Faith is not a work. Paul said that boasting is excluded on the principle of faith (Rom. 3:27).
It isn't scripturally. It is in the arminian/pelagian scheme of possible atonement. With a merely possible atonement, man must do something to acquire this possibility.
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It does not say that faith is a gift of God; it says that we are saved by God's grace, through faith - salvation is the gift of God.
Does man have faith prior to regeneration? When can we expect scripture from you?
I agree that some have come to God at Billy's crusades. However, when you are responding to a false gospel, what are you 'consenting' to?
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This, I know, is contradictory because God is sovereign. Unless God, as a sovereign act of His will gave men the freedom to choose if they will answer His call on their lives.
Still contradictory. God gave away His sovereignty to man? Who is sovereign? This idea of an equipoise state of the conscience was discussed here a few months ago.......it isn't found in scripture. Man is spiritually dead, morally corrupt, does not seek and actually opposes God due to his sinful nature. It takes a radical change to alter this.
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Likewise, I guess dismiss me somehow, if after many reasonings, I still conclude that my current beliefs are in truth and acceptable to God.
I am still waiting for MJM to provide scripture for his views. Could you provide some?
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
How do you deal with this passage, particularly verses 37, 39, 44, and 45?
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Thanks for your response MJM. You give yourself credit for your faith correct?
averagefellar said "Man is spiritually dead, morally corrupt, does not seek and actually opposes God due to his sinful nature. It takes a radical change to alter this."
I will go a little bit deeper with this and give scripture to back it up.
-Paul says we are "dead" Eph 2:1-3.
-Paul also says there is no one who searches after God or even does anything good. Rom 3:10-12
-Paul says were at enmity with God and cannot please him Rom 8:7-8
-Jesus even says we refuse to come to him. Jn 5:40
-Jesus says we are children of the devil and it is OUR will to do what he desires. John 8:44
How then can we be saved?
-John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
- like SemperReformanda said only if God draws us or enables us. Jn 6:44,65
- John 1:12-13 says But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
-Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose
- Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
As you can see i am not basing my beliefs only on eph 2:8,9 but on what scripture says as a whole.
Please give me scripture thats says our will is free to chose between good and evil or generate faith on our own. There is plenty of it that has been perverted.ie: Josh 24:15; Rev 3:20
Soli Deo Gloria <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Soli Deo Gloria; Mon Dec 13, 20041:09 AM.
John 6:35ff used to be my favourite proof text that God irresistibly draws, enables and gives to the Son only those whom he had elected before the foundation of the world to receive salvation. But, recently, as I studied this verse over and over, the more my Calvinistic hermeneutic, which I had superimposed onto the text, faded away. The whole passage in John 6 concerns God's salvific work in the person of the Lord Jesus, as well as man's responsibility to believe in Christ. Here were my observations:
· Jesus' main point is that he is the bread of life; whoever "feeds" (believes) on him will receive eternal life (vv. 27-29). Jesus is the life of the whole world (v. 33). Notice the world, not an elect few. · "Coming" and "believing" are closely related (v. 35). · Although the Jews had seen Jesus, they still did not believe him (v. 36). · The will of the Father is that all those whom he gives to the Son will be "raised up" i.e. given new life and glorified at the last day (vv. 37-39). · Who does the Father give to the Son? Those whom he unconditionally elected to salvation without any responsibility on their part? No. Those whom the Father gives are identified as the "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him" (v. 40). Notice the condition: everyone who looks and believes. Contrast this with verse 36. So, those whom the Father does not give to the Son, are those who see Jesus, and yet do not believe in him (cf. v. 36). There is absolutely no indication in this passage that they are denied eternal life because they were not predestined to believe. · Jesus says that no one can come to him unless the Father draws him and enables him (vv. 44, 65). Jesus speaks of "drawing" elsewhere, in 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". Truly, Jesus is the life of the whole world (v. 33)! · Everyone who listens and learns from the Father will come to Christ (v. 45).
As stated above, I found no hint of an unconditional elective decree or irresistible will in which God chose before eternity certain individuals whom he would enable to respond to the gospel and believe in his Son, whilst unconditionally choosing to withhold his enabling grace from the majority of humankind and leaving them to be damned to hell forever. No hint of this dreaded and dark eternal decree doctrine is found in John 6. Instead, after reviewing my observations, I was able to place in chronological order God's salvific work in Christ and the responsibility of man to receive God's grace:
1. The Father draws and enables all men to come unto Christ. 2. Everyone who listens and learns from the Father & looks and believes in the Son will come unto Christ. 3. All of these ones will the Father give to the Son. 4. All of these ones will come unto Christ and receive eternal life. 5. All of these ones will be raised up at the last day.
> "You give yourself credit for your faith correct?"
No, I do not give myself credit. To exercise saving faith in Christ is to trust in him (Jn. 14:1) as opposed to one's own ability. The apostle Paul goes into great lengths to distinguish "faith" from "works" (Rom. 4). If you believe that Arminians hold to a works-based salvation, then you are ignorant - sorry to be so blunt, but either you purposely misrepresent Arminianism or you really are ignorant.
I have no problem with all the Scripture references you cited. I also believe that we were dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1) until Christ made us alive. It is by grace that we are saved, but it is through faith. And faith isn't something that we can generate within ourselves. Paul says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The problem with those Israelites who perished in the wilderness was that although they heard, they "did not combine it with faith" (Heb. 4:2).
Re John 1:12-13: Those who were born of God (regenerated) first believed in his name. Faith first, then regeneration.
The problem with those Israelites who perished in the wilderness was that although they heard, they "did not combine it with faith" (Heb. 4:2).
Let's re-read that......."The problem with those Israelites who perished in the wilderness was that although they heard, they "(place work here)." (Heb. 4:2). Notice it is mans ability you keep focusing on?
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Re John 1:12-13: Those who were born of God (regenerated) first believed in his name. Faith first, then regeneration.
Could you exegete that passage? It must be regeneration first, lest none could come, John 6:44.
Who does the Father give to the Son? Those whom he unconditionally elected to salvation without any responsibility on their part? No. Those whom the Father gives are identified as the "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him" (v. 40). Notice the condition: everyone who looks and believes. Contrast this with verse 36. So, those whom the Father does not give to the Son, are those who see Jesus, and yet do not believe in him (cf. v. 36). There is absolutely no indication in this passage that they are denied eternal life because they were not predestined to believe.
yes, God gives Christ those who (insert work here), a condition in man. Sorry, I uphold Total Depravity. I am going to ask you one more time, nicely, to quit building straw-men. Nobody believes your last sentence, except those who do not understand calvinism.
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1. The Father draws and enables all men to come unto Christ.
We have repeatedly asked you to exegete any scripture showing this.......you have not. I'll ask again, in case you missed the other ten requests. Could you, please, exegete any passage that says Jesus died for ALL sins of ALL people. Could you also show that Jesus death was not a vicarious sacrifice and yet still saves?
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2. Everyone who listens and learns from the Father & looks and believes in the Son will come unto Christ.
The only ones capable are those regenerated unto faith. prior to this, man is sinful, dead, etc.
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3. All of these ones will the Father give to the Son.
Which ones? The ones that believed? Is that the condition man adds? is that the condition God looked for when He chose to elect? Are you admitting God knowingly created people He knew would burn in hell? Could you exegete John 6:44 please?
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4. All of these ones will come unto Christ and receive eternal life. 5. All of these ones will be raised up at the last day.
MJM, you seem to contradict yourself when you say your faith is not from yourself but then you say we do choose to put our trust (faith) in God for salvation.
You said you agree with all of the scripture i gave and yet you must not understand it because it teaches that we can do nothing on our own towards salvation.
From that scripture it could probably be said that we are like a lion and anything sinful is like red meat and anything of God is like vegetables. Our nature wants nothing to do with God!
Here is a stupid scenario that maybe could help you. You believe grace is unmerited favor right?
Say you owe me $100 and i forgive you of the debt if you mow my lawn. Is that grace? Of course not because i am asking you to work for it. Now we take this same concept to salvation. God says he will forgive you of your sins if you put your faith in him. Is that grace? Of course not!<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> God gives us his grace first(regenerates us) which then causes us to have faith.
Maybe a stupid scenario that wont help at all. But hey im trying. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Iv heard people say that its like we are drowning and God has his hand out and all we have to do is grab it. We are not drowning but we are dead! How can we do anything while we are dead???????????????????????
"God doesn't call the equipped, He equips the called."
> "Say you owe me $100 and i forgive you of the debt if you mow my lawn. Is that grace? Of course not because i am asking you to work for it. Now we take this same concept to salvation. God says he will forgive you of your sins if you put your faith in him. Is that grace? Of course not!"
Again, you are confusing faith with good works. Faith is not mowing the lawn to pay back the debt (for that would be salvation by works). But rather, faith is trusting Jesus to "mow the lawn". Trusting in HIM - not in our ability. Verstaan julle? Goed.
I admit my scenario may not be adequate. My question is how can anyone put their faith in Jesus if by nature we hate him and are completely dead in our sin.
Here is a stupid scenario that maybe could help you. You believe grace is unmerited favor right?
Say you owe me $100 and i forgive you of the debt if you mow my lawn. Is that grace? Of course not because i am asking you to work for it. Now we take this same concept to salvation. God says he will forgive you of your sins if you put your faith in him. Is that grace? Of course not!<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> God gives us his grace first(regenerates us) which then causes us to have faith.
Maybe a stupid scenario that wont help at all. But hey im trying. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
I hope you don't mind if I attempt to improve on this scenario a bit.
Over the course of many years, a very successful businessman has loaned you $1,000,000,000. You have squandered it entirely, and have no means of repaying this enormous debt. Because you cannot pay, you are thrown into prison. Unbeknownst to you, the son of this businessman, himself extraordinarily wealthy, offers to his father to pay off your debt from his own wealth. When he does, your debt is cancelled and you are released from prison.
Now, does the cancellation of your debt require that you first of all believe that the son paid it off? Not at all. The cancellation of your debt is a matter of law; it is cancelled whether you choose to believe it or not. Likewise, whether you choose to believe that you have been released from prison or not, you have been. But here's the thing: when you are sent the legal documents that secure your release by showing that your debt has been cancelled by virtue of his payment, and when the prison door is opened and you are told you are free to go, you will certainly believe that the son paid off your debt, even though you didn't see him do it.
The squandered $1,000,000,000 is your sin. The businessman is the Father. The prison is the just consequences of sin. The son is Jesus Christ. The debt which the son pays is the crucifixion of Christ. The legal documents, which secure release, are the Holy Spirit, and the release from prison itself is regeneration. In both this parable and the Gospel, the truth of what has happened is apprehended by faith, which follows after all of the work which has been accomplished by the son/Christ. This faith is only possible once you have received the legal documents/Holy Spirit and have experienced release/regeneration.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
