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fredman #10708 Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:54 PM
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Greetings Fred,

I do not know of either the man or the book you cite here.

What I have learned in Ephesians 1 was not received from any man, but came by the teaching of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

I'm sorry, but for now, I must wait for "Joe" to answer my private message to him.

Scripture says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." James 1:5-8 NKJV

Why don't you ask our heavenly Father to open your eyes to the truth of what is there in Ephesians 1? But, you must ask in faith, knowing He will answer you, because His Word says He will. Amen.

fredman #10709 Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:16 PM
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Fredman,
I believe I've answered your duplicate question already today and this is the original you attached to CovenantInBlood, which I missed yesterday. Correct?
If you don't reply to my statement, I may miss your question, as has happened here.

#10710 Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:21 PM
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Please accept my deepest apologies for calling you Kevin. This was my error and I admit I made a mistake. I will try to be more careful in the future.

Don't worry about it. Just don't let it happen again! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad3.gif" alt="" /> . . . No, no, only kidding. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Did you open your Bible to Paul's letter to the Ephesians and read the passage I cited paying close attention to the pronouns Paul used to describe who he was talking about and who he was talking to?

If you did, then maybe you will see my point. If you did not, then you will have to wait. It would not be fair for me to ask "Joe" to answer a question and then not give him time to answer it. Nor, should I go back on my word.

I did, and it looks to me like you are misreading, if I have figured out what you are trying to imply. So I will have to wait.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
carlos #10711 Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:46 PM
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Greetings Carlos,

I didn't see your question, yesterday. Please pardon my tardiness in answering. Since I'm not a expert on all the features of this website, let me copy your question the old fashioned way with control/copy and control/paste.

"...it appears that we, Charles Hodge, Peter O'brien, John Calvin, William Hendrisksen, and the vast number of other trained exegetes have been wrong, as it appears in your view."

To His glory, God hides things. Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes, but later revealed the meanings of the parables to His disciples. Many of His parables are left unexplained in Scripture.

God chooses to reveal His secrets to whomever He pleases, whenever He pleases and however He pleases.

I can't answer your question as to why God did not reveal His teachings to the men you mentioned and can only suggest you search the Scriptures as the ancient Bereans did.

One place I have found is Acts 7:35, which I think may explain why God chose Moses.

"This Moses whom they rejected saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge?' is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliver by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush." NKJV

My understanding of this passage is that God chose Moses, because He knew Moses would be rejected. Why? For His glory! Another reason God chose Moses was because Moses was humble. What is my reason for thinking this? Read Isaiah 66:2

I know very little about the men you have mentioned. Were they humble, were they rejected?

If not, perhaps these reasons help explain why God chose to not enlighten them. I do know the in-dwelling Holy Spirit teaches us by discernment. I have already explained elsewhere on the board (see Conditional Perseverance) that the result of this teaching is what is called "spiritual maturity" or "perfecting the saints." We receive this teaching from the Holy Spirit as a result of our persevering through various trials of our faith (James 1:3,4). Without this teaching from the Holy Spirit, we are immature Christians aka "little children."
Thus, there are two types of believers. 1) Those who know the truth, aka those in light and 2) those who do not know the truth, aka those in darkness.
Perhaps those men you mentioned did not persevere through trials of their faith and therefore kept themselves in darkness.
Again, I don't know very much about these men, so I cannot say for sure this is the reason why God did not reveal the teaching to them.
Have you ever considered the possibility that God tried to teach them information by sending someone to them, but they rejected the messenger God sent?
Perhaps they rejected this messenger because he didn't teach as they taught, or didn't belong to the church they belonged to. Perhaps a false prophet came before and convinced them incorrect doctrine was true and they believed the false prophet.
I believe what I have described to you (how we receive understanding) is how John Bunyan was able to know all he knew about God, without having any worldly education. I think there's still a website for John Bunyan at www.johnbunyan.org or you can research him at your local library.
Are you aware that John Bunyan's book 'Pilgrim's Progress' is the second most sold book in the world behind the Bible? I've never read the book, perhaps you have and can give some further insight.
I pray this has helped you understand and hope I have answered your questions to your satisfaction.

#10712 Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:06 PM
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God chooses to reveal His secrets to whomever He pleases, whenever He pleases and however He pleases.
I am enthralled that you made this statement because God has revealed to me the truth about this passage and the Holy Spirit has taught me its true meaning. Further, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that you are a false teacher and the truth has been hidden from you. I guess that settles that conundrum, doesn't it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His marvelous grace,


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#10713 Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:22 AM
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I'm sorry, but for now, I must wait for "Joe" to answer my private message to him.

(Fred) well, I wish joe would come on and get the lead out about answering your email, because we are all dying to know just how the pronouns of Ephesians 1 affect the understanding of the doctrine of irresistible grace.

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Why don't you ask our heavenly Father to open your eyes to the truth of what is there in Ephesians 1? But, you must ask in faith, knowing He will answer you, because His Word says He will.

(Fred) I have asked my heavenly father if irresistible grace is true, and he affirm it is with his word. So, if you are claiming that irresistible grace as Calvinism teaches is unbiblical, then one of us had a lying spirit deceive us about the doctrine. That rather concerns me.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
fredman #10714 Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:18 AM
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Brother Fred,

You asked Him and He answered you, but it doesn't conflict with what I wrote to Tom. You must start at the beginning of a conversation to understand completely someone's meaning. Here's what I wrote to Tom:

"Irresistible grace" is a term which applies only to the pre-determined elect of God. Those predestined were chosen before God created the world and they are the apostles and prophets. They're also the "few" when Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen."

"Irresistible grace" does not apply to the many who are called unto salvation. For them, they can resist the calling of the Holy Spirit, the witnessing of believers and the testimony of Scripture.

This doctrine is more like what your friend is talking about when he says he does not agree with your doctrine.

Since both doctrines are correct, you won't be able to convince your friend he's wrong and he won't be able to convince you to change either. This also explains why Calvinists and Arminian Methodists have disagreed over this doctrine for centuries. Neither understood they both were partially right.



So, Brother:
If you ask God in faith, He will answer you, but make sure you're asking Him the right question, or you may still be confused.

#10715 Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:34 AM
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1Saved,
If I am reading you correctly, you are just making a distinction between what would be termed an effectual call and a general call. The effectual call is given to all of God's elect and they will come to him in salvation. A general call is given to all men, as you note, but that call does not give salvation to all men. All men hear a general call, those elect from the larger group of "all men" will respond to the call, because attending that general call is God's effectual grace that changes the heart.

I think you are confusing the idea of God's general call with his saving grace. The two are to remain separate. When the Bible speaks of saving grace it is applied to those elect who then willfully come to God in salvation. That is why the Calvinists term it "irresistible." Those chosen for election cannot, nor will not, reject it. However, not all men receieve such grace so as to resist it as you suggest. I believe that is where we dissent from your understanding of grace. Arminianism have taught what is called prevenient grace; a grace given to all men that may or may not result in salvation depending upon the person's autonomous response of the will. That is a concept totally foreign from the Bible and why it is inaccurate to claim that Methodists are partially right; they are not, and in fact teach serious error with their notions of grace.

(addendum) I didn't catch your closing line the first time I posted. I believe I did ask God the right question with genuine faith and he answered me clearly from his word. Why would I still be confused about this? Why are you not?

Fred

Last edited by fredman; Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:38 AM.

"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
fredman #10716 Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:11 AM
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Brother Fred,

I'm saying both Calvin and Arminius were each partially correct. Neither was completely correct.

The proof is in Scripture in Ephesians 1. I have given enough information about this to "Joe" so he can determine the truth of what I'm saying. I'm waiting for his answer to my question.

I have given you information as well, but you have not discerned the truth of my words or you have not asked the right questions of God in faith.

Either discernment through the teaching of the Holy Spirit or asking God in faith is the way to receive God's truth. You cannot learn God's truth by studying theology in divinity school or by attending seminary. He does not teach us in this manner. I know this because the Bible confirms this is the truth.

I have directed you to the example of John Bunyan for what I'm talking about, but you continually want to quote Calvinist Bible teachers who may or may not have learned by discernment or by asking God in faith.

I don't know much about the Bible teachers you want to follow, including John Calvin, but did ANY of them say they received their teaching by discernment only as John Bunyan. Or did they all go to college for their learning?

#10717 Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:53 AM
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I'm saying both Calvin and Arminius were each partially correct. Neither was completely correct.

(Fred) Both were not completely correct in regards to what exactly? Predestination? Grace? Faith? Arminius was heavily influenced by Jesuit Catholic theology that is Platonic in nature. I would be curious to know what he was correct about.
I don't consider myself to be a follower of Calvin, but his understanding of salvation as is encapsulated in the 5 points that bear his name I believe is correct, because the proper study of God's word yields that conclusion. Appealing to mystical notions of "God's spirit told me" does not establish the truth in this matter. The Bible is given to us for a reason: To know the mind of God. We are called to study to show ourselves approved unto God.

Quote
Either discernment through the teaching of the Holy Spirit or asking God in faith is the way to receive God's truth. You cannot learn God's truth by studying theology in divinity school or by attending seminary. He does not teach us in this manner.

(Fred) What role does the Bible play in discerning God's truth? I believe I have asked God in faith, just as you say I should, and he has revealed to me that the 5 Points of Calvinism are absolutely correct. Am I mistaken about this? Why or why not?

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I know this because the Bible confirms this is the truth

(Fred) Where does the Bible teach that we are to believe God apart from the plain teaching of his word? Would the spirit of God affirm something to a person that is NOT taught in the Bible?

Quote
I have directed you to the example of John Bunyan for what I'm talking about, but you continually want to quote Calvinist Bible teachers who may or may not have learned by discernment or by asking God in faith.

(Fred) Ummm...You do realize that John Bunyan was a Calvinist, correct? Bunyan was a Calvinistic Bible teacher. He was baptist, but a Calvinist. I hope you aren't pulling a Dave Hunt on us here.

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I don't know much about the Bible teachers you want to follow, including John Calvin, but did ANY of them say they received their teaching by discernment only as John Bunyan. Or did they all go to college for their learning?

(Fred) Bunyan was an avid reader of all of his contemporaries who happen to be Calvinists, and he affirmed their views of saving faith in all of his written works. Just for the record, Calvin didn't go to college to learn his theology; he went to be a lawyer, then a RCC priest. When God showed him the truth (by imparting to him saving faith) he abandoned both paths and became, for the most part, a self-taught protestant theologian that you can read now. Your history of both Bunyan and Calvin is just plain wrong. To put this in the arena that colleges and seminaries corrupt Christians and those who don't go to such institutions are more spiritual is utterly ridiculous, not to mention elitist.


Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
fredman #10718 Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:00 PM
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Brother Fred,

One step at a time. Have patience with me. You are not the only one asking me questions and to whom I am trying to respond as best as I can. Remember, we are brothers, Fred.

To answer most of these questions, I'd have to keep going over what I've said before, because the answer to most of your questions has to do with the correct exegesis of Ephesians 1.

My source for John Bunyan is the 'World Book Encyclopedia', which says, "In 1653 he joined a non-conformist church in Bedford and soon began to preach there. After the death of his first wife in 1656, Bunyan began to study the Bible. He was arrested four years later for preaching without a license and was put in jail in Bedford.
Bunyan was kept in prison for twelve years while he supported his family by making shoelaces. In his spare time he wrote religious books. After his release in 1672, he was appointed pastor of the Baptist Church in Bedford, but was again imprisoned for a short time. He wrote 'Pilgrim's Progress' during his second term in prison."

I believe the life of John Bunyan is evidence of someone receiving teaching by discernment through the Holy Spirit, as the result of perseverance through trials of his faith.

The fact he was put in prison for 12 years for preaching and then imprisoned again, convinces me Bunyan "persevered through trials of his faith." I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion - do you?

If he did not receive the teaching by discernment, where did it come from, since he was in prison at the time he wrote his religious books? Also, Bunyan said it came by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. What reason do you have to think your brother, John Bunyan, was bearing false witness?

If he were lying about this issue, where did his doctrine come from, since by breaking 1 of the 10 commandments he would not have received the Holy Spirit to teach him and no mature Christian to train him while he was in prison?

Fred, where in Scripture does it say you are to go to college to get an education about God? This does not mean you cannot get correct doctrine from a mature Christian. I have already told you I got much of my training listening every day to Dr. MacArthur, reading his books, listening to his tapes and reading the books of other great Bible teachers like Dr. James M. Boice and Dr. Charles Feinberg.

However, the Holy Spirit CONFIRMS whether the training (which could be from an outside source such as a sermon, book, tape, etc,) you receive is correct or not -- at His own will, whenever He wishes and in whatever manner He wishes. Training is not the same as doctrine and I've already provided the definition of doctrine to you.

The Holy Spirit also CONFIRMS the truthfulness of the Word of God, teaches its meaning and provides its significance to believers whenever and however, He chooses.

If you go to www.johnbunyan.org and read what's there, you'll discover that John Bunyan stated he had very little education and he had forgotten nearly everything he had learned in school anyway.

I don't doubt you're correct about Bunyan going to college or reading his contempories' writings, but did he go to college and read those writings before or after he wrote his religious books and 'Pilgrims Progress'?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

#10719 Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:40 PM
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If he were lying about this issue, where did his doctrine come from, since by breaking 1 of the 10 commandments he would not have received the Holy Spirit to teach him . . .
This is simply ludicrous! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> From what biblical text(s) do you find this astounding statement taught? There is not ONE solitary believer, from Adam until the last who hasn't and will continue to break many of the 10 Commandments during their earthly life. If what you say is true, then no one has been, is or will be saved. For the very first thing that happens to a sinner in salvation is the work and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In His Grace,


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Pilgrim #10720 Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:57 PM
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Pilgrim,

Show me when John Bunyan ever admitted he lied (bore false witness) and then repented, and you've proven your point.

Show me when anyone ever broke one of the ten commandments, did not repent, but was still saved, and you've proven your point.

A number of people think King David's and John Calvin's situations are similar. The difference is David admitted his guilt and repented. There has been no testimony of John Calvin ever openly admitting "sanctioning the burning of Servetus", AND later repenting his sin AND asking for forgiveness. Even if he did, it was definitely not prior to him writing his theology books on doctrine.

Nor do I know of any Calvinists openly admitting they are/were wrong, if they previously agreed with the burning of Servetus, but now repent their sin.

Perhaps we need an 'Alliance of Confessing Calvinists', who now admit the burning of Servetus was wrong. Does such a group exist?

Some try to compare the apostle Paul to John Calvin. Again, Paul repented before his writing Scripture and Calvin did not repent before writing his theology.

Forgiveness does not come without repentence. God hates sin, but He is merciful and forgiving to those who repent their sin.

If you want your sins forgiven, you must repent them and admit you are wrong. This applies to all sin. There are no exceptions to this rule.

I'm very surprised you think God might make some exception for John Calvin or why you would choose to defend him in this manner.

The issue is, "Did John Calvin sanction the burning of Michael Servetus?" The issue is not, "John Calvin sanctioned the burning of Servetus. Who cares, since David killed Uriah and Paul helped stone Steven."

We could make that the issue for discussion, IF you now agree Calvin probably sanctioned the burning of Servetus.

That way you won't have any more testimony brought out about Calvin's character. As long as you don't agree, I encourage more testimony from other RELIABLE sources. This is not a witch hunt. So far, the only witness testimony posted has been from Calvinists. Please keep it that way.

#10721 Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:14 PM
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The issue is, "Did John Calvin sanction the burning of Michael Servetus?" The issue is not, "John Calvin sanctioned the burning of Servetus. Who cares, since David killed Uriah and Paul helped stone Steven."
No sir, this is NOT the issue, for you have an evil agenda you are promoting which you have clearly stated on several occasions. The fact that Michael Servetus was found guilty in a court of law, a court which John Calvin had no place, and then executed according to that country's law, of which John Calvin had no actual part, relieves John Calvin of your deceitful charges against him, that he committed some gross sin because he agreed that Servetus got a fair trial and received a just punishment for his sin, even though he tried to change the method of his execution to something other than burning at the stake.

The issue YOU are trying to force upon us is whether or not John Calvin, by agreeing to the execution, demonstrated "bad fruit", which you have defined in unbiblical and indefensible terms. And if that be true, according to your fallacious definition, then the Holy Spirit did not dwell within him and further that anything he wrote from that point on is spurious and should be rejected out of hand. Not only is your position unwarranted, it is scandalous and wicked at its core.

I charge you with being duplicitous and being in league with the Accuser of the brethren. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />

What you need most is not to hear if John Calvin ever repented of some alleged sin but deliverance of this wickedness which controls your spirit.


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Pilgrim #10722 Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:29 AM
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Pilgrim,

"...because he agreed that Servetus got a fair trial and received a just punishment for his sin, even though he tried to change the method of his execution to something other than burning at the stake."

Do you realize you just admitted Calvin consented to the death of Michael Servetus? After just a couple of days of discussion you have now discovered and admitted to the truth, i.e. the article posted on your website by Dr. Horton was wrong - Calvin "agreed" to the death of Servetus.

You have now ended the issue of, "Did Calvin sanction the death of Servetus?" Now the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned, because the case has been determined.

By your own words, you have admitted Calvin DID agree to the death of Servetus. Defense attorney Pilgrim has now plead "guilty as charged" for his client, John Calvin. Case closed!

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