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#12623 Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:57 AM
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I would like the scriptural support for the election of all infants who die in infancy, please?

#12624 Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:59 AM
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Perhaps a study of the Scripture passages covering the WCF Chapter 10 section 3 might start you off on the right direction. As far as all who are elect, that is hidden in the counsels of God. Those that die in infancy, we trust God, as in all things. Perhaps the hardest thing we struggle with when this happens, is that we tend to look on the newborn as "innocent" forgetting the state in which we are born. From personal experience (living through two miscarriages with my wife), it is sorrowful to lose an infant and can become a great struggle, but our trust must remain (John 6:68 - where else can I go?)

Acts 2:39 (NKJV)
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (my underline)

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12

Just as a matter of curiosity, what prompted the question? We might as well ask if there are Scripture passages that allow us to identify the elect with 100% certainty while here on earth.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />


In Christ,
-C-

#12625 Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:59 PM
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I think you and I will be agreeing here. I asked because some people in the other thread concerning this supported this idea. I was wondering where their view was expressed in scripture.


God bless,

william

#12626 Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:11 AM
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William, here's what scripture I could find :

























Hope that helps <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

#12627 Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:51 PM
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I would like the scriptural support for the election of all infants who die in infancy, please?

Scripture does not say categorically that all who die in infancy are elect. But, there is a passage which I think gives at least a strong indication that it is so.

Luke 18:15-17-- Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. but Jesus said, [color:"red"]"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."[/color]

When an infant dies how will he or she come before God? Will they come as anything other than a little child?

People can call this 'sentimental' or seeking 'warm fuzzies' if they like, but to me, the words of our Lord Jesus are quite a bit more than that. Does the passage say that absolutely without a doubt all who die in infancy are elect? No, but it does speak strongly enough to offer great comfort and hope in the event of a child's death.

I'm very grateful that the Lord recorded this for us. I can not tell anyone that I know absolutely for sure who is in heaven and who isn't. But I would gladly share this passage with non-believing parents who had lost a little one. God might very well use this portion of His Word to bring them to repentance. Or, I suppose I could take the point of view that seems to be so prevalent in the other thread on this subject, and just gleefully tell them that their children were currently crawling about the firey floors of hell--even though there is not a dab of Scripture to warrant such a cold attitude.

Stucco

Stucco #12628 Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:02 PM
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Or, I suppose I could take the point of view that seems to be so prevalent in the other thread on this subject, and just gleefully tell them that their children were currently crawling about the firey floors of hell--even though there is not a dab of Scripture to warrant such a cold attitude.
Could you provide some quotes, please?

Stucco #12629 Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:26 PM
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Mark,
I know this is an emotional subject. Can you still respect others who differ with you on this subject and not assign motives to them for their conviction to not go beyond what Scripture reveals?
We can all agree on this from the WCF Chapter 10. Maybe we should leave it here.
Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.

#12630 Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:33 PM
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averagefellar said:
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Or, I suppose I could take the point of view that seems to be so prevalent in the other thread on this subject, and just gleefully tell them that their children were currently crawling about the firey floors of hell--even though there is not a dab of Scripture to warrant such a cold attitude.
Could you provide some quotes, please?


Yes I could, but no I won't. Had I wanted to engage certain individuals in that 11 page pile up, I would have done it in that thread. If any, or all who participated in that thread feel like my comments do not pertain to them, then they don't have anything to worry about, do they?

Stucco #12631 Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:31 AM
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Stucco

I do not see that passage as scriptural support for the election of all infants who die in infancy.
I do however see something in little children (in particular the ones who came to Jesus on that occasion), characteristics (i.e. without prejudice, pride, ambition, and vanity, with meekness, and humility) that each of us must have for the kingdom of God. I believe Jesus used this event as a way to rebuke His disciples. We shouldn’t read too much more than that into it.

I also haven’t seen in anyone’s post anything that would lead me to believe they would tell a grieving parent that their child was in hell. That simply would be uncouth and unloving.
Though I don’t believe there is any indication that all infants who die in infancy go to heaven. I don’t believe we can say with certainty that any infant who dies in infancy is in hell.
Why not just stick with things we can know? Some people seem to believe that God would be unjust if any infant who dies in infancy went to hell that simply is not the case.

If I had a child who died in infancy, I would probably have a hope to one day be reunited with him or her. But, that wouldn’t mean that if my child wasn’t with the Lord, that I would believe that God wasn’t fair or unjust.

Tom

#12632 Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 AM
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Mark,
I know this is an emotional subject. Can you still respect others who differ with you on this subject and not assign motives to them for their conviction to not go beyond what Scripture reveals?

I have a hard time respecting the over all gist of the thread in question. I also don't believe my opinion is any further beyond what Scripture reveals about this than yours. Could you please not assign motives to me (emotions) while passively aggressively insinuating that I have no convictions about going beyond what Scripture reveals.

As far as letting it go. By all means. Michele tried to do just that very early on but so many, seemed to be so determined to flex their "Theological muscles" that the thing just went on and on. Did anyone stop to consider that she is a Sister in Christ who has only recently learned of, and began to fall in love with the doctrines of grace? She managed to keep her chin up amazingly well through an 11 page barrage of opposition but I can't help but believe that she wasn't wounded on at least some level.

If the hyperbole I used to express my disdain for those who so adamantly argue against any hope for the infants of un believers struck a sour note, then so be it. The pov Michele expressed was not un-Biblical nor un-reformed. It was a valid opinion based on hope. Those who truly believe God is sovereign in all things should, of all people hold onto such hope as being something positive. What I saw instead, was 'hope' being sneered down upon by those who had climbed up on their little psuedo academic high-horses. Sad thread really, and one that should certainly be dropped.

"And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:3-5)

Stucco

Stucco #12633 Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:37 AM
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What I saw instead, was 'hope' being sneered down upon by those who had climbed up on their little psuedo academic high-horses. Sad thread really, and one that should certainly be dropped.

Again, accusations without any substance.

Quote
She managed to keep her chin up amazingly well through an 11 page barrage of opposition but I can't help but believe that she wasn't wounded on at least some level.

I understand. As a former charismaniac, it trully hurt me to hear how far off I was. However, emotions cannot rule.

Quote
The pov Michele expressed was not un-Biblical nor un-reformed.

then where is your Biblical support? Isn't that what this thread is for? Or is it just for <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Soapbox.gif" alt="" /> ?


God bless,

william

Stucco #12634 Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:40 AM
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Yes I could, but no I won't.

You offer nothing. And, I wasn't worried to start with.

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Had I wanted to engage certain individuals in that 11 page pile up, I would have done it in that thread.

Instead, you use this thread, and never for it's original intent. Where is that scripture?


God bless,

william

#12635 Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:09 PM
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Instead, you use this thread, and never for it's original intent. Where is that scripture?

Do you have some sort of reading disorder? Go back to the start of the thread and read my first response (all of it), then go ahead and pull your foot out of your mouth.

#12636 Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:22 PM
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I understand. As a former charismaniac, it trully hurt me to hear how far off I was. However, emotions cannot rule.

Oh I see. The staunch Bible scholar had to hurt her for her own good huh? How noble of you. You are in desperate need of a little bit of sanctified common sense to go along with your self-perceived "unemotional intelect."<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Stucco #12637 Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:27 PM
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Mark,
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If the hyperbole I used to express my disdain for those who so adamantly argue against any hope for the infants of un believers struck a sour note, then so be it. The pov Michele expressed was not un-Biblical nor un-reformed. It was a valid opinion based on hope. Those who truly believe God is sovereign in all things should, of all people hold onto such hope as being something positive. What I saw instead, was 'hope' being sneered down upon by those who had climbed up on their little psuedo academic high-horses. Sad thread really, and one that should certainly be dropped.


Thanks for your reply and I do hear you. I don't hold to the view that unbelievers' babies are all unsaved, and as I told Michele, I do have sympathy for your position. My mother lost four babies, if you recall me saying, and I believe that they have as much "chance" if we can even use such a word, to be among the elect as anyone. I don't think infant salvation would necessarily be limited to believers' babies only. Salvation is all of grace. God saves sinners, even among the Gentiles since the day of Pentecost and a few Gentiles before then. If God wants to count them among the elect, I will be happy. If not, I will accept this just like I will have to accept my other unsaved family members being lost, if God does not show them mercy. My three sisters are unsaved as are both my parents, but for some reason, He saved me. Because he has shown mercy to one member of that family, perhaps He will show mercy to those who died so young. I agree that we should have hope in God's mercy for the lost.

Quote
I have a hard time respecting the over all gist of the thread in question. I also don't believe my opinion is any further beyond what Scripture reveals about this than yours. Could you please not assign motives to me (emotions) while passively aggressively insinuating that I have no convictions about going beyond what Scripture reveals.
I am sorry if my words hurt you. I do have respect for you and your opinions and there was no insinuation that you have no regard for going beyond scripture. My only thought was that inflammatory words were being used and an explosion was likely to follow.

I also know that you have been very gracious in your posts in the past. Sometimes these topics can turn into a situation of someone smacking a hornet's nest and some are hurt in the process. I think you are right that Michele was wounded by the exchanges on the other thread and I am sad about that too. I was also afraid that your words might have wounded some here too.


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