The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Holy Spirit Question

I would agree that there is no questioning the "astounding effects of his ministry"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Having worked for the Billy Graham Crusade, I am more than a little familiar with it's theology, methodology and results. Even Billy Graham himself has admitted that in his estimation "perhaps 10% of all those who come forward are actually saved." Methinks that Graham is off by at least 9.9999%. The "outstanding effects" however is to be seen in the hardening of men's hearts toward the true living God and the salvation which is to be found in the Christ of the Bible. The "outstanding effects" are the deluding of millions of people who think that they are right with God, when in fact, they are on the road to perdition with Bibles in their hands. Psychological manipulation, Madison Avenue techniques and emotional appeals do not result in true godly repentance and faith in Christ. Charles Finney, one of Billy Graham's "heroes", and whom he models his methodology and message was a class A heretic who led many, along with himself, to a fiery hell.

But as I wrote before, it isn't surprising that a Roman Catholic would be sympathetic to Billy Graham as he is truly a semi-Pelagian "brother".

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,

With all due respect, sir, it is not Billy Graham that's deluded, but rather you yourself, and many of the members here. I'm glad you wrote this post and spelled out just how confused you really are.

You have, in an effort to defend sola fide, created a works based salvation, in that you require Christians to meet your exacting standards in order to attain salvation. They must have a "correct" belief in the 5 sola's as well as a college level understanding of "justification by faith alone," as only a couple of examples of a highly sophisticated body of theology. Lord help the simple, because they're just too stupid to go to heaven. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/comfort.gif" alt="" />

In that you don't see the obvious circular paradox here, you don't need to worry about the "damage" you perceive Rev. Graham to be doing. In fact, you've ushered in a semi-neicheism in that you've created a "clique" in which the smart are "in" and the simple are "out."

I'm glad God isn't like that, because in Ecclesiastes we read:

Thank you for clarifying your extremely distasteful and errant position. For what God has made simple, that the simple may come to Him, you have made complicated; and therefore placed your own gate on the path to salvation, with a heady entrance exam.

Billy Graham has made Jesus accessable to common people, and you have barred the door! How do you distinguish yourself from the pharisees who did the exact same thing?

Just a few not-so-well-known facts: The smart have little compassion for the simple, the strong have little compassion for the weak, the thin have little compassion for the overweight, etc. It is human nature to be so short sighted that we wonder why the others just don't get it.

We are educated, but we are called not to lord it over those who are lacking, but to have compassion on others, not thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought, but to be humble before God and men, knowing that even the foolishness of God surpasses our crowning intellectual empires.

I really hope you think hard about this pridefulness you seem to espouse.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

Any scripture supporting your position besides that one you took out of context? I have stated repeatedly, Mr. Graham teaches a false gospel. Please show how this is wrong. Your emotional pleadings have little effect on truth.


You need to support this claim with a quote, please. Otherwise, I think this is a slight misrepresentation.


God bless,

william

Thanks Semper <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" /> I knew you had the answers <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Hi catholicsoldier,

I don't want to tell where this is being said, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> but Pilgrim will have a clue.

From reading the other post, they have hit on Billy Graham which is one of the preachers these people like, and so do you catholicsoldier, so now I'm a little worried, about these people, but you, I like you here <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> you would not believe how much I learn from your post and everbody responding, it's a great read <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

Catholicsoldier,

You have severely misunderstood and misrepresented Pilgrim. The Gospel is accessible to simple people; one need not have a "college level" understanding of the doctrine of justification to be saved. "We are not saved by anything we do, but only by God's mercy in Christ Jesus" does not require a high IQ.

<script language="JavaScript" src="includes/ubbt_blink.js"></script><span id="blink"><blink>AMEN!</blink></span><script language="JavaScript">blink();</script> It is just because salvation is Sola Gratia that there is no one who is unsavable. It is only because the Father Who has predestined, the Son Who has secured atonement and the Holy Spirit Who regenerates and infallibly draws sinners to Christ that anyone can be redeemed, rescued and reconciled to God.

However, it is the responsibility of those who have come to know the truth to preach the pure Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. It is the Spirit working in and through the Word that brings a sinner to faith. A truncated message will invariably produce a truncated response. Where there is no mention of men's incurable condition, hopeless state, both spiritually and judicially, there will be no conviction of sin and thus no repentance. Where there is no mention of the depth and sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, there will be no motivation for a sinner to trust, believe and depend upon the Lord Christ for the remission of sins. Thus, the weight falls not upon how much a sinner needs to know, but upon the one who brings the message to make known the truth about God, Christ, sin and salvation. If one preaches another Christ, another Spirit and/or another Gospel, then likewise it will produce a spurious faith and deception.

Let me also just rebut a remark that catholicsoldier said, at least by implication, in my regard. What I know of biblical truth is that which has motivated me to work in Gospel Missions (how many times have you had drunken sinners vomited upon you while ministering to them?) and in jails and prisons (how many times have you been caught in a lock down during attempted prison breaks and had their life threatened during a worship service?). It is because of the knowledge of sovereign free grace which has been revealed, both to the mind and in one's heart that reminds them from whence they have been saved and to take pity upon those who are alienated from God. The greatest evangelists, missionaries and preachers the world has ever known have been Calvinists. May God raise up thousands more who are steadfast in proclaiming the truth as it is found in God's written Word.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim said:

Very touching testamony and I believe you. As you probably know my dad is pastor and has preached (and continues to) in San Quentin in California, (the death row prison) But how do you reconcile this with your other statement:
and yet covenantinblood thinks I do you and injustice saying:

Have I really? I can only judge by the words I read, but Pilgrim, allow me to pose this as a question rather than a conclusion: Is it possible that you have let your love grow cold (Matt 24:12) or that you have wearied in doing good (Gal 6:9) in the years since? Scholatic theology can be cold indeed and cause us to lack compassion to those less savvy. I must ask this, because you seem to have condemned "millions" who have put their faith in Christ simply because their faith is too simple for you, when the gospel is simple in design, even as God openly invites us to delve deeper into the mystery of His Word.

carpe cerevesa Seize the beer! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

catholicsoldier

First of all, why and on what basis would you imagine (truly your statements about me are nothing more than the fruit of your own imagination and ignorance of me personally) that I have "grown cold"? Are you somehow saying that my passion for the lost no longer exists because I love the truth? (Jh 17:17) As I come to know the truth more deeply, the fact is, my passion grows. And, D.v., it will continue in this manner until I am called home.

But now to your judgment upon me which is based upon your mistaken notion that these "millions" have actually believed upon the Christ of the Scriptures with a true and living faith, wrought in them by the work of the Holy Spirit. I thought I was clear enough when I wrote that the preaching of a spurious "another gospel", which is so popular today and infamously known as "Sandemanianism" and theologically as semi-Pelagianism can only produce (leaving room for sovereign intervention in spite of it) a spurious faith and self-deception in regard to being reconciled to God. Whited sepulchres are no substitute for the righteousness of Christ. (Matt 23:17, 29; cf. Rom 10:2; Hos 4:6) Playing "churchianity" will not and cannot save a soul. Yet what I do know is that God has His elect among the people's of the earth. And through the preaching of the true Gospel of free grace, those who have been ordained to eternal life will be "made alive" and believe upon Christ. (Ps 110:3; Jh 6:37; 10:16; 27; Acts 13:48; 18:10; et al) It is sometimes given to me to plant, other times to water. But it is God's sovereign power and right to give the increase. Salvation is of the Lord. (Jonah 2:9)

In His Grace,

Pilgrim said:

Done. I'll take you at your word, sir. End of subject.

Here's the contradition that I see, Jeff. Earlier, you and others have made quotes from reformed theologians to the effect that if someone truly believes the Arminian gospel in their hearts, they cannot be saved. I assume this is your take as well. But you just said that "millions" think they are right with God, but are on the road to perdition with Bibles in their hands. In this you implicate them with ignorance of the true essence of Arminianism and therefore they cannot be disqualified for that reason.

I'm confused, and I want to understand. Could you please reconcile these two statements?

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />
(James)

I'm not certain what you mean by this exactly. If these millions of people actually read their Bibles without the bias of man-made constructions like easy-believism and semi-pelagianism, the text would speak clearly of the sovereignty of God, the depravity of man, the perseverance of the saints, and the effectiveness of God's election, Christ's atoning blood, and the Spirit's call.

Before I came to believe the doctrines of grace, there were parts of the Bible that I ignored (Ephesians 1-2, Romans 8-9, John 6), as I did not and could not reconcile them with my then quasi-Arminian system.

SemperReformanda,

While no one is discouraged from reading the Bible, Christians always have, and always will, place varying degrees of trust in our pastors, which is why we read:
We Catholics place more trust in our leaders than Protestants typically do, but that doesn't mean that Protestants don't also trust the interpretations given to them by their pastors and allow their pastors to shape the way they view sacred scriptures.

The false belief of pretribulation raptureism had been brought about by extremely charasmatic leaders, and even now when I try to show people the inherent error in that doctrine from 2 Thessalonians the response I often get is, "Well, my pastor says that this passages really mean this...."

SemperReformanda, I wish we could all be like the Bereans, but the study of scripture, that comes so easily to you and me may not so with others of more limited capabilities, so they must trust someone.

Perhaps teacher's receiving a stricter judgement implies that a certain degree of responsibility for what laypeople believe is shifted to their shoulders. Or put more specifically, IF Billy Graham is teaching error, and people believe in the sincerity of their hearts, God is likely to hold Dr. Graham responsible as the more learned individual.

What do you think?

To whom else shall we go? You have the words of eternal life!

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

We are not talking of people who have put their faith in Christ, but of those who have put faith in their faith. They think that because they've "said the sinner's prayer and accepted Jesus into their hearts" that they are right with God, but they are deluded. It has nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof; it has nothing to do with being "too simple." I dare say the Gospel of Christ is radical in it's simplicity: No man's salvation rests in his recitation of the sinner's prayer, nor even in his own "acceptance" of Jesus, but salvation rests on the grace and mercy of God Almighty alone.

There simply is no IF. Mr. Graham preaches the arminian gospel, which is not the gospel of the Bible. To answer the call at a Billy Graham crusade is to answer a false gospel. So this begs the question, if those people are believing Mr. Grahams gospel, how are they saved at all, given it is a false gospel? Since these people do not hear the true gospel, how could they respond to it?


God bless,

william

Covenantinblood,

Sir, I'm surprised that you agree with me on this point. Yes, the "sinner's prayer" is not biblical and is very dissimilar to the biblical model of conversion.

Wow! Talk about hyper-Calvinism. Now the efficacious call does not even require a response of some sort. Let's take it a step further; why should God bother to call at all when He can just breeze them into heaven? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

"To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life!"

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />
(James)