"Show me the importance of the simple things; like a word, a seed, a thorn, a nail, and a cup of cold water." The Power Of A Moment song by Chris Rice
If you walk through a Catholic, Anglican, or Orthodox cathedral, you are met by a sensual banquet of paintings, stained glass images, statues, candles, and various other decorations and devotional icons. Beautiful as these are, protestants are historically suspicious of the use of material items in Christian worship. These well meaning Christians invoke the second commandment prohibiting the creation of graven images, and the words of Jesus that God is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. (which should be read in context of the plight of the Samaritans.)
But did Jesus speak of a disembodied faith, whereby the physical is discounted and only the spiritual emphasized? This way of thinking has been brought to such extremes, that some have forbidden dolls and stuffed animals for their children. In some church's the walls are sparse and the congregants plainly clothed and without makeup or adornements of any kind.
In his book, Evangelical Is Not Enough, Thomas Howard has this to say: "By avoiding the dangers of magic and idolatry on the one hand, evangelicism runs itself very near the shoals of Manichaeanism on the other-the view, that is, that pits the spiritual against the physical. Its bare, spare churches, devoid of most Christian symbolism (except oddly, some candles, or perhaps a modest cross in some of its churches), bespeaks its correct attempt to keep the locale of faith where it must ultimately be, in the heart of man. But by denying the whole realm of Christian life and practice the principle that it allows in all other realms of life, namely, the principle of symbolism and ceremony and imagery, it has, despite its loyalty to orthodox doctrine, managed to give a semi-Manichaean hue to the Faith."<font size="1">1</font>
In the Old Testament God understands that we are physical creatures and need the physical to direct our attention to the spiritual. For in all attempts, we cannot maintain for long a purely abstract concept of God. Why did the Ark of the Covenant need to be plated in pure gold, with cheribum affixed with wings spread over it? Why did the Tabernacle need to be constructed of the finest fabrics, or Solomon's Temple of the most costly materials? A purely spiritualist approach to these things would condemn it all as an orgy of idolatrous practices, were it not for the fact that God commanded it to be brought about.
Though we know and expound that God is forever unchanging, we somehow imagine that the God who inspired Solomon's Temple will settle for less today. A rented room in a strip mall with electric guitar worship, folding chairs, paper plates, and a pastor who says, "Just call me Dave," serve as an extreme example of our misunderstanding of the concept that where two or more are gathered in God's name, He is present.
It is the worship of statues and graven things that is strictly forbidden, (i.e. attributing divinity to dead objects) but this doesn't mean that physical things cannot or should not be used to enhance our worship of Almighty God. In fact, they are used effectively to affix our attention to the Divine. The physical, in the right context, can direct our gaze to an invisible God. In fact, this is very necessary, for we are creatures of sensory perception, whereby we need to touch, smell, and see in order to conceptualize in our minds what is invisible and untouchable.
The Bible is rich in symbolism, in the use of objects to impart spiritual meanings and truth; such as water, blood, bread, wine, a dove, and tongues of fire. Though we do not worship these things, God understands that we need more than a nebulous concept of Him, that we need physical cues to remind us of spiritual truths.
God most deeply demonstrates this understanding in the mystery of the Incarnation, whereby the immaterial and seemingly unattainable God takes on human flesh and blood and dwells with us, experiencing our suffering, our joys, our grief, and the hardship of human existance. We can be told that God understands our pain and know this in abstract, but we can never could have really understood, unless God had not demonstrated His compassion and solidarity with us by taking on our form and living amongst us.
In fact the idea of Immanuel, God with us, was such a sweet comfort and glorious hope to those who hadn't heard from God in centuries. For God did not only reach out and touch suffering and dying humanity, He embraced us convincing us of His incredible love for us on the deepest levels of human comprehension.
The Eucharist is another strong example of the synonomous relationship of the spiritual and the physical, whereby we experience fellowship with Christ by the partaking of bread and wine. By the words of Christ, "Do this in remembrance of Me." He again affirms His understanding that we need something tangeable by which we can reach out and touch the invisible God. By saying, "This IS my body, and this IS my blood", He bespeaks of something deeper than mere symbolism, so that we can understand that we are indeed in fellowship with Christ, and nothing short of it.
And so icons have been used for centuries in Christian worship. They bring beauty and meaning to our worship and impart to us the sublime majesty of our God. Statues and relics bring to our memory the faithful saints of old, whose lives inspire us hold fast to our holy faith and cherish it always. Candles and insense further align our faculties with ever higher and exalted states of worship of the Lord God.
And so I implore you to not fear these things, but rather to incorporate these material witnesses reverently in our Christian faith.
<font size="1">1</font>Evangelical Is Not Enough by Thomas Howard pg. 35. Copyright 1984 and possibly out of print. Howard was raised in the protestant faith, but was drawn to a more liturgical faith after a visit to an Anglican Church.
Over 50 views and no replies. I take it then that everyone agrees! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
This is a nice change because I am very battle weary. It gets tiring fighting EVERYONE in the forum, but that's the plight of the lone Roman Catholic <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/threaddevil.gif" alt="" />
Thank you everyone, and and peace to you in the Sacred Heart of Christ!
Over 50 views and no replies. I take it then that everyone agrees! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
This is a nice change because I am very battle weary. It gets tiring fighting EVERYONE in the forum, but that's the plight of the lone Roman Catholic <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/threaddevil.gif" alt="" />
Thank you everyone, and and peace to you in the Sacred Heart of Christ!
Could we really call ourselves "Protestants", if we agreed with you? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> It would be like saying that the Protestant Reformation was all a mistake.
Could we really call ourselves "Protestants", if we agreed with you? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> It would be like saying that the Protestant Reformation was all a mistake.
Tom <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />
You said it, not me! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
God bless you! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
I used to hang out in Romish chat rooms and forums, taunting them with my Protestantism, but as I matured in faith I thought of better things to do with my time and efforts to proclaim Christ.
If you are honest with yourself you will have to admit that you chose this particular topic because you fully expected it to "push some buttons". This tactic is referred to as "baiting", I guess nobody took the bait.
I suggest you use your mouse buttons and search those Highway articles referencing idolatry.
Ok, you accuse me of trying to start trouble when I'm simply discussing differences in our faiths. In fact I'm delighted that most people here have no serious disagreements on this topic.
And you refer me to articles on idolatry. Another veiled accusation noted. Perhaps YOU might study idolatry that you might understand what it really is. For if you did, you wouldn't have implicated me in it because of my membership in the Catholic Church.
And since you have indeed laid out these charges, I'm obligated to respond. I DO NOT instigate trouble or seek to generate strife. And I DO NOT worship idols. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad3.gif" alt="" /> Nor does my Church, for that matter.
I hope that you will let this be the end of this conversation, for it hasn't been very pleasant at all. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ugh.gif" alt="" />
I have read many of your posts with interest and often you make good points,however on this stating that your church does not worship idols well I must conclude your having a laugh as my daughter would say.Defending the indefensable springs to mind. Yours in Christ
Personally, I think catholicsoldier has been fairly hospitable and decent during his stay here. I think this is an interesting topic, since the church upheld this idea nearly universally until the reformation. I think that simply stating somebody is an idol worshiper without offering evidence is worse than posting a controversial topic. It's blind character assassination. Such an odd approach for those who usually scream "give me scripture", yet I saw none.
I, for one, think there is a middle ground here. We can easily go overboard and these items can cause us to stumble. However, I find that nearly every church I have attended uses some form of symbolism; cross, chalices, doves, etc. Historically, the use of basic symbols such as these has been allowed. So where do we draw the line? Should our churches have only wood floors and pews?
As a reformed Anglican type, our churches do use some symbolism However, we try to keep from using too much, and make sure we have specific reasons for the symbolisms we use. Every REC parish I have visited was very conservative, with generally only a cross. There is some stained glass in some parishes, but I think it best to remain conservative on this issue and limit the use of such things. It's just as easy for fancy pretty things to draw your attention away from God.
Does the Roman church use artwork or relics as objects of veneration? Does it believe that special grace can be obtained by praying in proximity to them or certain shrines? If not, why doesn't the Pope order these practices to stop?
averagefellar,
I wonder if certain Calvinists object to any physical depiction of the saints or of Christ in particular. I read where a Calvinist pastor objected to Mel Gibson's Passion as being contrary to the commandments since Christ is God. If this is a Calvinist view, perhaps someone could elaborate or reference an appropriate article.
Speratus, yes. Some hold to an incredibly conservative interpretation of the second commandment. I think it is proper to guard against the overuse and abuse of such things, as you pointed out some of the problems of veneration, etc. However, the idea that our worship services and meeting places should be devoid of all symbolism is not found in scripture nor historical Christianity. I can easily pick out three common practices, used by nearly every denomination, that are not found within scripture. Still,m it's better to guard against overuse of anything, IMHO.
A simple search on The Passion, or modern contemporary music will surely get results.
Many Catholic traditions seem strange to a Protestant mindset. But I can say this for certain. In all my years as a Catholic I have never worshipped a statue or icon of any kind, nor have I witnessed anyone doing so.
It seems strange to see devout Catholics kneeling before a Marian shrine, but we are lifting our hearts to the Lord. We are well instructed to not ascribe divine attributes or personality to any object, but to use it as a primer to direct our attention heavenward.
We believe that Mary is in heaven with her Son Jesus and intercedes for us to the ultimate Intercessor, Jesus, who is our Advocate before the Father. Intercession happens all the time, when you pray for another believer, you are engaged in the ministry of intercession. We believe that the Saints who are in heaven can similarly intercede for us by reasons I will address on a separate thread.
But we aren't confused on the issue to think that the intercession of the saints could take place of the final intercession of Christ. I am personally comforted to know that Mary and the saints pray for me in the way that no one else can, tirelessly, having exchanged corruptable and mortal bodies for eternal bodies.
And so as we are intructed, we "seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God." and "not on things on the earth."(Col 3:1,2) It is not for Protestants to judge our hearts as we worship, though many jump at the chance to, that is God's job.
I am proud to worship in the manner Christians have worshipped for centuries. Catholic worship is rooted in ancient Christian practice, and we can trace these traditions all the way back the the New Testament Church.
Finally in answer to your questions, we do recieve special grace according to our proximity to these places in that the icons and adornments enhance our heavenly meditation. As far as the Pope is concerned, you likely misunderstand the relationship of the Pope to the Church, and I will someday explain papal authority. Suffice to say here that he doesn't unilaterally rule the Church with an iron fist.
I am proud to worship in the manner Christians have worshipped for centuries. Catholic worship is rooted in ancient Christian practice, and we can trace these traditions all the way back the the New Testament Church.
Scriptural reference for Mary shrines? How about prayer to any besides God?
A couple of things that may have escaped your attention:
1. It cannot be demonstrated positively from scripture that we MAY NOT pray for the saints.
2. I am not bound by sola scriptura, but in addition by the traditions of our 2000 year Church history. In fact, after the death of the original apostles, their intercession was immediately sought by the early believers, so strong was their belief that the saints were in Heaven with Christ.
We pay special attention to the first few centuries A.D. because the ministry and foundership of the Apostles were very fresh and recent, and the practices of the early church most accurately modeled what they were taught by the Apostles.
"Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."
1. It cannot be demonstrated positively from scripture that we MAY NOT pray for the saints.
Poor argumentation.
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2. I am not bound by sola scriptura, but in addition by the traditions of our 2000 year Church history. In fact, after the death of the original apostles, their intercession was immediately sought by the early believers, so strong was their belief that the saints were in Heaven with Christ.
References, please? I know you prefer the edicts of Rome against Gods word, but on this board, we uphold the primacy of Gods Word, not tradition that changes with the wind. Now, please support your claim with scripture?
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We pay special attention to the first few centuries A.D. because the ministry and foundership of the Apostles were very fresh and recent, and the practices of the early church most accurately modeled what they were taught by the Apostles.
References for prayer to dead people? Communion of one kind? Marian idolatry? Papal infallibility? NONE! leave your vain traditions behind and follow God. The traditions you espouse are generally held only by Rome, and are not catholic.
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