The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum "Scripture plus" principle of authority

I note that many cessationists speak of believers living in a "Scriptures plus direct revelation" scheme of authority prior to the completion of the canon, with the necessity for such a scheme being the obvious lack of completed Scripture. But I have a reservation based on the fact that even a completed canon could not tell David what military stratagem he should employ against his enemies, yet the Lord was pleased to reveal that to him via special revelation. Thus the deficiency in canon had no bearing on WHY that special revelation was made to David.

I note also that some Scots Worthies, for example, Sandy Peden or Donald Cargill, were intuitively guided from danger by some form of extra biblical revelation...

My point is not to prove continuationism at all; rather, I would like to see how cessationists explain such difficulties. I would also add that I am struggling with these issues because I need to know which is the correct position, due to a crisis in my life.

Thanks in advance of your replies.

Flunky,

Welcome to the-highway discussion board.

With all due respect if you don't mind I'd like to ask you a question about your question first. Do you think the guidance that David received along with the other examples you sighted should be recorded in Scripture? I guess I'm wondering why you're taking these applications and using them to discuss whether the text of Scripture is completed.

Surely the Holy Spirit can quide in many ways but in no case will He disagree with the written Word. After all He wrote it through the Apostles and Prophets. So surely he will not guide in a way contrary to that which He has in days of old and as recorded in our Bibles. However, if I'm understanding your question correctly you're really looking for quidance to handle a specific problem.

There will be challenges and opportunities confronting us in our daily lives which surely need guidance from the Lord. This will not require a continuation of the canon but a daily prayer life, daily Bible reading, and trust that the Lord will provide what we need when we need it. Sometimes the Lord brings a text of Scripture to our minds that speaks directly to our current situation. Sometimes a pastor or a personal friend will offer words of wisdom that will help us. The point is that the Lord will neither leave us or forsake us in our time of need.

I don't see the problems you've sighted as problems for cessationists at all. Can you be more specific what you're looking for or do you want to just address this in a general way?


Wes

to The Highway Discussion Board.

The question(s) you have raised have been discussed here many times over. Perhaps if you did a search for such terms as "canon", "cessation", etc., you would find some relevant information and perhaps even answers. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would recommend that you read the two following articles, which are located on The Highway website (btw, have you visited the website yet? Home Page).

Does God Speak Today Apart From the Bible? by R. Fowler White

The Speaking Voice by A.W. Tozer

The Canon was not complete during the time of David, that is true. But that only serves to show that before the Canon was closed, the Spirit was inspiring those "holy men of God" so as to produce the writings which would be included in the Canon. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> (cf. Heb 1:1; 2Pet 1:19-20) Peter, in the referenced passage was an eye-witness to the Lord Christ and listened to Him teach daily. But he even says that he heard the very voice of God Himself yet he says that the Scriptures are superior and should be the source for "hearing God" speak today.

As to making decisions where one desires to know the will of God, this too has been discussed here, even recently; see here: GOD's WILL. There are several links to really good articles which I am sure you will benefit should you read them.

In His Grace,

Hi there,

I'm going to add my two cents here too <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

I think I know what you are asking. I know many people here can give examples like this.. but I will give two. I have a certain "crisis" in my own life too. And God has been so kind and good in it.. and has given me guidance and direction and comfort.

The first example.. with the situation that is going on, someone told me that I was being "set up" to take a fall for something very serious that is going on. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that for sure. Well, I came home, and that night was thinking and praying about it. I decided to open the bible just for some comfort and the first thing I turned to was:

Psalm 141
"1 A Psalm of David. Lord, I cry out to You; Make haste to me! Give ear to my voice when I cry out to You. 2 Let my prayer be set before You as incense, The lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. 3 Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; Keep watch over the door of my lips. 4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies.

5 Let the righteous strike me; It shall be a kindness. And let him rebuke me; It shall be as excellent oil; Let my head not refuse it. For still my prayer is against the deeds of the wicked. 6 Their judges are overthrown by the sides of the cliff, And they hear my words, for they are sweet. 7 Our bones are scattered at the mouth of the grave, As when one plows and breaks up the earth. 8 But my eyes are upon You, O God the Lord; In You I take refuge; Do not leave my soul destitute. 9 Keep me from the snares they have laid for me, And from the traps of the workers of iniquity. 10 Let the wicked fall into their own nets, While I escape safely."

I couldn't believe it! I didn't even know that Psalm was in there! So God "spoke" to me through His word.

The second example does not include the bible necessarily, but it only confirms what He promises. Last Friday night, I was beginning to doubt if God would continue to provide for us. I was starting to worry. I didn't exactly pray "officially" about it.. just sort of examining myself on some things. The very next morning, I was getting ready to take my kids out and had coats on the three older ones. I saw someone pull up in the driveway and wondered who it was. My kids ran outside and while I was putting the baby's coat on, the others started walking back in the house with groceries! Holy cats LOL. Then.. my aunt walked in the house. My kids don't really know who she is because she never comes over.. and doesn't call. She's just a very busy gal. She helped me put the groceries away (and believe me.. we needed them!) And asked if she could speak to me privately.

She told me that she called her husband's family, and our family, and they all want to help make sure my kids have a christmas. She said her bible study group also wants to help. I asked her "what came over you??" She said that she had been wanting to do something for the longest time, but the night before at her bible study group, (the night I was worrying) it really "kicked her [img]https://the-highway.com/Smileys/censored.gif[/img]" and she decided that morning that "this is the day I'm going to do something!" She almost could not contain herself. Well.. that was the perfect day for her to come eh? I am not worried anymore about God's provision and Lord willing, will not doubt again.

Those are just two examples of how God has been working in a very real way. One was right directly through His word, and the other was His working through my aunt, but He was still fulfilling His promise because of His faithfulness.

I know this probably doesn't address your issue specifically.. but I hope it helps <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Michele,

Thanks for sharing those examples. They are interesting applications of how God speaks to us and provides for us on a daily basis.


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the replies, friends.

First of all, I feel that it is a weak argument to claim that direct revelation plus Scripture was necessary SOLELY because the canon was incomplete, since even a completed canon would give no military guidance to a commander today, in the sense in which David was extra-Scripturally guided. Could a modern general look at the Bible and deduce from it what military stratagem to employ against his foes e.g. a head-on assault or a flanking manouevre? No! So what bearing did an incomplete canon have on God's special guidance of David in that battle? Surely the answer is none whatsoever. Therefore it is a bogus argument to say that direct revelation is no longer necessary for every situation because we have a completed Bible. It would be better to link cessationism with the close of the foundational period of prophets and apostles than to base it on the weak argument I have just (I hope) proven amiss.

Secondly, Wes - I think you misunderstood me somewhat. I am not doubting the completion of the canon of Scripture; actually, I wholly accept its completion. And yes, if David's example was recorded in Scripture then it goes without saying that it should have been recorded. What I am trying to do is determine whether or not there are still instances of genuine special revelation from God in matters unrelated to practical godliness or salvation, i.e., as was the case with David's military guidance.

Through a bizarre succession of events, I have felt utterly convinced before God that a certain outcome to a friendship with a girl was assured; however, after an innumerable host of susbequent "false dawns", no tangible progress has yet occurred. Doubting the erstwhile assurance, I began a friendship with someone else and it is coming close to a time when an irreversible decision must be made. Sadly, I have felt now, more than ever, when praying to God, that the first girl was certainly promised... This places me in a serious dilemma and has caused me to completely reassess my long-held view that cessationism was 100% correct.

To close, I appreciate all your replies and Pilgrim, that was very helpful re Peter.

Hello. Welcome to The HighWay.


Could you provide a scriptural passage that claims God will provide special revelation outside His word after it's completion? Is there a passage that requires God to provide special revelation for every event?


The reference isn't special revelation. It is canonized scripture. David was the God appointed King of Israel; something nobody claims today. Historically, the Church has held that all that is necessary for salvation is revealed in God's Word.



Personal experience does not dictate universal truth.


God bless,

william

I don't accept that the revelation made to David was canonized Scripture. It was an event that was subsequently recorded in Scripture, but nevertheless, David did not draw that guidance from the Scriptures then extant; rather, he received this gudiance miraculously.

I think it's a question of whether or not the Bible truly is sufficient for guidance in every moral decision the man of God must make. The answer to that has to be a resounding YES. The difficulty arises when it is no longer obvious whether or not the decision is purely a moral one; certainly, the case with David's military stratagem was purely a tactical rather than a moral issue.

Also, re the question of whether or not I can supply a Scripture reference to say that revelation is ongoing, I think arguing from silence can be dangerous. The Bible does not plainly say that special revelation has ceased, nor does it plainly say it continues. This is why we have such difficulties between cessationists and continuationists.

It is also interesting to note from David regarding the promise he received concerning his future kingship, that he did not deviate from the Law of God in order to bring the promise to fruition, i.e., he did not kill Saul when he had the chance. In light of the promise, therefore, he nonetheless did what God ordinarily required of him from the Word.

If it wasn't scripture, why is it in scripture? Whether David knew it was is irrelevant. The revelation came at a time when canon wasn't closed. Again, David was King of a theocracy; not happening today.

However, another problem arises here. Logically, your argument is non-sequitor. Because one does not know they are "revealing scripture" has no bearing on the openness of canon today. The minute David spoke those words, they were........ Davids words weren't something he simply jotted down one day and a while later somebody decided they were scripture. Those words, as every word in Holy Writ, was inspired by God. The council that affirmed canon didn't decide what was scripture.......they simply affirmed it.


Two problems here. First, scripture does make such a claim.


There is a thread concerning this passage, here, When is the When..., and maybe this one might help as well, Canon complete?.

Second, the Church has held to a closed canon for over 1600 years. IF this is incorrect, please list what other writings/books should now be included. Now this becomes a most serious problem. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> A claim of a yet open canon would require us to rethink our position concerning the Bible, since the Church had it wrong for so long; something I would have a difficult time believing in light of Matthew 16:18.


God bless,

william

I have had friends that would probably not be alive today if it wasn't for listening to what they believed to be God prompting them.
What I mean by that is that one of my friends was driving on a bridge (Lions Gate Bridge), in the middle lane that was open, when he felt something inside him (he didn't know any other way to describe it) telling him to get into his other lane quick. He no sooner did so when a vehicle whizzed passed him in the lane he just left.
This is only one example, I can tell you about. But I believe it was God that was telling him to change lanes.
I don’t know what you would call this particular experience, but I can tell you he didn’t get this prompting from the Bible.

Tom

Would you call this a "revelation"? Is your friends "prompting" possibly part of canon?


God bless,

william

I think you are missing a very crucial and fundamental fact. There were extant writings during David's time, e.g., the Pentateuch and possibly Job, which is the oldest of all the inspired writings. But the point which I think you need to consider and accept is the fact that David was one of those whom God inspired and through whom part of the Scriptures was to come through. Secondly, the manner in which God providentially governed men before the formation of the Canon, which I believe could be considered when John finished the book of Revelation, was far different than afterward. You say that there is no text which speaks of this, but I would beg to differ with you. I think that this passage speaks perspicuously and authoritatively concerning how God spoke and now speaks to men:

Hebrews 1:1-4 (ASV) God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.

I am not going to give you a full-blown exegetical commentary on this passage, but what I would ask you to consider is the clear emphasis upon the "finality" of God's speaking to men and in the establishment of the kingdom in the Lord Christ, Who was the last of God's great Prophets. The apostle's were ordained and commissioned to spread the teachings of Christ as Prophet which were then written in letters, etc. Thus, the apostles were not a continuation of the prophetical office but rather spokesmen of and for Jesus Christ. Thus, God speaks to men through Christ and He in turn speaks to men through the writings of His representatives, who finalized His teachings in their inspired writings.

Further, we have such passages as 2Tim 3:16, which clearly says that the Scriptures are sufficient in and of themselves to instruct, guide, etc., in other words, in all areas of life. What we have in the Scriptures are not only specific commandments, etc., which guide us into what is true and false, right and wrong, pleasing to God and what is sin, but we have also have a complete volume of principles by which we are to use in making decisions. Too many people erroneously think that the Bible is and should be used like an encyclopedia. For example, if they want to know if they should by a Mercedes or a Pontiac Sunbird, they think they should be able to find the answer in the Bible, perhaps by consulting the section on "Shopping for automobiles"? However the Scriptures DO speak to even such decisions by way or principles which God has set forth, e.g., being a good steward, worldliness, desire for status before men, etc., etc. So, one should not expect to find a specific mandate for such decisions in Scripture. Nor, should they expect that God is going to whisper in their ear and tell them to go ahead and buy the Mercedes . . .or the Pontiac Sunbird.

Lastly, if one expects that God is somehow going to "speak to them" with specific guidance in all things pertaining to faith and godliness, then this view negates what the Scriptures teach concerning the doctrine of sanctification; i.e., that believers are to be responsible in "working out your salvation with fear and trembling"; to do good works, to glorify God in all that is done. Sanctification is synergistic. It is God and man working together toward a specific goal; holiness. If one expects that God is going to make all your decisions for you, then "responsibility" is nullified AND this also opens the possibility of God being charged with sinful acts. How many times have we heard from very deranged individuals, e.g., those who bomb abortion clinics, murder their fellowman, steal from others, prostitute their bodies, etc., that the reason they did what they did was because, "God told me to do it"? This can and also extends to those who cause schism in churches, setup private parachurch ministries, those who leave their work and even families to go to the mission field?

Personally, when I hear such claims by people that they did this or that because God told them that this is what they should do, it is evident to me, that what they are actually doing is taking any responsibility from themselves and putting it squarely upon God. I mean, who is going to question the veracity of their words and/or acts if GOD said to do it? Additionally, this type of claim is often used to bilk money from the unwary when they are told that GOD spoke to this person and told them that if they could raise, $xxxxxx in funds, then He would pour out His blessing,etc.

Lastly, I suspect that your present circumstance(s) in regard to this failed or tenuous relationship is greatly influencing your thinking; i.e., you are wanting to KNOW, not only what you should do but also a sort of guarantee that if you do what God wants you to do, then the outcome will be "perfect". Sorry..... but it ain't gonna happen. Decisions of this sort do not come from God but from knowing the abiding Word of God and all that it teaches by way of direct commandment and by its encompassing principles. We are to walk by faith . . . not sight. Stumbling is part of the Christian life. Making wrong decisions are part of the Christian life. And through all our stumbling, sins and wrong choices, we come to depend more upon the forgiveness of God in Christ Jesus and grow in grace. This exactly what Paul prayed for the believers at Colossae. Take note of the basis upon which they were to live and know God:

Colossians 1:9-14 (ASV) For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray and make request for you, that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to the might of his glory, unto all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

In His Grace,

Actually even he would say that it is not part of canon, since he believes the canon is closed.

Tom

Tom,

My question is, HOW can someone like your friend possibly know it was "God" that prompted him to change lanes? The answer most would give is based upon the result; i.e., if in their estimation, the resulting action done on the basis of some alleged "inner prompting or voice" was good, then it was from God. But that begs an additional question, What if the resulting action was, in their estimation, bad, e.g., an injury, sickness, death, loss of business, etc. happened? Are you beginning to see that such a belief is based upon one's own idea of what is "good" and what is "bad"? and may not have any relation whatsoever to what God's will actually is for that person? As an example, what of all those who are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11? Could it be said, that the actions all those who were martyred for the faith were not of God due to what happened to them?

As I mentioned to flunky1, such a view seems to contradict the truth that believers are to walk by "faith", not by sight; i.e., externals. But again, the primary question is, HOW does one determine if what they are "feeling" is of God, Satan, or even their own emotions? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim

I see where you are going with this. However, if that prompting didn't come from God, where did it come from?
If you were in my friend’s position and you felt this prompting, would you ignore it?
Have you ever felt leading to give to a cause and only after you found out that the amount you gave was the exact amount that the person or ministry needed and was praying for?
I have, and have read other accounts of this very thing happening. I read a biography of George Muller a few years ago, who reported just this kind of thing happening time and time again over the course of his ministry to orphans.
I also read about similar things happening to Hudson Taylor.
I am not saying that God works this way all the time, but apparently unless these accounts are not accurate, I would say that God does at times do this.

Tom