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Holy Spirit Question #18510
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:25 AM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:25 AM
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Maryland
neicey Offline OP
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neicey  Offline OP
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Not everybody ever born has a Holy Spirit right, so for the people who say everybody has a Holy Spirit, what is it that's being misunderstood.
Does anybody know why people would say this ?
If that information is answered already some where on this site please post it, maybe SemperReformanda knows it's whereabouts. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Neicey

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: neicey] #18511
Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:48 PM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:48 PM
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MarieP Offline
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Neicey,

First, when you say "a Holy Spirit", are you meaning THE Holy Spirit, the third Person in the Trinity?

The answer to this would be "no". While the Holy Spirit is omnipresent (all present), He does not indwell all (only believers).

Some articles on the Holy Spirit:

The Holy Spirit by Edwin Palmer

How can a true work of the Holy Spirit be distinguished from that which is false? by John MacArthur

The Holy Spirit by A. W. Pink

The Holy Spirit's Work in Salvation by A. W. Pink

Grieve Not the Spirit by Robert Murray M'Cheyne

As to people believing the Holy Spirit indwells all, that would be the belief of universalists and those that deny Christ as the only Way, Truth, and Life.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: neicey] #18512
Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:29 AM
Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:29 AM
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catholicsoldier Offline
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Neicey,

One question I must pose is where is this false doctrine being promoted? It sure sounds like humanistic religion using Christian terminologies. Humanists typically claim that we all make up "God"; essentially that God is not an distinct Being but rather a collaberation of the collective human spirit.

I would reject the "brotherhood of man" theory based on the mere fact that man isn't very brotherly toward each other, before even beginning to decimate it by sound theology. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/gramps.gif" alt="" />

If you could provide some more information, we might better be able to help you.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: catholicsoldier] #18513
Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:05 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:05 PM
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Posts: 351
The Great White North, Eh!
Henry Offline
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Henry  Offline
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The Great White North, Eh!
Tony Campolo is one who teaches that unbelievers can have the spirit of Christ. It's the kind of "wider grace" teaching that guys like Robert Shuller and even, of late, Billy Graham hold to. Although, I'm not sure if they would teach that absolutely every person ever born has the Holy Spirit.


(Latin phrase goes here.)
Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: Henry] #18514
Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:29 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:29 PM
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catholicsoldier Offline
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Henry,

Yes, it's kind of a "feel good" theology we need to be on guard against. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" />

But in deference to Billy Graham, (someone I admire greatly for his passion for the lost) this isn't the first time I've heard of him holding a belief that isn't, strictly speaking, orthodox. But I can only attribute this to my belief that evangelicism is his calling and strong suit, not theology. His heart is rent (rended) for the lost, and I'm sure he has a strong desire that not one would be lost.

But his life work and passion evidences his belief that one must place his trust in Christ to be saved. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Life is hard. God is good. Heaven is sure.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: catholicsoldier] #18515
Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:45 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:45 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
catholicsoldier said:
But his life work and passion evidences his belief that one must place his trust in Christ to be saved.

Unfortunately, this isn't exactly true. Billy Graham for some years has taught a "second chance" salvation; i.e., that those who die without Christ are not damned but will be given another "chance" in the afterlife. Additionally, he has at least intimated that Moslems, etc., and even some pagans can be saved without Christ in this life. What is more disturbing to me is his semi-Pelagianism, whereby he says, "God has done all that He can do to save you. Now, it's up to you." I'm sure that Rome would have no qualms with such statements.

Methinks that Romans 10:2 describes Mr. Graham accurately:


Romans 10:2 (KJV) "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."



In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: Pilgrim] #18516
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:18 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
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I agree!! This is an interesting interview to demonstrate your point:

NEWS BRIEF: "Graham Believes Men Can Be Saved Apart From Name Of Christ", by Robert E. Kofahl, Ph.D., television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller, on May 31, 1997. The following segment is an exact transcript of an excerpt close to the end of the broadcast. Reported by The Christian News, October 20, 1997, page 15.

"SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer -- you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ ... I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven."

"SCHULLER: What, what I hear you saying, that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

"SCHULLER: [R.S. trips over his tongue for a moment, his face beaming, then says] I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

GRAHAM: There is. There definitely is."


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: J_Edwards] #18517
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:22 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:22 PM

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<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: Pilgrim] #18518
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:49 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:49 PM
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Fort Bragg, NC
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catholicsoldier Offline
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Pilgrim,

This then begs the question, does he base this belief on Romans 1:20, the "inner witness" concerning those who have never heard the gospel, but have, nonetheless, understood the things of God through the splendor of creation?

Sir, if this is true then he's not preaching a "second chance gospel" for it would specifically not apply to those who have heard the gospel and not responded, but to those who have not heard the gospel as of yet. This doesn't apply anywhere in America, or any place where the gospel is accessible, but people choose not to look into it.

As Saint Paul says:
Quote

"Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent"
Acts 17:30


And this is what the RCC teaches as well for those peoples yet unreached by the gospel of Christ, this isn't a second chance, nor does it imply that God overlooks sinful acts. But rather that God saves those who understand Him, and love Him soley by the witness of creation.

I've heard stories about missionaries that were received with rejoicing by indiginous people who already had believed, but had only to put a name on their faith. Like the man born blind and healed, they seemed to be asking, "Who is He (the Son of God), that I may believe in Him?" (John 9:36)

But I cannot believe that Moslums can be included in this phenomenon, for Islam specifically incorporates the teachings of Christ in their religion, but refuse to accept Him as God's Son. There is no ignorance here, just a refusal to believe.

You said:
Quote

"Additionally he has at least intimated that Moslums, etc., and even some pagans can be saved without Christ in this life."


One thing is for sure, that the only channel of God's mercy is the cross, and even if there can be those saved post mortem, these must come to terms with the cross. So no one can be saved without Christ. Did he really say this, sir?

But as far as Billy Graham's concerned, arminianistic beliefs are typical among those who are exclusively evangelists, for they focus on such verses as John 3:16 and Revelation 3:20, and typically don't delve too deeply in the theology of free-will. As I stated, that's not Graham's strength. But he has devoted his life to preaching the gospel and among his accolades are many thousands have responded to alter calls even if (by "four soils" mathematics) only a quarter of those actually develope a genuine faith in Christ.

Billy Graham is an accomplished Christian evangelist, though certainly with his weaknesses; but be sure you aren't so focused on the hole that you miss the doughnut. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

By the Sacred Heart of Christ and the Immaculate Heart of Mary

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: J_Edwards] #18519
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:57 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:57 PM
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Fort Bragg, NC
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catholicsoldier Offline
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Mr. Edwards,

Thank you for providing a specific article, sir. I am saddened to hear these words from a man I highly esteem and admire. I especially noted the two talking about the "wideness" of God's mercy. Have they forgotten that "wide" was the word Christ used to describe the path to hell, and "narrow" the gate that we are to strive to enter?

I truly hope this is merely a sign that Billy is going senile <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/granny.gif" alt="" /> and needs to retire after a long and remarkable life of reaching the lost for Christ.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: catholicsoldier] #18520
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:09 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:09 PM

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Quote
But as far as Billy Graham's concerned, arminianistic beliefs are typical among those who are exclusively evangelists, for they focus on such verses as John 3:16 and Revelation 3:20, and typically don't delve too deeply in the theology of free-will. As I stated, that's not Graham's strength. But he has devoted his life to preaching the gospel and among his accolades are many thousands have responded to alter calls even if (by "four soils" mathematics) only a quarter of those actually develope a genuine faith in Christ.


The problem is that the arminian gospel isn't the Biblical gospel. Therefore, if Mr. Graham preaches the arminian gospel, he preaches a different gospel.

Quote

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (KJV)


Could anybody come up with a reliable number of possible true conversions at a Billy Graham gathering?


God bless,

william

Re: Holy Spirit Question #18521
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:32 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:32 PM
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catholicsoldier Offline
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William,
Quote

Could anybody come up with a reliable number of possible true conversions at a Billy Graham gathering?


Sir, many would argue that even if just one was truly saved, it would be worth all the effort.

"To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life"

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: catholicsoldier] #18522
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:35 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:35 PM

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Are you saying it is alright to "preach another gospel"?


God bless,

william

Re: Holy Spirit Question #18523
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:47 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:47 PM
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catholicsoldier Offline
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William,

No, sir. There is only one gospel and I believe that Billy preaches it. But even supposing that he wasn't, have you heard the story of the heathen man who heard someone preaching to a crowd? This man, to impress his friends and to ridicule Christians decided to get his own soapbox and start "preaching". Someone was actually saved from his mock preaching. Though the speaker was an unbeliever, the gospel went forth and someone was saved.

Even if you question the private beliefs of Billy Graham, there's no questioning the astounding effects of his ministry.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Re: Holy Spirit Question [Re: catholicsoldier] #18524
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:59 PM
Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:59 PM

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Quote
There is only one gospel and I believe that Billy preaches it. But even supposing that he wasn't, have you heard the story of the heathen man who heard someone preaching to a crowd? This man, to impress his friends and to ridicule Christians decided to get his own soapbox and start "preaching". Someone was actually saved from his mock preaching. Though the speaker was an unbeliever, the gospel went forth and someone was saved.


I contend that the arminian gospel is a false gospel. Do you disagree? I am unaware of the Bible teaching us to preach a false gospel to save anybody. The truth that God uses evil to His good does not excuse wrong. Do you have any verification of your story? How about something of evidence that Billy Graham has been "astounding"?


God bless,

william

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