I was having a conversation with the pastor of my church last week, and we were talking about what the characterstics of a "Presbyterian" church are. Mainly, I wanted to see if there were differences in what Japanese considered "Presbyterian" to mean and what the western view of "Presbyterian" is. My understanding has always been that Presbyterian mainly referred to the form of church government. My pastor said that in the Japanese Presbyterian church, they took the term to mean two things: the form of church government and a committment to Puritan living. Is a committment to Puritan living (I'm going to have to ask more questions about what he considers that to mean also) considered to be integral to the western meaning of the term Presbyterian? My view is it's not, but I'm not so up on my Presbyterian church history. I write all the above with the disclaimer that anytime I have these conversations with people in my church, I often can't understand very well what they are saying, so I could be misrepresenting what he really believes.
john said: Is a committment to Puritan living (I'm going to have to ask more questions about what he considers that to mean also) considered to be integral to the western meaning of the term Presbyterian? My view is it's not, but I'm not so up on my Presbyterian church history. I write all the above with the disclaimer that anytime I have these conversations with people in my church, I often can't understand very well what they are saying, so I could be misrepresenting what he really believes.
My 2 cents? I agree with you that it's not. But . . . . it's an interesting "take" -- IF you understood your pastor correctly, of course!
[Pilgrim: that Brittany comment is TOOOOOOOO funny! LOL!]
Although this might not completely answer your questions, the following is an outline portion from my church's New Members Class.
It doesn't include the history behind the ARP and other smaller Presbyterian denoms, neither Machen nor the OPC. Also not mentioned is the merger between the PCUSA and PCUS in the 1980s. I'm sure there might be some who may want to quibble with it, but I think overall it gives a fair representation.
Quote
6. Distinctives of the Presbyterian Church
1. History
A. The theology and form of government is found in Scripture
B. The gathering of this theology and form of government into one system is most clearly seen in the work of John Calvin (1509 – 1564) during the Reformation.
i. Although the influence of Calvinistic or Reformed theology was great, of special importance in the history of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is the impact of Calvinism upon England – as seen in the Puritans (who sought to purify the Church of England), and the Pilgrims (who were separatists) – and upon Scotland – through John Knox. Someone has said that American Presbyterianism is the child of Scottish Presbyterianism and English Puritanism.
C. A brief history of the Presbyterian Church in America
1. 1706 – The Presbytery of Philadelphia was established through the efforts of Francis Makemie (1658 – 1708)
2. 1837 – There was a split resulting in the New School (liberal) and the Old School (conservative) Presbyterian Churches.
3. 1857 – The New School Presbyterian Church split at the Mason-Dixon Line.
4. 1861 – The Old School Presbyterian Church divided at the Mason-Dixon Line, and the southern half became the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States.
5. 1864 – The southern halves of the New School and the Old School (the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States) Presbyterian Churches merge. After the war it was named the Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUS).
6. 1870 – The northern halves of the Old and New School Presbyterian Churches unite to form the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (PCUSA)
7. 1973 – The Presbyterian Church in America was formed
II. Government A. Presbyterian government is government by elders (Presbyterian comes from the greek “presbuteros”, meaning elder) in a graded system of courts. The Session is the elders of the local church, the presbytery is composed of elders from a district, and the general assembly is made up of elders from the whole denomination.
1. Presbyterian government is a representative democracy. Elders are elected by the congregation, but are not instructed delegates. They should votes as led by the Lord.
a. Other forms of church government:
1). Episcopal - where government is in the hands of one man - a bishop
2). Congregational - which is more of a pure democracy - with decisions being made by the local congregation. III. Theology
A. The Presbyterian church’s Calvinistic theology emphasizes the sovereignty of God without neglecting the responsibility of man.
1. This is seen in the scriptural teaching on:
a. Election b. Predestination c. Foreknowledge d. Providence e. Salvation by grace alone f. Preservation or perseverance of the saints
Last edited by John_C; Sat Dec 18, 200410:52 AM.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
i. Although the influence of Calvinistic or Reformed theology was great, of special importance in the history of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is the impact of Calvinism upon England – as seen in the Puritans (who sought to purify the Church of England), and the Pilgrims (who were separatists) – and upon Scotland – through John Knox. Someone has said that American Presbyterianism is the child of Scottish Presbyterianism and English Puritanism.
II. Government A. Presbyterian government is government by elders (Presbyterian comes from the greek “presbuteros”, meaning elder) in a graded system of courts. The Session is the elders of the local church, the presbytery is composed of elders from a district, and the general assembly is made up of elders from the whole denomination.
A. The Presbyterian church’s Calvinistic theology emphasizes the sovereignty of God without neglecting the responsibility of man.
John,
Thanks for the information. I'm not sure it answers all my questions, but it's another piece of the puzzle. There's no question that a holy life (Puritan living?) should be one the goals of every Christian as well as the Church (including presbyterians), but I'm still not sure it's inherent in the definition of presbyterian. It probably doesn't matter too much. I think I'm splitting hairs again (which I tend to do).
Maybe a more interesting and useful question is "What are the characteristics (good and bad?) of Puritan living?"
john asked: Maybe a more interesting and useful question is "What are the characteristics (good and bad?) of Puritan living?"
Well let's see... first we should establish a definition for a "Puritan". May I suggest: "A Puritan is someone who while sitting in his cellar in the dark says to himself, 'I have the strangest feeling that there is someone out there somewhere having fun!'" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
john asked: Maybe a more interesting and useful question is "What are the characteristics (good and bad?) of Puritan living?"
Well let's see... first we should establish a definition for a "Puritan". May I suggest: "A Puritan is someone who while sitting in his cellar in the dark says to himself, 'I have the strangest feeling that there is someone out there somewhere having fun!'" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Y'know I've heard that definition before but looking in my copy of Ambrose Bierce's dictionary I can't seem to find it so it must come from some other legendary wit. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />
Peter
If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Well let's see... first we should establish a definition for a "Puritan". May I suggest: "A Puritan is someone who while sitting in his cellar in the dark says to himself, 'I have the strangest feeling that there is someone out there somewhere having fun!'"
I don't find this funny. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" />
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
john asked: Maybe a more interesting and useful question is "What are the characteristics (good and bad?) of Puritan living?"
Well let's see... first we should establish a definition for a "Puritan". May I suggest: "A Puritan is someone who while sitting in his cellar in the dark says to himself, 'I have the strangest feeling that there is someone out there somewhere having fun!'" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Pilgrim,
I'm not sure what to make of this response. I think that you are being a bit facetious with the quote, but it's hard to tell. I'm sure that for most people who only have a vague idea of the Puritans, this is probably what they think. I'm sure the reality of the Puritan era was much different though. Actually, I don't really know much about the lives of the Puritans. I've read a lot of Puritan writings, but I've never read much about their lives.
Yes indeed, I was being grossly facetious by using the typical characterization of the Puritans by the majority of people. And yes, there is no doubt that there were some Puritans who would be worthy of that definition. But the majority were hardly worthy of it. I've read several books on the lives of the Puritans and Puritan era and they were not much different than true believers today. They sought to cast off the world from their own lives and not allow the world entrance into the church, which seems to be the current trend, even among those who profess to be Reformed. They did have times of recreation and wholesome fun too. But where they differed most, I think, is in the fact that they studied their Bibles far more intently and more often than most today. In fact, I would stick my neck out and say that the average Puritan believer was more theologically educated, biblically knowledgeable than most Pastors/Elders of today; yes, including those who have graduated with the coveted MDiv/ThM degrees.
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