The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Lying

Is it ever ok to lie?

Here is a hypothetical situation as an example of what I am getting at by this question:

Someone comes up to you (weapon in hand) asking you where a certain someone is.
Even though you know where that person is, do you tell this person where that person is and pray that God’s will is done, or do you lie and say that you don’t know where they are?

I have heard three different responses to this in the past.

1. It is never ok to lie, even if it means telling the truth could possible mean the death of the other individual. When we lie, it indicates that we have a lack of faith in God.
2. It is ok to lie in a situation like this, because common sense tells us that if we don’t it could mean the death of a human being. We shouldn’t just trust God in a situation like this (although we should do that as well). We should do our part to make sure as best as possible no one is harmed, even if that means lying.
3. The situation isn’t black and white, on whether it is ok to lie in a situation like that or not. What is more important is where the person’s heart is at the time or their choosing to lie or not.

What do you think about this matter?

Tom

Tom,

One only need ask one simple question to arrive at the truth of this question. QUESTION: Is lying a sin? (cf. Ex. 20:16; Lev. 19:11; Ps. 15:1-3; 101:5-7; 1Tim 1:10; et al)

It is rather disheartening to see Joseph Fletcher's humanistic philosophy so ingrained within the minds of Christian men and women. As you must know, he railed against moral absolutes and made popular what is known as "Situation Ethics". One of his favorite ploys he used against Christian/biblical ethics was this theoretical question: "What would you do, as a Christian, if you were living in Nazi Germany and the Gestapo were going door-to-door killing young children by order of the Fuhrer? Your daughter is hiding in the closet when these soldiers stormed your house and demanded to know if you were hiding your daughter. Would you tell them, 'Yes! she is in the closet.' or would lie and tell them, 'No!'? According to Fletcher, true "love" would dictate that you lie and thus spare the life of your child. For Fletcher, his self-defined "love" is the basis for all morality and ethics.

John Warwick Montgomery had the opportunity to debate Fletcher on this subject many years ago and totally smashed his argument by asking, "Now, let me get this straight. You (Fletcher) believe with all your heart that this 'Situation Ethics' is right, correct? And that it is 'love' for your fellowman what is of the highest priority, right? In fact, you would do anything to get everyone to accept and practice this, would you not? . . . even lie? Because your 'ethics' allows, even encourages people to lie for the better good of others, then how can we know that what you are wanting us to believe is even true?" touché

Lying is a sin against God. There is never a situation where lying is acceptable.

In His Grace,

Some years ago I was told of a SS class of teenagers that were asked this question and they decided that there were five areas where it was okay to lie.

To save a life
In politics
So you don't hurt someone's feelings
.... memory fails me.

The point - the five areas covered about every possible life situation, in short there isn't a wrong place/time to lie.

Tom,

I used to think that it would be okay to lie in a situation like that, but Pilgrim has pointed out the fallacy of that kind of thinking. I hope I would refuse to answer, rather than lie, but I'm not sure that is what I'd actually do. (After all, I have lied plenty of times in much less dire circumstances.) Still, I feel convinced that it would be the right thing to do.

I would say you were lied to 5 different times....

Tom the answer to your question is that you defend with your life the person. This is the correct response to the SS at the door looking for the Jews. Remember greater love has no man.

Pete

Pilgrim

I'm afraid that although I would like to say that I agree with you. I hope and pray that I never find myself in a situation like that because I am not sure I wouldn't lie.

Years ago I read a book written by a missionary who was not only an evangelist, but ran an orphanage in an African country.
This missionary had taught a whole generation of youth and when civil war broke out lead by one of his former orphans, he found himself in the middle of the conflict.
He loved the people so much that he hid many innocent civilians away from this former orphan.
This former orphan asked him point blank, because he knew his former foster parent to be a man of impeccable integrity, if he knew where these people were hiding.
Reluctantly this evangelist against his conscience told him that he had no idea where they were. Fortunately his former orphan believed him and it alleviated a massacre.
However, even though his actions probably saved a lot of people, it gave him a huge feeling of guilt.
I got the feeling that if he had to do it over again, that he would have told the truth.

I guess the point in mentioning this story is because though I might say "no, it is never ok to lie”, but in actual practice, would I have the faith to follow those convictions? If I couldn't, what would be the point in saying no?

Tom

Let's take your last question first: "If I couldn't, what would be the point in saying no?" I'm a little surprised that you asked this question, Tom. What is the point in not committing ANY sin? Is it not because it is pleasing to God our Father, that we be holy and without blame before Him? The "point" is that as a Christian, we are bound to a set of truths; absolute truths which are the will of God and to which we are bound to obey and conform ourselves, despite the cry of some that they are no longer under "law". But the Lord Christ taught us that when we come to know the truth, that TRUTH will set us free. As we become more and more faithful disciples, we will obey His commandments. One of those commandments is that we shall not "bear false witness"; one aspect of which is not lying.

The first question, ". . . would I have the faith to follow those convictions?" I think, generally speaking, no one can know for sure if they will be faithful, i.e., obedient and rest in the sovereignty and providence of God. To presume that you know absolutely is nothing more than that; presumption. Doubtless, we would all HOPE that we would stand firm on our convictions. May it be that we would. However, what is often overlooked is that the advocates of a "situation ethics", one that is not based upon a set of absolute truths, but relativity which is controlled by circumstances, is that the choices are wrongly limited but two. As in most theoretical scenarios, they put forth but one choice, which is to answer the person with either a "Yes" or "No". But is this the only option open to choosing? I say not at all. One could say nothing at all, just as easily as answer "Yes" or "No".

Lastly, should one choose to lie, and it is surely a choice one makes and is therefore responsible for, what needs to be stressed is that because lying is a sin against God and in nearly every situation, against man as well, confession of that sin and repentance are required. There is the necessity of being cleansed of that lie. (1Jh 1:9, 10)

In His Grace,

Spose :-)

The sick part was this was before the lie was as prevalant as it is today - humm, maybe we know why today is as it is!

Crossed my mind today that our public schools are turning out kids that live the humanistic philosophy perfectly, can argue evolution in and out, and are avid environmentalists, yet they can't read and write.

Spose there is a plan in there somewhere - keep them away from reading and writing so you can turn their brains to mush and fill them up with drivel.

Nah, I'm not opinionate - - - - - well, much :-)

With many thanks to King James the Reformed answer has been hidden in obscurity! Ex 1:19 the midwives answer to Pharoh. The comment in the Geneva Bible was that their action was lawful, but their dissembling evil.

Good question,
I'll need to use that one in my Ethics class tomorrow. Maybe I can use it to impress my instructor.

Corrie Ten Boom wrote about this very thing in her book, "The Hiding Place."

Please forgive me if I get some of it wrong, it's late and i'm super tired, and my memory ain't what it used to be.. I think. LOL

She said that growing up, she and others were taught that "heaven rained down hell fire on liars." When the gestapo came to one of her relatives homes looking for jews, (they were hidden under the floor) one of her cousins or something, started laughing hysterically out of fear/nervousness of the gestapo, but also out of fear of lying. So she said, "they're under the floor!" The Jews were found, and arrested. Corrie was also arrested around that time. But as it turned out, she got word in prison that those jews who had been captured had escaped with the help of some friends. At least I think that's how it went. Could have been some other miraculous way, but the point was, that Jesus protected them, and honored the frightened girls commitment to Him and not lie.

There was also a situation with Corrie, where she DID lie about some food rations. She said she felt bad about that. But this is one of those areas where I agree that we must be cleansed of the lie by repentance and the faithfulness of the Lord to forgive us and cleanse us, but also to trust in His mercy. He isn't angry with US every day. The Psalms say He is angry with the SINNER every day. By that I take to mean those who are not born again.

Anyway, I guess the point is, of course it is a sin to lie under any situation/circumstance. I sure would hope too that i would remain faithful even if it's no easy.. or under the threat of harm or death. I know too that it is God who keeps us, and if we never needed forgiveness/cleansing, than Jesus would not have had Paul mention it

I sure hope i made sense LOL. I gotta GO! My eyelids are going to slam shut lol.

Michele

Pilgrim

I was hoping by the way I worded my response that you would see that I agree with you that it is never ok to lie.
As one who believes in absolutes, I can't see any escape from that.
Although I believe it is perfectly understandable that someone would lie to save lives. I don't think there is anyway from Scripture that someone could legitimately argue that it is ok to lie to save a life.

I did find it extremely helpful however when you said: "But is this the only option open to choosing? I say not at all. One could say nothing at all, just as easily as answer "Yes" or "No"."
That is something that until this point I had not heard of.

I also am quite aware of the 1John 1:9, 10, in fact when I first heard that passage mentioned in a sermon, it was extremely freeing and continues to be so, though we never want to let it become an excuse for us to sin.

Perhaps, my problem has more to do with the way I think I might be inclined to answer if I was faced with that question. But I guess I am presuming here, in fact come to think of it I probably am. One of my favorite Scripture verses is Romans 8:28 and as such I should keep in mind that this verse even covers this subject.

Anyway, if anything this conversation has provided a way to clarify my thoughts.

Tom

4Ever_Learning

Are you taking this ethics course at a Christian institution?
If not, unless you take the position that yes it is ok to lie in certain situations, you better be prepared to take a lot of flack from others. Non Christians don’t have a biblical foundation in which to draw on.

If this is in a Christian institution, I think it would be hard using Scripture to back the yes side. Though, when the emotions are taken into consideration, this could blind that fact.

I agree, and I think that is the point of the comment in the Geneva Bible. Reality, in this fallen world, is that there will be times that one's options are limited to one of several sinful choices. While commending the midwives in their disobedience to Pharaoh, it still called their lying sin.

This runs counter to Joseph Fletcher's humanistic philosophy which would say that in making the "right" choice it becomes right rather than wrong. (By extension, one could say that it is not sin in this case, but JF probably would deny sin anyway.)