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Tom,

"Love is the fulfilling of the law" ( Rom 13:10 ), and the fulfilling of the law is the sure test of love. "The commandment is this," namely, love, in which all God's other commandments are summed up.

As love and truth go hand in hand ( 2Jo 1:3, 4 ), John also writes that its needful to give warning against teachers of untruth. For--giving the reason why he dwelt on truth and on love, which manifests itself in keeping God's commandments ( 2Jo 1:6 ).


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#10544 Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:04 PM
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Dear Ian:

You haven't answered my question, depsite your many words, or have you? Lets look at what I asked you and what you responded.

What I asked you was this:

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What makes you think that anyone here, or the Westminster Divines, or Owen, or Edwards, etc., is "fullfilling a righteous walk, by the Law" rather than by faith? What makes you think that you are "yoked to Christ" and we are not? What makes you so sure that we are not "led by the Spirit" and you are?

Part of your response to my question was simply to reassert to us that you have greater wisdom and understanding, given by God's grace, of course, than men such as Owen, Edwards, Luther, Hodge etc, as you say in the following quote:

Quote
I have read many, many writers on these matters. Lloyd Jones, Owen, Trail, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Hodge, Ryle, etc etc. I am not trapped on some GS Strict Baptist tramline. But by God's grace I have been shown the flaws in the understanding and exegesia regarding Law and Grace of such men as those listed above, whosoever they may be.

So it seems that you believe that God has shown you something of great import that all these godly and faithful men of the faith missed somehow, probably, in your mind at least, because they, unlike you, were not sufficiently taught by the Spirit, and "led of the Spirit".

That belief would of course indicate that you have been given, from God of course, greater wisdom and insight into these things than the greatest men of the faith in the history of the church since apostolic times. Correct?

That would mean then that you are superior in wisdom and understanding than the most emminent men in the history of the church wouldn't it, Ian? Pretty thin air up there you're breathing isn't it? Hard to think straight when you don't get enough oxygen (or humility) to your axons and dendrites, Ian.

And, not only that, but you have been given this wisdom in an area which you have told me you believe to be critical to saving faith. That is to say, if I, or these other deceived men persist(ed) in our false belief on this subject we will ultimately be lost. Well, perhaps you're correct and we're all wrong, but I don't think so.

The following quote from John Owen's "Justification by Faith", The Works of John Owen, Vol 5, page 194, makes a lot more sense to me than your contradictory, confused, eisogetical error ever will:


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Upon this complete justification[color:"FF0000"]The law is not abolished, but established, by faith. It is neither abrogated nor dispensed withal by such and interpretation as should take off its obligationin any thing that it requires, nor in the degree and manner it requires it.[/color] Nor is it possible it should be so;
for it is nothing but the rule of that obedience which the nature of God and man makes necessary from the one to the other. And that is an Antinominan of the worst sort, and most derogotory unto the law of God, which affirm it to be divested of it's power to oblige perfect obedience, so as that what is not so shall (as it were in despite of the law) be accepted as if it were so, unto the end for which the law requires it. There is no medium, but that either the law is utterly abolished, and so there is no sin, for where there is no law there is no transgression, or it must be allowed to require the same obedience that it did at its first institution, and unto the same degree. Neither is it in the power of any man living to keep his conscience from judging and condemning that, whatever it be, wherein he is convinced that he comes short of the
perfection of the law.

You, in an acknowledgement that perhaps I may have correctly interpreted some of my experience, state the following:

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Your experiences from the past in a dispensational church, probably was real Antinomianism Gerry.

Well I appreciate your approval of my assesment, sir, and I note that therein you admit that there is such a thing as "real Antinominism". So at least there is such a thing, according to you?

Finally, I close with an example, again of your confusion, pointed out to you already, in the hopes that you might be enabled to see your error.

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"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
Galatians 2:19-21

Ian, please read that last verse very carefully, It says: "If righteousness COME BY THE LAW, then Christ is dead in vain".

That means that we don't earn our righteousness by the Law, before, or after, faith in Christ. Thats what I, and all these gracious men believed and taught.

To find value and beauty and instruction in the Law, Ian, after coming to Christ alone for salvation is not, as you believe, and have been taught, to deny Christ. Not that there are not those that do so. To be sure there are, and many no doubt.

I close with a verse from John's first epistle, written late in his life primarily to warn the faithful of the many heresies that had crept into the church:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is lawlessnes" 1Jn3:4

You will no doubt object to the translation, it not being the KJV, however, as Philpot was want to do on many occasions, I point out the marginal reading of : "the transgression of the Law" is actually "lawlessness", which is the more literal translation as the origial
is simply "anomia" from the greek, noun form, "a" or "without" + "nomia" or "Law", or "lawlessness", to yield: "Sin is lawlessness".

Thus, Ian, what you are advocating, lawlessness, is nothing other than sin, for the two are made equivalent here by the Apostle John.

In Him,

Gerry

Last edited by acts2027; Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:10 PM.
#10545 Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:30 PM
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Carol said:
Amen Ian. Thanks for all your informative posts. Such a help to me.

In him,
Carol

Yes and a hindrance to those who truly wish to live a Godly Life. I suggest you read a better man who truly knew what he spoke of: THE PERPETUITY OF THE LAW OF GOD. Charles H. Spurgeon


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Which backs up what I said even more. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tom

#10547 Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:57 AM
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acts2027 said:
You haven't answered my question, depsite your many words, or have you?
I have Gerry. “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal 5:18.

Your replies here give no answer to that, merely the following slurs:-

Quote
Quote
What makes you think that anyone here, or the Westminster Divines, or Owen, or Edwards, etc., is "fullfilling a righteous walk, by the Law" rather than by faith? What makes you think that you are "yoked to Christ" and we are not? What makes you so sure that we are not "led by the Spirit" and you are?

Part of your response to my question was simply to reassert to us that you have greater wisdom and understanding, given by God's grace, of course, than men such as Owen, Edwards, Luther, Hodge etc, as you say in the following quote:

Quote
I have read many, many writers on these matters. Lloyd Jones, Owen, Trail, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Hodge, Ryle, etc etc. I am not trapped on some GS Strict Baptist tramline. But by God's grace I have been shown the flaws in the understanding and exegesia regarding Law and Grace of such men as those listed above, whosoever they may be.

So it seems that you believe that God has shown you something of great import that all these godly and faithful men of the faith missed somehow, probably, in your mind at least, because they, unlike you, were not sufficiently taught by the Spirit, and "led of the Spirit".
This is an emotive argument, but quite a fallacious one Gerry.

Despite all your criticism here that for me to disagree with some of these men (not Luther by the way) over their teaching about the law is to demonstrate some attitude of pride, that is simply not true. As taught of God I speak what I know. If that means I ‘differ’ from some lauded names in the church then so be it. It also means I speak as one with many other names, which though not held in such great esteem by yourself and others who follow Moses, nevertheless were men greatly used of God, Huntington, Philpot, Warburton, Kershaw, Toplady, Luther and Gadsby for instance. You disagree with these gracious men.

I cannot allow the teaching or influence of men to turn me from the Spirit’s leading. Of couse I walk in all humility before God, I am acutely aware that I like all men can be deceived; I recognise that God sends men into the church with gifts to teach us, and I am thankful to God for them as far as they preach the truth, but ultimately we test what ALL these men say by two things – the word of God, and the witness of the Holy Spirit. If something they teach differs with those two witnesses then we must reject that teaching. Not quickly or rashly, but with much prayer and trembling, rather fearing God than man. There is no pride in that. In fact it is one of the very principles that the Reformation was started on isn’t it? Sola scriptura.

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. “
1 John 2:27

“And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Galatians 2:4-6

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And, not only that, but you have been given this wisdom in an area which you have told me you believe to be critical to saving faith. That is to say, if I, or these other deceived men persist(ed) in our false belief on this subject we will ultimately be lost. Well, perhaps you're correct and we're all wrong, but I don't think so.
Gerry this is nonsense. I never said that rejecting this error is critical to saving faith. Indeed the Galatians were bewitched, but Paul wrote to them as believers. Nevertheless he recognised the seriousness of their error of mixing law and grace, wrote his strongest epistle to them, and warned of the grave consequences of doing so.

My point to you Gerry, written in a private PM with loving concern, is that this truth is of fundamental importance – not fundamental to saving faith, but certainly with regards to the Christian walk. You recognise that, otherwise you wouldn’t attack me so strongly, so don’t be hypocritical in getting ‘upset’ that I made a strong statement to you. In rejecting this truth I say that you are resisting the Holy Ghost (you especially Gerry, having read Huntington, Philpot and so on), and if you intentionally reject one truth then you demonstrate a spirit that would also reject other truths. Because of that you are drawing back and you should return to the pathway of faith. It greives me to see you doing so. The just shall live by faith Gerry. Now what do we read of those that draw back from living by faith?

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
Hebrews 10:38-39

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Ian, please read that last verse very carefully, It says: "If righteousness COME BY THE LAW, then Christ is dead in vain".
That means that we don't earn our righteousness by the Law, before, or after, faith in Christ. Thats what I, and all these gracious men believed and taught.
Yes righteousness comes by faith Gerry. And it continues to be the ‘righteousness of faith’ as opposed to the ‘righteousness of the law’. See Romans 10. For righteousness does not come by the law, but by Christ, so why turn our gaze to the law when we can look with both eyes upon our precious Saviour?

You realise that believers are INDWELT by the Holy Spirit? Doesn’t that strike you as amazing? Don’t you think that if GOD dwells within you that He is able to lead you aright? Or must you add something to Christ’s finished work? You ‘hedge’ the Spirit about with Moses’ law ‘just to be safe’….?

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"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is lawlessnes" 1Jn3:4

You will no doubt object to the translation, it not being the KJV, however, as Philpot was want to do on many occasions, I point out the marginal reading of : "the transgression of the Law" is actually "lawlessness", which is the more literal translation as the origial
is simply "anomia" from the greek, noun form, "a" or "without" + "nomia" or "Law", or "lawlessness", to yield: "Sin is lawlessness".

Thus, Ian, what you are advocating, lawlessness, is nothing other than sin, for the two are made equivalent here by the Apostle John.
Before responding to me Gerry you would be better informed if you actually read my posts. I commented on this passage earlier in this thread and stressed the correct translation as being ‘lawlessness’. Again you make unwarranted presumptions about me.

You cannot accuse me of sin, of lawlessness Gerry, because I am not without law to God. I walk by the law of faith (Rom 3:27), the law of Christ (Gal 6:2), and the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25). And what are these laws? Faith, love (see Gal 6:2), and liberty in Christ. They cannot be Moses’ law because to stand fast in liberty we are told:-

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”
Galatians 5:1

Pilgrim #10548 Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:37 AM
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Pilgrim said:
I suppose I should actually thank you for pressing this issue, i.e., answering Gadsby's erroneous statements. You want an exegesis of 1Tim 1:9 since both you and he and all Antinomians love to use it as evidence for your position. But in fact, it goes to show exactly what I have been saying all along. You are confusing the Scriptural teaching concerning "justification" with "sanctification". It is YOU who cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth and fail to see the distinction between Law and Gospel as the vast majority of the Church has for centuries.
Oh how I wish you hadn't made such sweeping statements Pilgrim, because by going on to complete confuse justification with sanctification in your exegesis of the verse below you really contradict yourself here.

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"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..."
'The idea that Paul here teaches that "the justified Christian" has "nothing to do with the law" is burdened by the following objections:
  • It is totally foreign to the context in which the apostle (barring the salutation which pertains to the entire letter) as yet has said nothing about justified Christians.
  • Here in verse 9 he is speaking entirely in general about "a (notice a, not the) righteous person; and he is saying that for such a righteous person law is not laid down.
  • A word is often explained by its antonyms. Here "a righteous person" stand over against persons who are "lawless, insubordinate, impious, sinful, unholy, profane, murderers of fathers, murderers of mothers," etc., all of which terms have to do with sins in the moral-spiritual realm, sins of attitude and conduct, sins against the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Hence, it certainly seems very probably that we are here in the moral, not in the forensic realm.
A few comments on your points above. The context is that amongst those to whom Paul writes were those who had turned aside from the simplicity of Christ's commandments in the Gospel of faith and love, “unto vain jangling: Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.”.

These were believers (or professing believers) who sought to teach the law to their fellow believers. They felt that it was important that believers used the law as a rule of life. So they desired to teach it, “understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm”. But as Paul says in verse 9 “the law is not made for a righteous man”, so why insist that he is bound to it? These people were guilty of not using the law lawfully. The law is made for sinners – to them it is addressed. But believers have paid the law’s debt in Christ’s death for them – the law has no more to say to them, having been completely fulfilled in Christ. Thus to return to it is to use it unlawfully.

Of course this passage deals with ‘justified’ Christians. The only men who are righteous are those who are justified by faith in Christ. And that passage says that “law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient”, or in other words, “law is not made for a justified man, but for the lawless and disobedient”.

A righteous man IS a justified man. A justified man IS a righteous man. And the law is not made for a righteous man.

That is SO obvious it hardly needs stating. Yet it seems you are SO obstinate that I do need to state it. It grieves me that that is so. Oh may ears be opened to the truth of God's word, by His grace!

The lawful use of the law is to preach it to sinners to convict of sin. It is a schoolmaster unto Christ. But when faith is come we are no longer under the schoolmaster. The law is made for sinners, not the righteous.

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Paul is addressing the false teachers in Ephesus who were more focused upon finding their ancestral heritage than being found sinners before God; being convicted of their sin by the law. This can be clearly seen from verse 7 and also 1Tim 6:2:, 20; 2Tim 3:2 and Titus 1:10; 3:5. These men had not been humbled by the law but were puffed up, haughty boastful, proud, arrogant, etc. Thus Paul contrasts himself with them in his self-appellation in verse 15. These men also are like those whom Jesus rebuked when He said,

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Mark 2:17 (KJV) "When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
These comments are pretty good, and just go to prove what I am saying. It is the sick which need a physician. The law was made for the ‘sick’ to prove them to be sinners, and is thus a schoolmaster unto Christ (Gal 3:24). But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:25). Once made whole by Christ, we are righteous in Him. We have no need to be under that law which was ‘not made for a righteous man’.

Yet these men taught it, probably because they had never been completely slain by the law – it had never finished its work upon them, they were never truly delivered from it, so continued to teach it as binding upon believers and unbelievers alike, whereas Paul firmly responds by showing that it is made for unbelievers not believers. For sinners, not the righteous.

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Thus, this passage deals with sinners who need to be convicted under the law, repent and believe on Christ unto justification. It has nothing to do with a Christian's relationship to the law for sanctification.
The passage’s comments regarding “the lawless and disobedient” for whom the law is made certainly deals with sinners who need to be convicted under the law, repent and believe on Christ unto justification. But that is CONTRASTED with those for whom the law is NOT made – righteous men, justified men.

Thus the passage certainly deals with justified men, in contrast to those who are NOT justified. The law is not made for a righteous, a justified, man. So who are these people who are “desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm”?

Why, they are those who would teach justified believers who are righteous in Christ, that the law is ‘laid’ upon them for their sanctification! That though justified by faith alone, now they must use the law as rule of life. BUT, says Paul, the law is NOT laid upon a righteous man, a justified man, but upon the lawless and disobedient.

And to say otherwise about the law is to use it unlawfully, having swerved aside from faith unto vain jangling.

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“If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal 5:18.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:14

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:6

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4

#10549 Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:38 AM
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Yes and a hindrance to those who truly wish to live a Godly Life.

AMEN BROTHER

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Wes said:
The Christian community as a whole has rejected antinomianism over the years for several reasons. It has regarded the view as damaging to the unity of the Bible, which demands that one part of the divine revelation must not contradict another. Even more important, it has argued that antinomians misunderstood the nature of justification by faith, which, though granted apart from the works of the law, is not sanctification. In general, orthodoxy teaches that the moral principles of the law are still valid, not as objective strivings but as fruits of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer. This disposes of the objection that since the law is too demanding to be kept, it can be completely thrust aside as irrelevant to the individual living under grace.
The Christian community as a whole has NOT rejected the truth that the Gospel is the believer’s rule of life not the law. They may reject ‘Antinomianism’, but then that is something different.

The fact that Luther, Huntington, Toplady, Gadsby and many more preached these things shows the falsity of your assertions.

Your comment here “In general, orthodoxy teaches that the moral principles of the law are still valid, not as objective strivings but as fruits of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer” is, I am sad to say, sleight of hand. The fact is that by putting believers under the law as a rule of life you are going against the work of the Spirit, and encouraging works of the flesh, as objective strivings. You try to represent it as ‘fruit of the Spirit’ here but that is not in accord with scripture, for…

If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal 5:18.

(A verse taken from the very chapter which goes on to describe the fruit of the Spirit!)

Also, your appeal to history, to ‘orthodoxy’ in the church, is much the same appeal that the Roman Catholic Church opponents of the Reformers would have made when these ‘upstarts’ started to preach the doctrine of ‘Justification by Faith alone’ – “Oh dear, orthodoxy doesn’t teach that Antinomian error! Just read Saint so and so, or Friar so and so…..”. By all means, value sound doctrine, but underlying your sentiments are too strong an appeal to your heritage. You claim to be a child of the Reformation but you lack its spirit and its emphasis on the authority of the scriptures. Sola scriptura Sir. Your sentiments would have opposed the Reformation, not supported it.

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Your view of grace suggests no usefulness for the law in the life of the believer. In fact you go out of your way to make your antinomian views clear by using terms like, “the law is dead,” “to abolish the law,” and “the law is crucified and dead to us.” However as I have pointed out in my previous replies to you and Mark faith doesn’t make the law void, rather it establishes it.

Oh I don't say there is no usefulness in the law for the believer. It is part of scripture and we read that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16. But nevertheless we should rightly divide the word of God, and if God says that we are no longer under the law but under grace then so we are. The law certainly reveals God's holiness, justice and goodness, but it is not binding on the believer, he is not under it, it is not his rule of life. The law demands righteousness but doesn't give it. The Gospel actually brings in the Righteousness of God. Once the schoolmaster and Moses have done their work, and we have been led to Christ, and faith has come then we are no longer under the schoolmaster. We are dead to it by the body of Christ. Certainly what it says is true, but Christ has fulfilled all its demands and all our righteousness is to be found in Christ. The just shall live by faith.

It is interesting that the quotes here which you attribute to me were actually made by Luther. I think I worded things slightly differently, but nevertheless you obviously reject Luther’s counsel too. The counsel of one of the most important of the Reformers who risked life and all to stand up and preach the truth of the Gospel of Christ, despite the opposition of the 'church' at the time.

The Gospel I preach is NOT Antinomianism. It is free and Sovereign Grace from start to finish, which gives all the glory to God for our justification, sanctification, glorification. It mixes no works of man with the works of God. All is of grace. It is the very same Gospel preached by Christ and the Apostles at the beginning and which continues to be preached by those despised, maligned, rejected servants of God in the church down through history, who suffer just what the prophets of old did, and their Master the Lord Jesus Christ did – persecution for righteousness sake.

It is the Gospel of which Paul writes in Romans 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto Salvation”. The power of God unto Salvation! How is that Paul? Well Ian, “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith”. The righteousness of God! That righteousness, revealed in the Gospel, in Christ, which fulfils all the law’s demands (Romans 8:3-4). By what means Paul? By faith Ian, for …

The Just shall live by faith.

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“Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew 5:10-12



“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Romans 8:3-4



“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:28-39

#10551 Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:53 AM
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Sanctus_Stultus said:
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Carol said:
Amen Ian. Thanks for all your informative posts. Such a help to me.

In him,
Carol

Yes and a hindrance to those who truly wish to live a Godly Life. I suggest you read a better man who truly knew what he spoke of: THE PERPETUITY OF THE LAW OF GOD. Charles H. Spurgeon

Pete

Hardly Pete. Scripture is very clear that sin will have dominion over us if we are under law, but doesn't because we are not under law but under grace. Take a look at your own life Pete, the thoughts and lusts within your heart and be honest with yourself - the law isn't quenching them is it? They are still there. In fact the more you tell yourself "Thou shalt not commit adultery", the more your mind starts to lust after women, the more the law condemns you. It brings no life Pete, no deliverance. As Paul found out in Romans 7, the law only fires up the sin within.

You see it is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man Pete. It is in the inward parts, in the heart, in the mind, that sin in the flesh springs up. You can put on a fair show of religion outwardly using the law. Before other men you can appear very holy, but what are you like within? Are the sinful thoughts and desires still there? As Christ said unto the Pharisees:

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"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
Matthew 23:25-28

Likewise Paul speaks in 2 Timothy 3:5 of those who have "a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof". Outward conformity to the law isn't enough. What of the inward parts? God desires truth in the inward parts, and the law doesn't produce that, it cannot produce it, in fact it simply stirs up sin within us. It demands righteousness but produces the very opposite because of the sin which is in our flesh - believer or unbeliever. The law exposes the sin which is within us, even reaching to the thoughts and intentions of the heart but it provides no ability to alter those thoughts and intentions. It just condemns us.

Only the Gospel produces this righteousness which is not only outward, but inward. It is entirely the work of God. As David knew, and wrote of in Psalm 51:

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"Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."
Psalm 51:6-12

What we need Pete, what we long for, what we desire is more than a form of godliness, more than outward appearances. No, we want the real thing. Truth in the inward parts. Deliverance from sin, and the dominion of sin. In the mind, the thoughts, the affections, the heart. True Godliness in the inward man, producing Godly conduct outwardly as a result.

Now listen to Paul, a better man than both myself and Spurgeon, a man who wrote as inspired by the Holy Spirit, who gives us this Godly wisdom, to lead us unto Godly lives:-

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"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
Romans 6:14-15




"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
Romans 8:3-5




"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
"
Galatians 3:1-12

#10552 Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:36 AM
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Mr. Potts,

I noticed you concluded your last reply to me with a quote from Matthew 5:10-12 which speaks about being persecuted for righteousness sake. You even highlighted part of that quote.

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Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
Don't go getting a martyr complex on me now. Just because I'm refuting your errors doesn't mean I'm persecuting you. Unless you choose to take it that way. I've only been trying to point out what the rest of Scripture has to say on this topic since you choose to exclude verses that disagree with your position. I sincerely hope that the Spirit of the Lord enables you to see this. Finally, I will conclude my thoughts to you with those in my previous message that you haven't responded to in your last reply.

I have pointed out in my previous replies to you and Mark faith doesn’t make the law void, rather it establishes it. The law is summarized by loving God and your neighbor. May I remind you that God gave the law to His covenant people who He already had been delivered out of bondage. The law reveals the character of God and His will for His people. It is not nor ever has been a means of justification. What seems to be missing in your theology is a clear definition of sanctification. When the Lord tells us to live holy lives what is He asking of us?

As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected. We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law. And keeping the moral law is the sure evidence that a Christian is justified by grace through faith alone. May God help us not to believe in antinomianism, but to believe in the true doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. Amen.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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Wes said:
I've only been trying to point out what the rest of Scripture has to say on this topic since you choose to exclude verses that disagree with your position.
I 'choose to exclude verses that disagree with' my 'position'?

I don't think so Wes. What I preach is taught throughout scripture. I haven't 'chosen' to exclude any verses, but obviously I can't quote all scripture in my posts, and not all scripture deals with the same doctrine. But all scripture IS agreed - the believer is not under law, but under grace.

I do believe that I have rightly divided scripture and given the true sense and meaning of it, in as far as God by His grace has enabled me and the Spirit has led me. And any verses which you have presented to me I have tried to deal with and explain in response to you.

In fact, I feel much the same way about yourselves. I have presented many passages which I don't feel that you have explained or answered. Trying to dismiss many of them with the idea that they only refer to justification just won't wash. Many of the texts I have quoted can be clearly shown to apply equally to sanctification as well as justification as they refer to the ongoing state and position of the believer. If the believer is not under law, but under grace, then that is where he is, ONGOING. Not merely 'for justification' but for 'sanctification' also.

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Wes said:
Finally, I will conclude my thoughts to you with those in my previous message that you haven't responded to in your last reply.

I have pointed out in my previous replies to you and Mark faith doesn’t make the law void, rather it establishes it. The law is summarized by loving God and your neighbor. May I remind you that God gave the law to His covenant people who He already had been delivered out of bondage. The law reveals the character of God and His will for His people. It is not nor ever has been a means of justification. What seems to be missing in your theology is a clear definition of sanctification. When the Lord tells us to live holy lives what is He asking of us?

As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected. We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law. And keeping the moral law is the sure evidence that a Christian is justified by grace through faith alone. May God help us not to believe in antinomianism, but to believe in the true doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. Amen.

OK, Wes, I’ll answer these points also. The only reason I didn’t before was lack of time.

I have already replied and shown that faith establishes the law – it doesn’t destroy it. See my other post.

With respect to your analogy of when the law was given, I will remind you that it was given to Israel, through Moses, in the wilderness. The children of Israel travelled through the wilderness for 40 years and because of disobedience many of them never entered into the land of Canaan – Moses included. Who did take them in? Joshua did.

The figurative teaching of that is that the work of Moses led up to Joshua. Moses’ law brought condemnation, and Moses himself never entered the promised land (on earth). However, Joshua (Hebrew version of Jesus), figurative of the Lord Jesus Christ, took the people through the river Jordan into the promised land.

That is a pictorial illustration of what Moses represented (law) being replaced by what Joshua/Jesus represented (Grace in the Gospel). It was Joshua who took the people into the promised land.

That’s the analogy. Now of course we can stretch things with analogies. Israel crossed the Red sea as well as the Jordan. The law (all aspects of it) continued to be observed of course until the coming of Christ. But nevertheless the truth taught of Christ following Moses is important. Moses never entered the promised land with Joshua – they didn’t mix, law and grace don’t mix. Once faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

When the Lord tells us to live a holy life he is calling us to walk by faith, fulfilling the law of faith, the law of Christ and the law of liberty, freed from the bondage of Moses’ law, but walking in faith and love to God, and love to our brethren. The Gospel of Christ fulfils all the law’s demands, but it doesn’t put us back under the law’s legal rule as a rule of life. We walk in the spirit, and if we are led of the spirit then we are not under the law. We walk in a 'new and living way' as indwelt by the Holy Ghost. Read Hebrews 8 and 2 Corinthians 3.

I have expanded on much of that in previous posts so I won’t repeat myself here.

As to your comment “We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law”. That is utterly rejected by scripture.

We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we might walk in righteousness by faith - Yes.

But "in order that we might keep the moral law" (by which you mean the Ten Commandments)? No. Because that law is part of the Mosaic law which is one whole, including ceremonial and judicial laws and which retains its curse and sanctions. Put yourself under it and you are a debtor to keep all of it. But the 'righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us' through Christ, by faith in Him, by walking in the Spirit, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, freed from the yoke of bondage - the law.

As I said early on in this thread there is a difference between law and righteousness. God's grace produces righteousness in the believer, it causes him to walk in a Godly manner. But that isn't done by means of the law. The law certainly delineates certain aspects of righteousness, but it doesn't produce it. The Gospel does. We fulfil what the law demands, not by using the law as a rule, but by walking in the Spirit, by faith, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith. It is all of God, all of grace, so that all the praise and glory might be unto God, for Salvation is of the Lord!

I refer you to the following verses (which I have also quoted before, but which you sadly don’t seem able to accept, or understand):-

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“If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal 5:18.




For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:14




But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6




“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Romans 8:3-4




“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free
.”
Galatians 4:21-31




Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:1

#10554 Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:43 PM
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Mr. Potts,

You consistently fail to rightly distinguish the difference in the writings of the inspired biblical writers in regard to the law as it relates to "justification" and "sanctification". In nearly every case, you perform your surgical procedure of eisogesis upon those passages where the subject is justification and implant your preconceived view of sanctification, aka: "Antinomianism".

You are also wanting to make Luther one of your disciples but we have rejected this novel idea of yours many times. Perhaps Luther's own words will put this idea to flight, although I seriously doubt you will believe Luther's own doctrine over that which you would have him own.

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18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

I have said often enough above that “to be under the Law” means failing to fulfill it or fulfilling it in a slavish fashion, without a cheerful disposition. It is not the Law, however, or nature that acquires this cheerful disposition; faith in Christ Jesus acquires it. And this being led by the Spirit, this obeying the desires of the Spirit, this battle and struggle which constitutes our whole life, brings it about that God mercifully pardons us for failing to do the things we want to do.

(Luther’s Works – Galatians 1519, Volume 27, p. 365-66)

Paul cannot forget about his doctrine of faith; but he keeps on repeating and emphasizing it, even when he is dealing with good works. Here someone may raise the objection: “How can it be that we are not under the Law? After all, Paul, you yourself teach that we have a flesh whose desires are against the Spirit, a flesh that opposes, vexes, and enslaves us. And we are really conscious of our sin; nor can we be set free in the sense in which we would most like to be free. This is surely what it means to be under the Law. Then why do you say, Paul, that we are not under the Law?” “Do not let this bother you,” he says. “Only concentrate on this, that you be led by the Spirit, that is, that you obey the will which is opposed to the flesh and that you refuse to gratify the desires of the flesh; for this is what it means to be led and drawn by the Spirit. And then you will not be under the Law.” Thus Paul speaks of himself in Rom. 7:25: “I serve the Law of God with my mind; that is, in the Spirit I am not guilty of any sin. But with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” And so the godly are not under the Law, namely, by the Spirit; for the Law is unable to accuse them and to carry out its sentence of death against them, even though they are conscious of their sin and confess that they are sinners. Through Christ, “who was born under the Law to redeem those who were under the Law” (4:4-5), the Law has been deprived of its legal hold on them. In the godly, therefore, the Law does not dare accuse as sin that which truly is a sin against the Law.

(Luther’s Works – Galatians 1535, Concordia Publishing House, Volume 27, p. 77)
I would also offer you a couple of brief comments from one of the most capable and distinguished New Testament commentators in modern time, William Hendriksen, on two of your most often "proof texts". Clearly, Hendriksen has understood Paul's Epistle to the Galatians rightly, in opposition to your "eisogetical gymnastics".

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Gal. 5:13. For you were called to freedom, brothers; only (do) not (turn) this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh . . .

When Paul warns the Galatians not to turn freedom into an opportunity for the flesh but through love to be serving one another, he is placing service over against selfishness, the positive over against the negative. Paul does this frequently: see Rom. 12:21; 13:14; I Cor. 6:18-20; Eph. 4:28, 31, 32; 5:28, 29; 6:4; Col. 3:5-17; I Thess. 4:7, etc. Vice can only be conquered by virtue, which is the Spirit’s gift, man’s responsibility. Continued: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, namely, in this: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Paul quotes Lev. 19:18. One can also say that he is quoting the words of Jesus (Matt. 22:39, 40; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27; cf. Matt. 7:12; 19:19; Rom. 13:8-10; and I Cor. 13). Love, then, is both the summary (interpretive epitome or condensation) and the realization in practice of the entire God-given moral law, viewed as a unit. True, in harmony with the immediately preceding context (“through love be serving one another”), the apostle here refers specifically to the second, not to the first, table of the law, but that first table is in the background, for the two are inseparable (I John 4:20, 21). Paul’s teaching throughout is that though it would be a gross error to say that the sinner must love God and his neighbor in order to be saved, it is entirely true that the “saint,” saved by grace, out of gratitude for (and by dint of) this salvation loves God and his neighbor.

(N.T. Commentary – Galatians, Baker Book House, pp. 211)

Gal 5:18 But if you are being led by the Spirit you are not under law.

(2) What It Is to be “led by the Spirit”?

Before giving a positive answer to this question it may be well to point out what is not meant by being led by the Spirit. Naturally, it cannot refer to being governed by one’s own sinful impulses and inclinations, nor to “being easily led” into waywardness by evil companions. Also definitely excluded here is the idea of those moral philosophers, ancient and modern, who hold that in every man there is a higher and a lower nature, and that each human being has within himself the power of causing the former to triumph over the latter. This idea is excluded even if for no other reason than this, that throughout, in Paul’s teaching, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, of one substance with the Father and the Son. He is not “our other or better self.” See Rom. 8:26, 27; I Cor. 2:10; II Cor. 13:14. This also shows that, strictly speaking, being led by the Spirit cannot even be identified with the triumph of ‘‘the new man’’ (the regenerated nature) within us over ‘‘the old man’’ (our corrupt nature, not yet fully destroyed) That victory and that implied struggle are certainly very real; yet they are not in and by themselves what is meant by being led by the Spirit, but are rather the result of the Spirit’s active indwelling. They are certainly implied, but are not basic.

What then does the leading of the Spirit — to change from the passive to the active voice, for the sake of the definition — actually mean? It means sanctification. It is that constant, effective, and beneficent influence which the Holy Spirit exercises within the hearts of God’s children whereby they are being directed and enabled more and more to crush the power of indwelling sin and to walk in the way of God’s commandments, freely and cheerfully.

By so defining it extremes are avoided. Thus, on the one hand, to be led by the Spirit means more than to be guided by him, though, to be sure, the Spirit is also our Guide (John 16:13; cf. Matt. 15:14; Luke 6:39; Acts 8:31; Rev. 7:17) . But the very fact that, according to the passage now under consideration (Gal. 5:18), the enslaving power of the law has been broken for all those who are being led by the Spirit, indicates that this leadership which the Spirit provides implies more than “pointing out the right way.” It reminds us not so much of the Indian guide who pointed out to the pioneer white explorers the pass through the Rockies, as of the blind man of Jericho who was led to Jesus (Luke 18:40; cf. Matt. 21:2; Luke 10:34; John 18:28; Acts 6:12; 9:2). Merely pointing out the way to him would not have helped him. When the Holy Spirit leads believers he becomes the controlling influence in their lives, bringing them at last to glory.

On the other hand, however, this representation also steers clear of the opposite extreme, that of denying human responsibility and activity. The blind man of Jericho was not carried or borne (II Peter 1:21) to Jesus, but did his own walking. Warfield has said very aptly: “It is his [the Holy Spirit’s] part to keep us in the path and to bring us at length to the goal. But it is we who tread every step of the way; our limbs that grow weary with the labor; our hearts that faint, our courage that fails — our faith that revives our sinking strength, our hope that instills new courage into our souls — as we toil over the steep ascent” (The Power of God unto Salvation, p. 172). Being led by the Holy Spirit, to be fully effective, implies that one allows himself to be led. As to the interrelation of these two factors — the believers’ self-activity and God’s (the Holy Spirit’s) leading —, Paul’s own Spirit-inspired statement cannot be improved upon: “With fear and trembling continue to work out y o u r own salvation; for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12, 13).

(N.T. Commentary – Galatians, Baker Book House, pp. 216-17)

And lastly, I do share Wes' concern over your persistent application of particular biblical passages which speak of those who would be justified by the works of the law to us, in fact the overwhelming majority of believers throughout history, who hold firmly to Sola Fide, thus implying despite your denial, that we are without grace, and therefore subject to damnation. Let it be perfectly clear in your sectarian mind that we categorically deny that anyone can or will be saved by doing the works of the law. But salvation is only secured by grace through faith in the Lord Christ alone. And in the spirit of the Reformers, we say, we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. I personally do not take kindly to this unwarranted inferences and appellation to those of us here who reject your Antinomianism as "Legalists".

Exodus 20:16 (KJV) "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Proverbs 6:16-19 (ASV) "There are six things which Jehovah hateth; Yea, seven which are an abomination unto him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood; A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief, A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren."

Matthew 15:19 (KJV) "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"

Romans 13:9-10 (ASV) "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law."


In His Grace,

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Pilgrim #10555 Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:24 PM
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And lastly, I do share Wes' concern over your persistent application of particular biblical passages which speak of those who would be justified by the works of the law to us, in fact the overwhelming majority of believers throughout history, who hold firmly to Sola Fide, thus implying despite your denial, that we are without grace, and therefore subject to damnation. Let it be perfectly clear in your sectarian mind that we categorically deny that anyone can or will be saved by doing the works of the law. But salvation is only secured by grace through faith in the Lord Christ alone. And in the spirit of the Reformers, we say, we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.

Well said, brother.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />

In Him,

Gerry

#10556 Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:01 PM
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Ian_Potts said:
I 'choose to exclude verses that disagree with' my 'position'?

I don't think so Wes.

As to your comment “We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law”. That is utterly rejected by scripture.

Ian Potts,

Let me summarize the relationship between the law and the gospel for you. To be "under the law" in one sense (Romans 6:14) excludes a person from the enjoyment of the grace which the gospel imparts; to be "under law" is the opposite of being "under grace" and means that the person is the bondslave of the condemnation and power of sin. In this sense, therefore, it is by the gospel that we are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) and put to death to the law (Romans 7:4)- "we died to that wherein we were held" (cf. Galations 2:19). The gospel is annulled if the decisiveness of this discharge is not appreciated. In that event we have fallen away from the grace and Christ becomes of no effect. (cf. Galations 5:4).

Ian I think you understand that first paragraph but this is not the whole account of the relation of law and gospel. Paul said also in the heart of his exposition and defence of the gospel of grace, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31). As a believer he writes that he consents unto the law that it is good, that he delights in the law of God after the inward man, that with the mind he serves the law of God (Romans 7: 16, 22, 25), and that the aim of Christ's accomplishment was that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). When we look for an example of the law he had in mind we find it in Romans 7:7. And no doubt can remain that in Romans 13:9 he provides us with concrete examples of the law which love fulfills, showing thereby that there is no incompatibility between love as the controlling motive of the believer's life and conformity to the commandments which the law of God enuniciates. The conclusion is inescapable that the precepts of the Decalogue have relevance to the believer as the criteria of that manner of life which love to God and to our neighbor dictates. The same apostle uses terms which are the same effect as that of being "under law" when he says, "being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ" (I Corinthians 9:21). In respect of obligation he is not divorced from the law of God, he is not lawless in referrence to God. And this is validated and exemplified in his being bound to the law of Christ.

The reason for this sustained appeal to the law of God as the norm by which the conduct of the believer is to be judged and by which his life is to be governed resides in the relation of the law to the character of God. God is holy, just, and good. Likewise "the law is holy, just, and good" (Romans 7:12). The law is, therefore, the reflection of God's own perfection. In a word, it is the transcript of God's holiness as the same comes to expesssion for the regulation of thought and behavior consonant with His glory. We are to be holy in all manner of life because He who has called us is holy (I Peter 1:15,16). To be relieved of the demands which the law prescribes would contradict the relation to God which grace establishes. Salvation is salvation from sin, and "sin is the transgression of the law" (I John 3:4). Salvation is, therefore, to be saved from transgression of the law and thus to conformity to it. Antinomian bias strikes at the nature of the gospel. It says, in effect, let us continue in sin.

A believer is re-created after the image of God. He therefore loves God and his brother also (I John 4:20,21). And because he loves God he loves what mirrors God's perfection. He delights in the law of God after the inward man (Romans 7:22). Obedience is his joy, disobedience the plague of his heart. The saint is destined for conformity to the image of God's Son (Romans 8:29) and he is re-made after the pattern of Him who had no sin and could say, "yea, thy law is within my heart" (Psalm 90:8).


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Pilgrim #10557 Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:13 AM
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Pilgrim said:
You consistently fail to rightly distinguish the difference in the writings of the inspired biblical writers in regard to the law as it relates to "justification" and "sanctification". In nearly every case, you perform your surgical procedure of eisogesis upon those passages where the subject is justification and implant your preconceived view of sanctification, aka: "Antinomianism".
Pilgrim,

I am well aware of the passages which deal with justification. But the fact remains that many of these passages ALSO deal with sanctification. Although the Judaisers at Galatia sought to put believers back under law for justification Paul’s response in ‘Galatians’ isn’t simply to say ‘You are justified by faith alone, don’t look to your keeping of the law for justification’. No, he says that we aren’t under the law at all! Not only are we not justified by the law but we aren’t under it as believers. Not only were these Judaisers wrong to add law works to faith for justification, but they were wrong to bind the law upon believers at all. “Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” Gal 3:3. We walk by the Spirit – we stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free - we must not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage Gal 5:1.

So you are right to say that Galatians deals with justification, but it does not only deal with justification – it deals with sanctification too. Just read chapters 5 and 6 – they address the believer’s walk, of how he is led of the Spirit and is not under law, of what the fruit of the Spirit is, and so on.

Also, Romans 6, 7 and 8 are addressing the believer’s relationship to law in his walk, not simply for justification. “Sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law but under grace” is about the ongoing walk of the believer, not his justification.

Again, that is so clear from what the passages say, and their context, that I really shouldn’t have to be stressing it. But your insistence in trying to dismiss the obvious application of such passages to the ongoing walk of the believer (“sanctification”) forces me to point them out. “Not under law” is the position of the believer as a result of his justification, as a result of his flesh being crucified with Christ at the cross and having risen again in Christ, the other side of death, out of the reach of the law having fully satisfied all the law’s demands in Christ his Saviour.

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You are also wanting to make Luther one of your disciples but we have rejected this novel idea of yours many times. Perhaps Luther's own words will put this idea to flight, although I seriously doubt you will believe Luther's own doctrine over that which you would have him own. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
I read your quote from Luther and saw little to contradict my position in it. If you and I read the same Bible and differ in our understanding, is it any wonder that we would disagree on what Luther says too?

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And lastly, I do share Wes' concern over your persistent application of particular biblical passages which speak of those who would be justified by the works of the law to us, in fact the overwhelming majority of believers throughout history, who hold firmly to Sola Fide, thus implying despite your denial, that we are without grace, and therefore subject to damnation. Let it be perfectly clear in your sectarian mind that we categorically deny that anyone can or will be saved by doing the works of the law. But salvation is only secured by grace through faith in the Lord Christ alone. And in the spirit of the Reformers, we say, we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. I personally do not take kindly to this unwarranted inferences and appellation to those of us here who reject your Antinomianism as "Legalists".

I have quoted passages which deal with sanctification to you Pilgrim. You may claim that the passages only deal with justification but I beg to differ. I was not dealing with the subject of justification. If this is the way you have taken it then I am sorry.

However, despite your rather strong accusation here you provide no quotation from any of my posts as evidence of what I have said, or implied, so really I can offer little in response. Would you please provide a quote or two from my posts, along with your ‘understanding’ of what you think I am implying in those quotes, and then I shall be pleased to clarify what I meant or didn’t mean by them.

Your rather self-righteous indignation, though, is strange considering the number of critical comments directed towards myself which I could take exception to, but which I have generally chosen to let pass. Some of the comments seriously misrepresent my position, especially the statement that my doctrine “says, in effect, let us continue in sin”. I reject that claim which does disservice to the work of the Holy Spirit, for “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law” Gal 5:18.

Paul in the epistle to the Romans also emphatically rejects the claim, which is nevertheless always laid against those who truly preach the Gospel, as Paul well knew:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:1-2, 14-15


Just for clarity I shall quote a few of the comments you and others have made against me here. I do so reluctantly, but as you have taken offence at something I have said (which you have yet to quote) your complaint forces me to do so in order to present a true and balanced picture of things and the context within which any comments of mine were made - though I have sought no apology from you.

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(Note, in the quotes below read ‘Antinomian’ as defined by yourselves – the view that the law is not the believer’s rule of life. True Antinomianism is something else…)

PILGRIM:
“It's only important to you to support your erroneous presuppositions. Sorry, but I can't allow you to use what I said and twist it so as to make a case for your fallacious views.”

“Sure sounds like Charismania to me, sir!”

WES:
“As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected.

“Antinomian bias strikes at the nature of the gospel. It says, in effect, let us continue in sin.

SUSAN:
“I am praying for you Mark, that you will not be deceived by this incorrect handling of God's Word, even denying the Lord's own words.

GERRY:
“I swallowed it too, but then it was taught under the guise of Dispensationalism. It matters not how the Adversary disguises his lies, or how seductively or persuasivly they are presented, they are still lies, and I have seen the results of it worked out in the life of congregations of professors and posessors and I want no part of it ever again.”

“I happen to believe that Gadsby, and Huntington, etc were powerfully used of God and were godly men, but that they were in error in these areas, not damnable error, but fairly serious error. I also believe there is a difference between error honestly held and error stubbornly and pridefully held.”

Thus, Ian, what you are advocating, lawlessness, is nothing other than sin, for the two are made equivalent here by the Apostle John.

PETE:
Yes and a hindrance to those who truly wish to live a Godly Life


And Wes replies to me “Don't go getting a martyr complex on me now. Just because I'm refuting your errors doesn't mean I'm persecuting you.”……

You quoted a number of verses warning me of bearing false witness. In response I would offer the following words of Jesus as he directs us all in Gospel righteousness and the way in which we should respond to others when they wrong us. The difference in attitude between the Pharisees and Christ is quite striking. There is much wisdom here for us all to learn from.

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Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven
: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
Matthew 5:38-45

“They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more
.”
John 8:4-11

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