The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum ...The people miscalled Antinomians ?

Wes, 1 John 2:3-5 is not talking about a so-called moral law but Gods commandments.Read the whole chapter .

Wes,

Thanks for the article by Murray. I haven’t time to comment on that just now, but I would like to make some brief comments on what you say above.

“We do not keep the Law to be saved” you say, as though we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law, yet for sanctification the law is a rule of life.

However the very verses which teach us that we are not justified by the law also demonstrate that we are no longer under it in an ongoing state. We are dead to the law, meaning not just for the purpose of justification but for sanctification – we are dead to it. We are married to another, Christ, and therefore to go back to our old husband, the law, would be to commit spiritual adultery – to break the very law you claim we are bound to! See Romans 7.

Galatians makes it very clear that through the law (the Ten Commandments essentially) we are dead to the law, that we might live unto God. See Gal 2:19-21. Christ is now our life. That is ongoing, not merely for justification, but sanctification. Paul continues the argument in chapter 3, where he says:

“Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”. This is the ongoing walk of the believer which is being referred to. The walk which is in the Spirit by faith. This is emphasised in verses 10-12:

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

Here ongoing walk is shown. Either under the law, which is not of faith, or under grace in which we walk by faith – the just shall live by faith. What applies for justification applies for sanctification too – if we are delivered from the law we remain delivered from it. If we began in the Spirit, then we continue in the Spirit – we are not to be entangled again with the yoke of bondage – the law. Galatians 5:1.


You go on to say “But rather, "by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." (I John 2:3-5)”

Absolutely we do keep Christ’s commandments, and we keep His word. The word “Keep” here in the Greek fundamentally means to keep in our minds, to treasure, to store up, to lay hold of, not to forget. Obviously if so doing it will lead to obedience to Christ’s words, but obedience is the consequence of such keeping whereas ‘keep’ itself is the treasuring up, the remembrance, the belief of these words.

Well what are these commandments, these words of Christ? It has been said by previous posters here that as they are Christ’s then they are the same as the Father’s, and by implication must be those commandments given in the law. Oh, what a tenuous connection! Of course Christ’s commandments are one with the Father’s but to say that these here refer to the law is reading in more than is in the text, and is to ignore clear teaching about the law elsewhere in the New Testament.

If they refer to the law then we have to conclude that they mean the whole law, as the whole law was commanded by God. God commanded a priesthood to be set up, a tabernacle, sacrifices to be made, He commanded dietary laws, laws to do with uncleanness and so on and so forth. All of these were God’s commandments. Does John mean those commandments? The Law of Moses?

Oh no, you might say, the “ceremonial” and “judicial” parts of the law have clearly been abrogated - we aren’t expected to keep those commandments anymore, just the “moral law”. Well, what verses tell us that we are no longer under the “ceremonial” or “judicial” law? The very same verses that tell us that we are delivered from the law as a whole. We are dead to it, not under it, delivered from it - the whole of the law. You can’t chop it up into sections, throw some bits away, and keep others. The Bible doesn’t do that, and nor should we. “Ah!” some might answer, “But God makes a difference, because He wrote the Ten Commandments on tablets of stone”. Yes, I answer, He did, as the tablets of testimony of the whole law, which was put out of sight in the Ark of the Covenant, under the mercy seat, which is typical of its being taken out of the way by Christ at the cross, when he nailed the handwriting of ordinances contained in commandments to His cross and took it out of the way. What does God say to us now regarding the law written on stone?

“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”
2 Corinthians 3:6-11

The Ten Commandments were engraven on stone, are called here the ‘ministration of death’, the ‘ministration of condemnation’ and are ‘done away’ with. The believer is not under that Old Covenant, but the New, not of the letter which killeth, but of the spirit which giveth life, the ‘ministration of righteousness’. (One reason I was very careful in earlier posts to show that what is eternal is the Righteousness of God, not the "moral law", is to show that though the believer is not under law in any way, yet he does have the righteousness of God, through the Gospel. But that isn't the same as saying that he continues to be bound by the Ten Commandments - he is delivered from the law, from that which was engraven on stone!)

So it is very clear that the commandments, the ‘words’ which we are told to ‘keep’ in 1 John do not refer to the law, be it “ceremonial”, “judicial” or “moral”, as we are not under the Old Covenant but the New, so the commandments of the Old Covenant, though from God, don’t apply to the believer who has been lawfully delivered from under the law, by the body of Christ – He is dead to it, but risen in Christ to walk in a new and living way, by the Spirit, by faith, for the just shall live by faith. In Christ the believer is ‘just’, he is a ‘righteous’ man, for His sins have been taken away at the cross (though he still has the flesh, still sins, yet the flesh is reckoned crucified with Christ), and as 1 Timothy 1 tells us, the law was NOT made for a righteous man. For unbelievers, yes, but not for believers.

What are these commandments in 1 John then? Well, 1 John tells us:

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
1 John 3:23

We also read in the Gospel of John such things as:

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:40-50

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63

“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
John 13:34-35

Such commandments are also mentioned in John 15:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

So in summary, at the heart of Christ’s words, His ‘commandments’ are “That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment”.

In other words Faith and Love are commanded in the Gospel, but not only commanded - given. Both of these are fruits of the Spirit, given to believers under the Gospel, which fulfil all the law’s demands, but both of which fruits the law never gave. We are not bound to the law, but we do walk in the righteousness of God, in the Gospel of Christ, in the ‘new commandment’ which Christ gave us “That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another”. And this commandment will be fulfilled in true believers because it is how the world can see that we are true, because we love one another.

In God's Grace,
Ian

Thanks Mark. Yes, Christians do live by faith, not by the law. Unfortunately it is natural to all men to want to 'know what to do'. It seems much easier to just have a written list of commandments which are followed in all circumstances, than to walk by faith, looking unto Christ and seeking God's guidance on a daily basis, in a real, living, way. This is why many turn to the law as a rule of life, and try to teach others so. But the Gospel is otherwise - it is about faith, and the New Testament is very clear on the distinction between law and gospel and the believer's lawful deliverance from the law by the death of Christ. The law has had its penalty paid in full and we owe no more debt to it - we are dead to it. We are risen in Christ, and walk in the Spirit, by faith. A new and living way.

Oh the wonders of God's grace!

Sure sounds like Charismania to me, sir! Contrary to all your strawman arguments and false accusations, the writers of the WCF and all of us here, at least 99.99% of us, believe in Justification by Faith Alone but not by a faith that is alone. We believe that a believer walks by faith and not by sight. But we also believe that Jesus Christ has taught us the truth and that you err when you contradict His perspicuous teachings.

Therefore, could you kindly exegete 3 specific passages for us. Many of us are Greek savvy, so feel free to extrapolate in that language if you so desire and if you feel it will make your case, but take into consideration that the majority aren't schooled in the original languages as you probably are. Here are the passages that I would have you exegete:

John 14:15 (ASV) "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. . . . 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him."


John 15:9-10 (ASV) "Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."


1 John 5:3 (ASV) "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Thank you!

Pilgrim, it is anything but Charismania, and anyone that knows me would testify that I am anything but a Charismatic!

But my rejection of the charismatic movement does not cause me go too far the other way and effectively reject the work of the Holy Spirit. We walk in the Spirit, by faith. Faith is not dead but produces works, but these works are not the works of the law, but the works of faith.

Now, as to the verses you mention - have I not touched upon them in my previous post? I have shown how the commandments mentioned are not those in the law, and the principle by which we walk is not after law but after faith. Primarily Christ's commandments respect belief in Him (faith) and love. That could certainly be regarded as a fulfillment of the law as love indeed fulfils the law, but it isn't the law which we are under, which we are bound to, or yoke to, which we try to keep.

I am happy to examine these verses in more detail if you wish, but I repeat, have I not already touched on them?

Yes, you have touched on them and I find your "touching" wanting.

Therefore I have asked you to exegete those texts. I'm assuming you do know how to do that, yes? And again, do feel free to use the Greek, if you think it will make your case. I am also looking forward to your reply to Wes, re: John Murray's article.

In His Grace,

Ian sounds no way "charismatic" Pilgrim . I could say Murrays article is "legalistic" , but I dont

When I have a little time I hope do both.

But, I ask you, why is it that when Bookmark posted Gadsby's letter that you refused to answer it in any detail, yet you seem to expect me to have to answer every point, exegete texts in sufficient detail to satify your understanding, and reply to a much longer article by Murray than Gadby's?

As with many who insist on the law as 'binding' on believers you seem keen to put heavier burdens on others than you yourself are willing to take.

Ian, I dont believe anyone could easily answer Gadsby.(I have heard a rumour that it was challenged in print 196 years ago,but I have yet to see it). At least Pilgrim is "addressing" the issue- after a fashion

Mark,
I swallowed the same error Mr Potts is teaching here years ago for lack of available sound teaching. You cannot read Psalm 119 and accept his conclusion. Galatians speaks of the Judizers who were saying that you must become a Jew to become a Christian and be circumcised etc. Paul is not speaking of forgetting the commandments there! I am praying for you Mark, that you will not be deceived by this incorrect handling of God's Word, even denying the Lord's own words.

Susan,
I am very aware of the teaching of John Murray, Lloyd Jones, and many other Reformed writers over the position of law. I haven't come to my understanding of Law and Grace through any lack of teaching.

Nevertheless these writers have got it wrong, and it is not I, Mark, Gadsby, Huntington, Warburton, Philpott, Martin Luther, or several others who teach what I do that are handling the word of God wrongly.

I have presented many scriptures and points in my posts above. Rather than just dismissing them, perhaps yourself, Pilgrim or Wes, could go through all the points, and Gadby's points one by one and show clearly from the scripture how we are wrong?

I think you can most certainly read Psalm 119 and accept our conclusions BTW.

Dr James Denney writes in his book :The death of Christ;"St.Paul nowhere draws any distinction in the law between ceremonial and moral;the law for him is one,and it is the law of God"

This is what I am thinking too.

Luther says in his commentary on Galatians that Paul and every Christian is dead to the WHOLE law. He says :" Wherefore when papists understand that the ceremonial law only is abolished,understand though,that Paul and every Christian is dead to the whole law,and yet the the whole remaineth"

Btw, Mr Potts is only expounding on Gadsby.

There is a lot here for all of us to think about IMHO.

I am just learning......a beggar at the table.

Yes, I thoroughly recommend Luther's commentary on Galatians. The edition published by James Clarke publishers, edited by Philip S. Watson is the best, and has the full introduction which is very clear about the difference's between Christ's righteousness and the righteousness of the law - they aren't the same thing.

Ian

I have the James Clarke one though I have not read it yet.

Like all commentaries, I use them when I get stuck in Scripture and just dip into them.The introduction looks interesting....

Thanks for your prayers Susan .That is most kind