The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum ...The people miscalled Antinomians ?

Mr. Potts,

I find little to respond to in your reply above as it is simply your same old rhetoric; e.g., insisting that Paul's warnings about having begun by faith and then falling back into works applies to sanctification as well as justification. But the truth is, that should someone who claims to be justified by faith alone thereafter believe that the keeping of the law has merit, that this keeping of the moral law make him/her more acceptable to God, then this is not sanctification which is in jeopardy, but justification. Again, you are blinded to this truth which the overwhelming majority of believers throughout history have discovered from the Spirit's teaching them this in the Scriptures. But you say you couldn't care less what other believer's have believed and churches have taught, etc.. except for the writings of a few men who beg to differ.

Isn't this just another way of saying, "The only thing that is absolute is relativity."? Are you saying that we as men will find it impossible to discover the truth of what another has said or written? That's a sad commentary on the intellectual ability of the human race, don't you think? However, contrary to your dissimulation, again the vast and overwhelming majority of intelligent, god-fearing men and women, who believe on Christ and call upon the Spirit to guide them into all truth, have read Martin Luther, but more importantly the Bible, and have understood both as holding fast to the same truth which I and nearly everyone else here believes: The moral law of God is perpetually binding upon all men, believers not excepted, as a rule of life and guide to holiness.

We hold to the Reformation and biblical doctrine of SOLA Scriptura not SOLO Scriptura. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


In His Grace,

Then why respond Pilgrim?

However you are referring here to my quotation of the following verses:-

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
Hebrews 10:38-39

You are essentially inferring that “the just shall live by faith” here only refers to justification. Really? Why then, does chapter 11 immediately following go on to describe what faith is and to enumerate many instances of how saints throughout the Bible lived out their lives by faith? Not merely how they were justified, but how they lived. By faith.

To mix law with faith in sanctification is to draw back from the purity of the Gospel rule of living by faith. It is to mix faith with the works of the law. I don’t say that that affects someone’s understanding or belief of justification, or of their standing before God in terms of justification, but I do say that it affects their walk. To be under law is to encourage sin to have dominion over us. I repeat Paul’s points:-

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:14-15

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”
Galatians 5:1

I respond Pilgrim that man by wisdom knew not God, that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. We need the Spirit of God to lead us into truth.

I believe there IS one truth, there IS one true Gospel, and any other is a false gospel. What I have set forth in this thread is the truth. Your Antinomian mixture of law and grace is another gospel. Whatever names and writers you can run to for support in your views won’t help one bit to make them true. Error is error, whoever teaches it.

But my prayer for you and others Pilgrim is that God will open your eyes and lead you forth by the Spirit into the truth, in the wonderful liberty of the child of God under the Gospel, in that heavenly righteousness as revealed only in that Gospel and in and through the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace is a wonderful thing Pilgrim. We are justified by grace, we are sanctified by grace, we are glorified by grace. All is of grace, from start to finish. And all is to be found in Jesus Christ. May Christ be our all in all.

After reading this thread several times and reading elsewhere about this it seems to me that both "sides" believe the other to be "against the law",ie,antinomian.It is crystal clear to me that this is nonsense <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Neither school of thought is against The Law as should be obvious from what has been posted here .

We should all take the time to read more carefully.

And before any start wingeing-that applies to me too <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How true it is that no matter how many times you run to Philpot, Huntington or any other Antinomian who has been found wanting and rejected by the vast majority of scholars, theologians, pastors and laymen throughout history, all of which were men of profound faith and who held tenaciously to Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria, it isn't going to change the truth that believers are saved by grace from beginning to end AND that the moral law of God is forever binding upon them as a rule of life, as it is pleasing to God that they be holy as He is holy.

Wrong again, oh ye who despises the very character of God, which is revealed in His commandments. There is no intermixing of faith and works, but rather we hold that true saving faith is exemplified and exhibited in good works; the keeping of God's immutable holy law. (Jam 1:26) "Thou shalt not steal", for example, is no less binding upon an believer as it is upon an unbeliever. We are not "free" to sin, the transgression of the law. But rather we are free in Christ from the penalty of the law so that we may freely live according to that law, having been redeemed from its curse. We are to be analogs of the Lord Christ, our righteousness, Whose life is paradigmatic of how we are to live before God.

In His Grace,

Mark,

That's just plain hogwash! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> It is YOU and Mr. Potts who have consistently stated that the moral law has been abrogated as to believers. Countless times it has been written by you two that "we are dead to the law", i.e., believers have nothing to do with the moral law of God and the law has nothing to do with the believer. It has been said that we are to "walk by faith", meaning by the inner leading and guiding of the Spirit APART from any relationship to the moral law of God whatsoever.

On the other hand, all the rest of us, less Carol and perhaps some who have been silent and lurking in the background, have stated countless times that the moral law of God is the very expression of God's nature; immutable, perpetual and binding upon all men everywhere for all time until Christ returns. It's application/relation to men, however, differs depending upon whether or not they are in Christ. Now, if you haven't been able to grasp the clear differences between what Antinomians teach and what the historic churches, the Reformed churches in particular, then I suggest YOU do some more careful reading. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His GRACE,

Dear Mr. Potts,

In your reply to Pilgrim, you stated:


I can certainly agree with this statement. The problem seems to be in the manner in which grace becomes evident in sanctification. We can certainly say that we are sanctified by grace in that sanctification is spoken of in the NT as being definitively constituted. Acts 20:32, "So now brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." See also Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 1:2, Eph. 5:26. The Bible clearly says here and elsewhere that there is a decisive point in every Christian life in which the power of sin comes under the control of the provisions of grace. The Christian is justified on the grounds of Christ's imputed obedience which the Christian partakes of through faith. The Christian's definitive sanctification also is based upon his real spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection--The Christian is also brought into this spiritual union by faith and at this point not only is he accounted righteous by Christ's perfect obedience to the law but he also is counted holy by God according to Christ's mastering of sin. This is not merely a positional holiness but there is an actual real parting or breach with the reign of sin. This is brought about by the spiritual union with Christ and is decisive and definite. If our view of sanctification stopped here, then you might have sound reason in throwing the law out and declaring it no longer relevant in the Christian's life and walk in Christ.

But, to stop here and base our view on the use and purpose of God's law only on our passive roll in definitive sanctification is a dangerous error. The Bible certainly doesn't cut short it's instruction on sanctification here. From the point of justification and (definitive sanctification) we still have a journey to make before fully partaking in glory. It is a journey traversed by a soul still attached to a fleshly body and until the day that soul reaches glorification; we all know (existentially and Biblically) that a war rages, as the fleshly desires are mortified and replaced with a growing degree of spirituality. (A process which brings a higher and higher sense of one's remaining sin problem). IOW sanctification is progressive as well as definitive. Paul clearly expects the Christian to conform his processive experience with sin to his definitive death to sin. The Christian is not passive in progressive sanctification. Romans 12:1-2 points to the believers active, participative, roll in both dying to sin and growing in holiness. Mr. Potts, your disregard of God's law, which Paul speaks of as being holy, just, spiritual, and good (Rom. 7:12, 14, 16) strikes a damaging blow to the Christians progressive sanctification.

Paul who speaks so often of justification by faith alone, completely apart from the works of the law, always maintains that the Gospel doesn't nullify the law but upholds it!

When Paul say's that the unGodly man cannot subject himself to the law of God (Rom. 8:7)--what are we to infer about the Godly man? Christ has redeemed us, to enable us to obey the moral requirements of the law. That moral law of God which we are to obey, is revealed in the Scriptures, especially (but not exclusively) in the Decalogue.

In Romans 13, Paul speaks on ethics. Then in verses 9-10, he quotes most of the second half of the ten commandments. Doesn't his appeal to the Decalogue as that which the law of love fulfills demonstrate the abiding relevance of the law? Doesn't his appeal to the love obligation also intertwine his standard for Christian ethics with that of Jesus, who gave His summarization of the ten commandments also as "Love your neighbor as yourself." Clearly, according to Scriptures, the Decalogue is to be the ethical norm for the Christian's covenant way of life.

Mr. Potts, the statements you have made throughout this thread indicate that you have a flawed concept of sanctification. The only way that your view can be consistent, is to take Paul's teachings and hold them in direct contradiction to themselves. You have placed the flow and continuity of the Bible as a whole on a dispensationalist chopping block and butchered it to pieces. Love finds its parameters within the law of God. Your view leaves the Christian with nothing more to look to as a guide along his pilgrimage to glory, than vague, undefined "feelings." If one is truly in Christ, then he wil truly appreciate the precepts God has provided for him in His Holy Scriptures, so that he can live out his life to the glory of Christ, his Redeemer and King.

Please sir, prayerfully review and reconsider these things.

Sincerely,
Stucco

Mr. Potts,
In order that those of us who agree with Pilgrim might be clear what you meant when you wrote:
Does this mean that you would see the following as applying to us?
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Hello Stucco, I hope you don’t mind me butting here. I just have to say that I have trouble with the term ‘Progressive sanctification.’ If you mean by the term growing in grace, growing in love, faith, knowledge and commitment to Christ, I can agree with that, but if you mean, as you said in your post, growing in holiness, or gradually attaining higher degrees of holiness, I say, how can that be? How can we contribute to our own holiness? And if, as we all agree, sanctification is essential to salvation, then works (our contribution) can have no part in it, can it? It has to be all of grace, doesn’t it? I believe that when God chose us to eternal life before the world began, we were sanctified. We were set apart and made holy for God. I do not think our good works, our devotion, our prayers or meditations and bible reading, anything, makes us MORE holy. I do believe we grow in faith, devotion, submission and even obedience to Christ, but I do not read anywhere in the bible of a believer claiming to grow in holiness or sanctification before God. We are perfectly holy in Christ right now. How can we improve on that? [b]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. Colossians 1:21-22 There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Romans 8:1[/b] And now, knowing these things, I have a desire, out of love for Christ, to follow his commands. In him, Carol

Perhaps you need to consider the TWO biblical truths concerning sanctification? There is that "Definitive Sanctification" where God looks upon us as complete in Christ due to His work for us. We are holy in Him by virtue of His vicarious substitutionary atonement. In short, God having predestined the elect "to be holy" (Eph 1:4), "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29), knows the end before it actually occurs. Yet, He has also ordained the means by which the end is accomplished in us to that end. Notice the verb usage by Paul in the two aforementioned verses. They both employ "to be" which connote purpose, intent, telos. Although by virtue of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us, by which we are forensically holy; declared righteous, we are in fact anything but righteous or holy in and of ourselves.

The purpose of God to save in Christ includes not only a judicial declaration of justification but a sovereign and progressive work of sanctification, wherein the believer is made holy through the transformation of his soul; putting off the old man and putting on the new man, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph 4:24). We have in principle put off the old man and "have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:". And what is this putting off of the old man but repentance from sin and the putting on the new man but living in accordance with what God considers righteous and holy, i.e., the moral law of God, which every true believer delights in and serves as a bondservant to Christ. (Rom 6 & 7)

When the author of Hebrews writes, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Heb 12:14), he isn't talking about a forensic sanctification (definitive sanctification), but a holiness which one possesses due to the transformation of the soul by the working of the indwelling Spirit.

It is surely "all of grace". Sanctification, the putting off of sin and the putting on of holiness, is but evidence of grace possessed (Jam 1:26). It contributes nothing to one's right standing before God. But it does demonstrate to the believer and to the household of God, that God is indeed working in him/her. This also is one of the fundamental evidences which brings assurance to a believer, as well as being most pleasing to God, Who would have all His children conformed to the image of the Lord Christ. Again, sanctification contributes NOTHING to one's reconciliation to God. That, from beginning to end is Christ's doing. But without progressive sanctification, there is no indication nor warrant to believe that they have been reconciled to God.

You might want to read these articles which set forth the biblical teaching of sanctification:

Definitive Sanctification, by John Murray.

Sanctification, by Thomas Watson.

The Necessity of Progress, by John Angell James.

Will the Unholy be Saved?, by Iain Murray.

The Gradual Conquest, by Ralph Erskine.

A Discourse of Mortification, by Stephen Charnock.

Growth in Grace, by Archibald Alexander.

A Call to Separation, by A.W. Pink.

In His Grace,

If what you say is true, Paul was giving some very odd instuctions to Timothy:


This shows it is possible to grow in godliness since Paul commands Timothy to train himself for godliness like an athlete in training.


I think this passage and others that command us to be holy show clearly that this is not a given with Christians. It requires action on our part.


This shows that the the Word of God sanctifies us. That means that as we mature in our faith, we make progress in the faith. The Lord does this work in us but we are not passive. Jesus would not waste his prayer asking the Father to do what He had already done for them.

Yes were set apart as holy, but there is also the process of sanctification you are missing.



This shows there is room for becoming more Christlike.

Thanks for the articles Pilgrim.

Here are a couple which set forth the biblical teaching of sanctification which you might want to read:


'The Doctrine of Sanctification' By A.W. Pink

'The Meaning of Sanctification' By Bill Parker

In him,
Carol

Carol,

Do you ever have sinful thoughts? Do you have any sinful habits? Do you ever struggle with sin at all? Well, sanctification falls in the category of "already is" and "not yet" in its reality.

The Westminster Shorter Catechism tells us that sanctification is the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.

Are you telling us that you are not putting off the old man and putting on the new man daily? Are you saying that we don't have to deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily? Is there no more room for progress in your life where you can say, "I no longer am vulnerable to that particular sin any more." Do people see you as holy?

A person who is justified by the application of the work of Jesus Christ is declared holy judicially, but he is not rendered fully holy in thought, word and deed at the same moment. He continues to struggle against the remains of sin in his soul. But in that struggle, there is a progression in holiness. The believer grows more and more into conformity with the image of Christ. Sin lessens in his life and spiritual life is seen to increase, evidenced by the fruits of the Spirit.

The Process of Sanctification

The believer must be encouraged in this life as he struggles with the remaining influences of sin and his own imperfections. God has provided many lessons in his word to help us in this battle.

By Christ's atonement the condemnation of sin is removed, the bondage to sin as our master is removed and a new principle of spiritual life is infused. However the believer, prior to the resurrection, is not yet set free from the power of sin and the failings of his imperfect soul.

This process of sanctification is detailed by the Apostle Paul in Romans chapters six, seven and eight. There, and in a few other passages in his epistles, he sets forth the struggle and the promises that ensure our ultimate victory in Christ. A thorough exegetical review of these texts is essential to the understanding of the work of sanctification. (Particularly Romans 7:13-25, Galatians 5:16-26 and Ephesians 4:22-24. To that we add the entire First Epistle of John.)

The work of Sanctification

A person who is justified by the application of the work of Jesus Christ is declared holy judicially, but he is not rendered fully holy in thought, word and deed at that same moment. He continues to struggle against the remains of sin in his soul. But in that struggle, there is a progression in holiness. The believer grows more and more into conformity with the image of Christ. Sin lessens in his life and spiritual life is seen to increase, evidenced by the fruits of the Spirit.

The word "to sanctify" means to set something apart in a special way. Either by designating it for special use, or by actually making it purified from moral pollution.

In the sense of mere designation without actual purification, Jesus said he was sanctified by the Father and sent into the world (John 10:36). Certainly Jesus did not have to be made holy or purified. Yet he was set forth to a special holy task by his incarnation. In Matthew 23:17 Jesus speaks of the Temple sanctifying the gold. The gold was not made morally pure, nor did the Temple remove any of its natural impurities.

When we speak of the sanctification of the believer, the word is used in the second sense of actual moral transformation. We are not merely set apart as special by designation, we are also changed to become more and more holy.

Sanctification has its origin in the decree of God. Before all events relating to created things, God knew certain persons as his own. He predestined them to be sanctified, conformed to the image of his Son (Romans 8:29). The judicial foundation making that conformity possible for fallen persons is the work of Jesus Christ in making atonement for his people. The work of Christ is applied when the sinner is justified and new life is infused into the dead soul. This new life shows itself and grows until the person if finally glorified in Christ at the resurrection to glory.

While regeneration is an immediately complete act of imparting life to those justified, sanctification is a process that continues all through the believer's life. Justification changes his legal standing before God. Sanctification is the change that takes place as the enlivened soul takes on more and more the life which is imparted. Some progress in sanctification at a faster rate than others. But all will reach perfection only when their life here is over.

Sanctification is a work of God upon the believer. Aside from his grace to both impart life and to sustain it, we would neither be able to be, nor desire to be, holy. (1 Thessalonians 23-24, Philippians 2:13, Hebrews 13:20-21). The whole Trinity is at work to purify us morally. The Father has decreed it. The Son secured its legal grounds, gave his word and sent the Holy Spirit by which the church is sanctified to himself (Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 2:14). The application by the indwelling Holy Spirit is the primarily work that realizes that sanctification in the soul (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If you want to read more of this excellent study you'll find it here.

Wes

Carol:
Thanks for the link to Pink’s “The Doctrine of Sanctification”. It seems a little strange to me that you would select to post the link to chapter 12 only. Pink says of this chapter..”


Let me give to all who read here the link to the entire book: Sanctification

Let me also post a quote from chapter 17:..



Again, thanks for the link. This is one of Pink’s books that I do not have.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for noticing that. Thank you too Carol. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thanks.gif" alt="" /> This link gives us access to A.W. Pink's archive. What a treasure.


Wes

Carol,

Alrighty... read them both! A.W. Pink, of course, holds firmly to the doctrines which we here hold fast and which you are opposed; i.e., that sanctification is BOTH "definitive" and "progressive". Anyone who is even the slightest familiar with the writings of A.W. Pink, knows that he taught the perpetuity and binding character of God's moral law upon all men, not excluding Christians. Further, Pink strongly held to "progressive sanctification". This can be evidenced by many of his articles and books, e.g., in the book Practical Christianity and the chapter entitled, "The Doctrine of Mortification". So, in regards to Pink... I am wondering why you chose him as something that I should read. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

On the opposite side stands Bill Parker, which clearly is the antithesis of Pink's views and those held by all the Reformers, Puritans and most Calvinists today. There is no doubt where he stands and errs most miserably in his interpretation of Scripture and to be sure he avoids the myriad passages which speak of the believer's responsibility to "work out his salvation with fear and trembling", to "put off the old man", to "flee from sin", etc., etc., etc... Actually, I must ask you if you are in agreement with his extremist position?

In His Grace,