The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Man-Centered vs God-Centered

Dear Steve,<br><br>"Correct, it is not forced. God changes the will, so that we gladly believe. The caricature of Calvinism is that God takes people AGAINST their will, and that he damns people against their will (i.e. they really wanted to come to God, but He wouldn't let them). This is not so! Man by nature hates God. Only by God changing their will can man come to Him, and that is what He does! Once grace is given, man comes to Him...irresistably. This is far from being forced kicking and screaming against their will!"<br><br>I know that aspect of Calvinism, I say 'force' in the loosest sense, because if man has no choice in the matter, it is effectively forced.<br><br>There is nothing in scripture to indicate that God draws people irresistably, as I pointed out from Luke 13:34.<br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Dear Josh,<br><br>John Reisinger writes... "God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Hyper-Calvinism denies the necessity of human action, and Arminianism denies the true nature of the Divine action. The Bible clearly sets forth both the divine and human essential in God's plan of salvation. This is not to say, as Arminianism and JoshT state, "God's part is to freely provide salvation for all men, and man's part is to become willing to accept it." This is not what we said above, nor is it what the Bible teaches.<br><br>To speak of God's part in salvation as only being one of providing forgiveness and man's part as being willing to accept it is to ignore both the Father's work of election and the Spirit's work of regeneration. This not only makes man a full partner with God in the work of salvation, it credits man with playing the decisive roll in the deal.<br><br>How dreadful, and ridiculous, to give Christ the glory for His work on the cross, and then give sinners the credit for the Father's work in eternity (election) and the Spirit's work in our hearts (regeneration). It does great dishonor to the Sovereign Spirit to say, "The Holy Spirit will perform His miraculous work of quickening you unto life as soon as you give Him your permission." That's like standing in a graveyard saying to the dead people, "I will give you life and raise you up from the grave if you will only take the first step of faith and ask me to do it." What a denial of the sinner's total spiritual inability. Amazing!<br><br>Please note a few texts of Scripture that dogmatically state some things that a lost man cannot do:<br><br>Man cannot see - until he first be born again. John 3:3.<br><br>Man cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. I Cor. 2:14.<br><br>Man cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. John 6:44,45.<br><br>God's grace not only provides salvation, but His power also gives us the ability to both desire and receive it. He works in us both to will and to do. His working in us to will is the new birth, and, I say again, this work of regeneration is totally the work of the Holy Spirit."<br><br>Here are a couple of links for you to study further God’s Part and Man’s Part in Salvation as well as Is Calvinism Inconsistent with Free Will? I hope you'll read these studies and ponder why you choose to deny what the Scriptures teach and set up a man-centered theology that requires man to do what only God can do.<br><br>FURTHER SCRIPTURE PROOF <br><br>Prov. 16:9: A man's heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps. <br><br>Jer. 10:23: 0 Jehovah, I know that the way of man is in himself; it is not in man that walked to direct his steps. <br><br>Ex. 12:36: And Jehovah gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. <br><br>Ezra 6:22: For Jehovah had made them joyful, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God (rebuilding the temple). <br><br>Ezra 7:6: And the king (Artaxerxes) granted him (Ezra) all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah his God upon him. <br><br>Is. 44:28: (Jehovah) that saith of Cyrus (the heathen king of Persia), He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jeru- salem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. <br><br>Rev. 17:17: (Concerning the wicked it is said) God did put in their hearts to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished. <br><br>I Sam. 2:25: They (Eli's sons) harkened not unto the voice of their father, because Jehovah was minded to slay them. <br><br>I Kings 12:11, 15: And now whereas my father (Solomon) did lade you with a heavy yoke, I (Rehoboam) will add to your yoke; my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions ... So the king harkened not unto the people; for it was a thing brought about of Jehovah. <br><br>II Sam. 17:14: And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The Counsel of Hushai is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For Jehovah had ordained to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that Jehovah might bring evil upon Absalom . <br><br><br><br>Wes<br><br>

Dear Josh,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]There is nothing in scripture to indicate that God draws people irresistably, as I pointed out from Luke 13:34.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Irresistible Grace is also called Effectual Calling.<br> <br>[color:blue]1. Though the gospel call is extended without exception and without distinction to all men, only those who are chosen by God for salvation will come to faith. This special call is effectual when issued by the Holy Spirit. Select passages declare that salvation is the work of the Spirit as well as the Father and the Son.</font color=blue><br> <br>Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.<br><br>1 Corinthians 2:10-14 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.<br><br>1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.<br><br>1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.<br><br>2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.<br><br>2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.<br><br>2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.<br><br>1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.<br><br>[color:blue]2. In the act of regeneration spiritual life is bestowed and souls are made children of God. This is the new birth. A new heart, a new mind, and a new will reveal a new nature. All of this is produced by the power and grace of God, apart from and independent of the will of man.</font color=blue><br><br>John 1:12,13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.<br><br>John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. <br><br>Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;<br><br>1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,<br><br>1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.<br><br>1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.<br><br>[color:blue]3. By the power of the Holy Spirit, the sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, is given a new nature which causes him to want to walk in the ways of God and obey His laws. Because of Christ a person can be made a new creation. </font color=blue><br><br>Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.<br><br>Ezekiel 36:26,27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.<br><br>Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor un-circumcision, but a new creature.<br><br>Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.<br><br>2 Corinthians 5:17, 18 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;<br><br>[color:blue]4. It is the Spirit who makes the soul live.</font color=blue><br><br>John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.<br><br>Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;<br><br>Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)<br><br>Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the un-circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;<br><br>[color:blue]5. Because a person is a child of God the Holy Spirit reveals the secrets of the kingdom.</font color=blue><br><br>Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.<br><br>Matthew 11:26, 27 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.<br><br>Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.<br><br>Matthew 13:10,11,16 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.<br><br>Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.<br><br>Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father, which is in heaven.<br><br>John 6:37,44,45,64,65 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.<br><br>1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. <br><br>Ephesians 1:17, 18 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, <br><br>John 10:3-6, 16, 26-29 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. [Later, after the resurrection, the Holy Spirit brought these same truths back to their remembrance and they understood.]… 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd….26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. <br><br>[color:blue]6. What God commands of the sinner He provides. God commands the sinner to have faith in His Son and to repent. But the natural man cannot do these things. Therefore, for those who will be saved, God sovereignly bestows the gifts of grace. </font color=blue><br><br>Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. <br><br>Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.<br><br>Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.<br><br>Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.<br><br>Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:<br><br>Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.<br><br>Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;<br><br>2 Timothy 2:25, 26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.<br><br>[color:blue]7. In addition to the general call to salvation which goes to all mankind, the special and effectual call of the gospel is applied to individuals resulting in conversion.</font color=blue><br><br>Romans 1:6, 7 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.<br><br>Romans 8:30 Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called them he also justified: and whom he justified them he also glorified.<br><br>Romans 9:23, 24 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?<br><br>1 Corinthians 1:1,2,9, 23-31 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: …9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. …23-31 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. <br><br>Galatians 1:15, 16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:<br><br>Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;<br><br>2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,<br><br>Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.<br><br>Jude 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:<br><br>1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;<br><br>1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:<br><br>1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.<br><br>2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:<br><br>Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.<br><br>[color:blue]8.The saving of the soul is accomplished only by the power of the omnipotent and almighty God.</font color=blue><br><br>Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.<br><br>John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.<br><br>John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.<br><br>Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.<br><br>1 Corinthians 3:6,7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? <br><br>Philippians 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. <br><br>James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.<br><br>1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.<br><br> <br>Wes<br>

Josh:<br><br>On that same day, some Pharisees came, saying to him, "Get out of here, and go away, for Herod wants to kill you." He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I complete my mission. Nevertheless I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the next day, for it can't be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.' "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, like a hen gathers her own brood under her wings, and you refused! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'" (Luke 13:31-35)<br><br>Please end this sophistry it is obvious that you don't understand the Word of God, not regarding grace and certainly not regarding this prophecy of Christ pronounced upon Jerusalem. You need to repent, and come to salvation. Once you do this you will be able to understand the Word of God.<br><br>

Yes we are called to strive through the narrow gate, but a truly saved person is not going to fall away.

The real dilemma is thus...<br><br>Just because God tells man to do something, does it mean man can? Does God give set standards we cannot accomplish?<br><br>I am wondering, because the arminian theology must say "no". Also, where did any of those scriptural passages say man can?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

If you look at Romans chapter 11, Paul presents the real possibility of being cut off for not abiding in God's goodness. The context clearly shows that he is speaking of salvation, and the possibility is real.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Dear William,<br><br>Man cannot fulfill God's holy and perfect standard in his own power. But when the Holy Spirit lives in us, he gives life to our mortal bodies (that is to say, our lives can be pure and holy before God). I hear people often say, "well, we all sin every day" as if we had no choice in the matter. Hogwash. There is no temptation that befalls us that God does not give us a way to escape from (1 Corinthians 10:13). For being alive in Christ, we are dead to sin; how then can we live any longer in it (Romans 6:2)?<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I hear people often say, "well, we all sin every day" as if we had no choice in the matter. Hogwash. There is no temptation that befalls us that God does not give us a way to escape from (1 Corinthians 10:13). For being alive in Christ, we are dead to sin; how then can we live any longer in it (Romans 6:2)?</font><hr></blockquote><p>So, am I understanding you right, that in addition to your other spurious views you also believe in "Perfectionism"? . . . that is, it is possible for an individual to live a perfectly righteous life (100% sinless) after the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them? If so, why is it that not even one of the Apostles who had a full measure of the Spirit's influence and power even came close to a sinless life.<blockquote>1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I <span style="background-color:yellow;">am</span> (not was) chief.</blockquote>In His Grace,

JoshT,<br><br>this passage already been dealt by others in this forum. See Fred's latest response to you...in "revelation 22 contradicts..." thread..<br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos

Once again, your reply doesn't answer the question. Allow me to ask it again.......<br><br>Just because God tells man to do something, does it mean man can? <br><br>Does God set standards we cannot accomplish?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william<br>

Dear William,<br><br>I don't think you read my reply very carefully. How did that not answer your questions?<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Dear Prestor John,<br><br>This prophecy is an obvious indicator that men sometimes act contrary to God's will. What makes you a judge of my salvation anyway? I thought that such was the Lord's responsibility.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

Dear Wesley,<br><br>I do know that God puts things into people's minds, hardens their hearts, and guides their steps. This does not preclude the fact that men can still resist God's will. Luke 7:30 clearly states that some rejected God's counsel in not being baptized to repentance:<br><br>"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."<br><br>Secondly, there is no indication that man must be 'regenerated' before he can hear the God that calls even the dead, for John 5:25 says,<br><br>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. "<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh<br><br>

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."<br>How does one get the ears to hear and another not? Obviously this doesn't mean those who are deaf vs. those who can hear. So, can a unregenerated person really "hear" the words of Christ? Can an unregenerated person, i.e. a dead person, hear? <br><br>As for Luke 7:30, I'm still not sure what this proves. God commanded them to be baptized. Did God really desire and wish they were baptized? Is that what this says? I don't believe it is.<br><br>Steve C