grace often cites his pet proof texts out of context. In other words, there is no application of sound exegesis brought to the passages in question so as to discover what the author was truly saying. So I hope that if some discussion does occur, that there will be the application of sound Bible study methodology.
Further, let me ask you this: are you familiar with what has already be written on this subject by the defenders of Reformed soteriology? Often times, the critics of Calvinism write as if they exist in an historic vacuum. John Gill, for instance, has written a massive exegetical treatise that is a rebuttal to a book by an Arminian pastor in his day that provide sound answers to the passages you raise as proof texts. In fact, you can look at it on line here:The Cause of God and Truth What I mean to say is that the literature is vast and well written and many of us here are quite familiar with it and the arguments of those who would desire to contradict us. My hope is that your inquiry has taken that into consideration and that you are not under the impression that we are ignorant of the various arguments against the five points, particularly the perseverance of the saints.
Then lastly, I think there are some fundamental presuppositions that need to be laid out in the open. That being that those who hold the conditional security/perseverance of the saints as a belief, normally have as a starting point the belief in libertarian free-will. More times than nought, it is taken as a never questioned assumption and is articulated in one form or another by its proponents. It is my opinion that this is a key issue to address first before we can even begin wading through the various passages that supposedly teach conditional perseverance. How serious do you believe sin has affected men? is a good question to ask. I can tell you at this point that I believe the Bible clearly teaches that sin has so impacted man that his will, emotions, thinking, his entire being, has been enslaved to sin. That he can do nothing pleasing to God, including believing upon the gospel by faith, UNLESS, the Lord first does a regenerative work in man's heart. When the Lord does that work, it will be effective. In other words, it will not fail, nor can the person so regenerated choose to reject that work initially, or walk away from it at some future time. Thus, the one who had no ability to gain salvation to begin with, has no ability to forfeit salvation. I can provide passages to support my core presuppositions if you so wish to see them.
At any rate, I hope I wasn't put offish with my post, but I do hope you see, at the same time, the need to address these core issues that will define any future discussion.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Most if not all your questionable verses have actually already been answered. Please see the articles here so you may make the best use of your limited on-line time:
I have a confession to make. I am a 4.9 point Calvinist. I have read widely some of the best Reformed writers such as: Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Flavel, John Piper...(what's with the John thing?...JC Ryle, Thomas Watson, JI Packer, John Stott, Martyn LLoyd-Jones, etc,etc. and love the vision of God presented.
oww...the keyboard at this internet cafe is going out so it is really hard to do caps. please forgive the formatting of what follows.
i wanted to discuss the topic and passages in particular, in a way that forced me to defend the doctrine of conditional perseverance to see if i could do it in a way without compromising on biblical truth. i have a friend who has done that on rare occassions and he says it helps him to think through an issue from all sides. when i read 1 john, john, and most of pauls letters, the doctrine of perseverance comes out very strongly. when i read hebrews, and to a lesser extent 2 peter and jude, i stumble. the argument in hebrews and tone of the epistle is an earnest argument not to turn away from christ. the people warned are given reference points, ie people who are held out as an example abou't the peril of apostasy. these people had been made partakers of various forms of grace, to the extent that the writer says that they were made partakers of the holy spirit, and in another passage that they were sanctified by the blood of christ. if the argument that the people were not real chrstians is true, then it apears that god is either allowing his grace to be resisted, or has purposed to extend powerful expressions of grace to people who are not elect, well beyond common grace. or, if the argument that the warning is not a real possibility, but something used to excite the readers to repentance, then how can a non possibility actualy do that?
perhaps you can give me some wisdom here. john piper preached a great series on hebrews, and his handling of these texts was interesting...
thanks for bearing with me. perhaps what i really need is to ask for prayer rather than start a discussion on these verses. we are all busy, and there are a whole lot of people perishing without christ.
love in christ,
kevin
“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen
Scripture speaks of four types of people in the world. The four types can be visualized as being a 2x2 matrix where on one side they are listed as either a believer or an unbeliever and on the other side either knowing the truth or not knowing the truth (deceived). Thus, the four types can be characterized as either 1) A believer who knows the truth 2) A believer who does not know the truth 3) An unbeliever who knows the truth (about his spiritual condition) 4) An unbeliever who does not know the truth (about his spiritual condition).
Examples: Those in the first category are spiritually mature Christians, aka perfected saints. Those in the second category are spiritually immature Christians, aka little children. Those in the third category are those who reject God (atheists). Those in the fourth catagory are all others.
Theologians and religious leaders don't understand how believers are perfected or even what it means, because they were/are either category 2 or category 4 themselves, but the answer was always there in Scripture (James 1:2-4).
"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance. Perserverance must finish it's work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." NIV
Spiritual maturity is not becoming more holy and it is not attained by avoidance of sin. Spiritual maturity is the receiving of wisdom and understanding of the Word of God, is a "reward" for perseverance through trials of our faith and attained by discernment through the teaching of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.
The MacArthur Study Bible on page 1924 states, "Therefore, James can be reliably dated ca. A.D. 44-49, making it the earliest written book of the NT canon." Thus, this doctrine of perfection (how we are made spiritually mature) was the first written statement of the Christian Church.
We are made spiritually mature (perfected) by enduring trials of our faith or through perseverance. A believer can decide to not endure the trial of his faith (not perservere), but will then stifle his own spiritual maturity. This is what was happening to the Laodicians leading to their condemnation by Christ (Rev. 3:14-22) and I hope explains "conditional perseverance."
Greetings back to you Kev, Sorry for the delay, I didn't get a notice that you had responded to this thread and I overlooked it. Hopefully that is now remedied.
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I have a confession to make. I am a 4.9 point Calvinist. I have read widely some of the best Reformed writers such as: Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Flavel, John Piper...(what's with the John thing?...JC Ryle, Thomas Watson, JI Packer, John Stott, Martyn LLoyd-Jones, etc,etc. and love the vision of God presented.
(Fred) Well, I am glad to know that you are alert to the various authors and the relevant material. That helps in these discussions.
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when i read hebrews, and to a lesser extent 2 peter and jude, i stumble. the argument in hebrews and tone of the epistle is an earnest argument not to turn away from christ.
(Fred) As to Hebrews, I believe the difficulty is improved upon when one takes into consideration the point of Hebrews. That being, the author is arguing for a better covenant against an old, obsolete, done away with covenant. Thus, if the person, due to persecution by his Jewish community, was to attempt to return to that old, obsolete covenant, he will be going back to a system that God is no longer working through. When I taught through the doctrines of grace, I dealt with the key objection passages against each point. Obviously, with perseverance of the saints, I dealt with Hebrews 6, and I made a couple of relevant observations. First, The condition that causes the falling away is not stated in the passage. The writer does not state what exactly caused these individuals to fall away. Nor is it clear as to what brought them to this position, or how they arrived at falling away. Is it a specific sin that brings them to falling away? Was it a willful, disobedient act? The passage does not answer why they fell away. Secondly, the author moves from addressing the Hebrews personally "you," "us," and "we" to speaking in generalities "those" and "they." That is significant, because none of the readers are being specifically warned. The author is not saying, "you believers are falling away, or some of you have fallen away;" but he speaks impersonally. More of a hypothetical falling away, rather than one that is real. Then third, it is important to read further into Hebrews 6. Once the scenerio of 6:4-6 is presented to the Hebrews as a warning, the author writes, but, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner, (6:9). It appears as though that he is confident that the Hebrew believers were not in danger of leaving their faith.
Moving to Jude and 2 Peter, all I can quickly say is that the warning passages of these two books are addressed to believers to beware of individuals who are not a part of the church. For instance, in Jude 4, it states that we should be on the look out for men who have crept in unnoticed; serial soul killers who have stealthily slipped into a congregation. Jude's warning is not to tell his readers that they are in danger of loosing their salvation if they mess up, but to warn them about the possibility of false teachers coming into Church to prey on the people. I would argue that Peter's words are of a similar fashion. In fact, Jude even gives words of confident assurance to his readers when he points them back to him who is able (has the power/ability) to keep them from stumbling (v.24).
When it comes to warning passages in the Bible, I think we need to look at them as passages that spur on the true believers and weed out those who are not part of God's family. Like I argued under the "irresistible grace" thread, the Bible presents a regenerating grace that is effective in its ability to impart grace, as well as keep the saved until eternity. What would be God's purpose in going to the extent of giving his son to pay the penalty for a person's sin, only to leave the application and effectiveness of that atoning work up to the fickle sinner to decide?
I hope that helps to give you something to think about.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
