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1saved,

Once again you have provided a source of humour by your comments. Why would you reply upon the definition of "Trinity" as found in a pagan, dictionary as opposed to the official declarations of the Church which have been held for centuries, and defended against all forms of heretical teachings? Perhaps you haven't read the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds? Regardless, I have reproduced them for your enlightenment below:

The Nicene Creed


This creed was first formulated at the First Ecumenical Council, held at Nicea, located in what is now Turkey, in 325, as a response to the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ. It was revised at the Second Ecumenical Council, held at Constantinople in 381 as a response to the Macedonian or Pneumatomachian heresy, which denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. The Western church later made a few additional changes which were not accepted in the Eastern church. The Western version is given here, but the differences between the versions are not shown. It states the doctrine of the Trinity.

Quote
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;



And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.



And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.



AMEN.




The Athanasian Creed


This creed is attributed to Athanasius, the fourth century bishop of Alexandria who was the strongest defender at that time of the doctrines of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. However, It seems to have come from the Western church and to have been an anonymous work with its present form dating no earlier than the ninth century. It defines the doctrines of the Trinity and the nature of Christ in very concise language.

Quote
Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [universal] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.



Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.



But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.



This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim,

I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This, I call the 'Godhead' and I think it's synomynous with 'Trinity.'

I do not deny the deity of Jesus nor do I deny the deity of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

Define 'baptism', and I'll tell you whether or not I agree 'baptism' can cause a remission of sin.

Yes, I agree there is one baptism for the remission of sin. Which is, the 'baptism of fire' by the Holy Spirit; first given by the grace of God to us at Pentecost, but given by the grace of God to all believers for the remission of sin.

I fail to see your point and how have you decided my 'Funk & Wagnall's Standard College Dictionary' is pagan, i.e. 1) One who is neither a Christian, a Jew, nor a Moslem; a heathen. 2) In early Christian use, an idol worshipper. 3) An irreligious person.

Perhaps you're referring to my 'Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary' as being pagan, i.e. "Pagan - a follower of a false god or a heathen religion; one who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods. After the return from Captivity, Ezra and Nehemiah carried on a vigorous campaign against the practice of marriage between Israelites and the pagan women of the land (Ezra 10:2, 10-18, 44; Neh. 13:26-27, 30).

I fail to notice any real difference in definitions between the two dictionaries, either for the words 'Trinity' and 'Godhead' or for the word 'pagan.'

Please provide the source the writers of the Nicean Creed used to define the words they used to write the creed.

As for the Athanasian Creed, please define 'touching' in this phrase, "equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood."

My Bible dictionary does not define the word 'touching.' My Funk & Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary has 22 definitions for the verb 'touch.' My Webster's has 29 definitions for the verb 'touch.' My American Heritage Dictionary has 20 definitions for the verb 'touch.'

The American Heritage Dictionary says this about 'touching' "adj. Eliciting a tender reaction. -prep. Archaic. Concerning, about." These two definitions for 'touching' are essentially echoed in the other two dictionaries.

My question is, "Do I assume the word 'touching' is being used as a verb, or an adjective, or as a preposition in the phrase "equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood?

Since you don't know for sure who wrote this creed nor when it was written, I won't bother to ask you to provide the source they used to define the words they used to write the creed.

Furthermore, they did not write their creeds in English. Who translated the creeds into English? What proof do you have the creeds were translated correctly?

In faith, I believe God has providentially given me His Word in a language I can understand. If that's not true, I'm lost, since I can't read Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. I have, however, received the Holy Spirit of God Who testifies to me. He testifies which Bible translations of Scripture are better or more suitable for the need I have.

Most often I use the NKJV, but not always. I trust the in-dwelling Holy Spirit to guide me through the process of discerning the meaning and significance of God's Word.

This does NOT in any way mean I don't agree with what was written in either creed you provided. I may or may not agree as confirmed to me by the power of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit of God, Who knows all things. He tells me what to believe and I trust His judgment implicitly. This is what FAITH is.

Faith is belief and trust in God as revealed in Scripture or by direct revelation from God. Thus, Abraham had faith in God although Scripture was not yet written. Therefore, it cannot be said that faith is only believing in the written Word of God.

Yet, the testimony of the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches us the meaning of Scripture and the significance of Scripture in our lives.

Thus, one person will get a different significance from Scripture than someone else my get even though the meaning of the Scripture is the same. Therefore, one person may be strengthened by the Word, while another is convicted by the same Word and a third is corrected by the same Word.

Jesus said, "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 NKJV

Why would Jesus question whether faith could be found anywhere on the earth when He returns? Don't all churches claim to have faith? The problem is that you have reckless faith. You believe in your church doctrines, creeds, councils, etc. Instead, we should ALL be believing in the testimony of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

I don't know how to make it more clear to you than I already have. Scripture does not support some of your positions. You keep wanting to tell me your church doctrine is right, but everytime I show you where it is wrong and say I learned this from the Holy Spirit, you question my motives.

I'm telling you what the in-dwelling Holy Spirit testifies to me is true. It sometimes is different than your church doctrine. Are you claiming the Holy Spirit has lied to me? Are you saying I, a professing Christian, am a liar? If so, then prove it. If you believe I'm in error, show me my error in SCRIPTURE.

I have told you many, many times I will not accept ANY church doctrine, creed, council, statement of faith, etc. as having ANY AUTHORITY.

You're wasting your time posting 'traps' to see if I'm lying. I'M NOT LYING. I trust the Holy Spirit to tell me the truth. I know He has always told me the truth in the past. I know He is now always telling me the truth in the present. I believe He will continue to always tell me the truth in the future.

Why would I doubt God? Why would I doubt His Word? God has never given me any reason to doubt Him. He has always answered any questions I have asked in faith, exactly as written in Scripture (James 1:5-8). He does not keep me waiting for an answer either. How He tells me is not always the same, either.

If you don't believe me - go ask fredman. He knows exactly what I'm talking about, as does Dr. John MacArthur.

Your problem is you have taken God's grace for granted. I say this about you, because you almost never talk about faith, except your 'reckless faith' in believing Reformed Calvinist church doctrine without any reservation.

This is not to say ALL Reformed Calvinists are/were without faith. I have already said I greatly admire Dr. James M. Boice who was chairman of the board of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. He was a man of faith. But, I do not agree with EVERYTHING Dr. Boice taught. When he taught in error, I tried to show him his mistakes as well.

You believe you were pre-destined to salvation, but where is there any proof of that in how you treat a Christian, let alone how you treat your enemies? Examine yourself and if you're honest with yourself, you'll know what I'm saying is true.

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George,

I really think that you have overstayed your welcome here and have exhibited yourself to be a very misguided, misinformed, and biblically ignorant man at best and a deceiver and accuser of the brethren at worst. At this point it really doesn't make much difference as you have so many times violated the stated Guidelines for being a member of this Board.

I am also sure that there are many here who are wondering why the Staff has waited so long to remove you. But we do like to display a measure of patience to all with the hopes that the Spirit of God will enlighten the minds of those who are lost and/or in error and come to the knowledge of the truth once delivered unto the saints.

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simul iustus et peccator

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Persnickety Presbyterian
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Quote
Again, since we do not know exactly what was in the letter Servetus sent to Calvin, how do we know Servetus said anything contradicting Scripture? For all we know or Calvin knew, Servetus may have repented! Although I'm quite sure he (Servetus) would have used that defense at his trial in Geneva, if given the chance.

I love this. Perfectly willing defend the heretic, but a man whose faith in God was evident is dismissed because of one "bad fruit"!

Quote
What cause did Calvin have for being angry with Servetus, if Calvin never read the letter it is alleged Servetus sent to him?

Servetus was a heretic who insisted upon his false teachings and who decried all others as worshipping God falsely.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Quote
As for the Athanasian Creed, please define 'touching' in this phrase, "equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood."

"Touching," in this context (and it is rather clear), means "related to." Thus, "equal to the father as related to His Godhead, inferior to the Father as related to His Manhood."

Quote
I don't know how to make it more clear to you than I already have. Scripture does not support some of your positions. You keep wanting to tell me your church doctrine is right, but everytime I show you where it is wrong and say I learned this from the Holy Spirit, you question my motives.

You haven't shown anything to anyone, except that you have some strange need to show that Calvin was not indwelt and that Bunyan was uneducated and not a Calvinist. You have not shown any doctrine held here to be wrong based on the Scriptures.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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