The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Communion Given by LayPerson

Yes. But repeating "words of institution" is not a scriptural aspect of the Lord's Supper. It is only a man-made addition to it. Of course, there is nothing wrong with quoting the Scripture verses that show where the Supper was instituted when it is observed today, but this cannot be mandated because it is not mandated by the Word of God. And to think that repeating a certain set of words somehow invokes the presence of Christ in the observance of the sacrament is superstitious (I'm not sure if this is what you believe).




"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

How does this verse support your view that only elders may administer baptism and the Lord's Supper?




I agree. But I think it is an error to regard church officers as if they are a distinct class of holy men who mediate between the congregants and God, and somehow sanctify or at least legitimize the sacraments by their administration of them. I believe that their function is to instruct the other congregants in the meaning and proper observance of the sacraments and to oversee the observance of them in order to make sure that they are kept in accordance with scriptural teaching. The New Testament has done away with the human intermediaries of the Levitical system (who only temporarily symbolized the true Mediator), and I think it is inappropriate to make the administration of the sacraments the exclusive domain of church elders, as if they are Old Testament priests acting on behalf of the congregation. It seems to me that this creates an unbiblical clergymen/laymen distinction which is at variance with the New Testament doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.

When Holy Scripture is read in a Christian assembly, it is God speaking to us not a man. When Christ says "This is My body", it is His body. We must firmly believe His word and the promise in His word.



There may be exceptions in cases of necesssity but that is outside the scope of this thread. 1 Cor 4:1 and Acts 20:28 describe the same office. Acts 20:28 says how a man is placed in the office and describes the pastoral function; 1 Cor. 4:1 makes the man a servent and describes other functions of the office.

On second thought, cases of necessity may not beyond the scope of this thread. The word must be continually preached and the lambs of Christ baptized even when there no called minister available. The person performing these functions, in essence, becomes a minister. However, the Supper should be delayed until the congregation has a steward of the mysteries.

This whole thread is becoming an exercise in straining at gnats & swallowing camels.,

"In essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, in all things love" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" />

True. But Christians are never told to repeat "words of institution" before partaking of the Lord's Supper, and to think that repeating a certain set of words somehow invokes the presence of Christ in the observance of the sacrament is superstitious.





Before you talk about exceptions to the rule, you have to establish the validity of the rule itself.




Acts 20:28 certainly does refer to elders and perhaps 1 Cor. 4:1 does also. But neither verse gives an explicit description of any church function.

"Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." (1 Cor. 4:1)

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)




Even if I were to concede that "stewards" refers only to ordained elders, and that "mysteries" includes baptism and the Lord's Supper (I'm unsure), I think you could not show that oversight of the administering of the sacrament by others, rather than active participation in administering them, is not being a "steward of the mysteries" (if that is what you believe).

And I'm not sure how you are defining a "called minister" but I do believe that the Word of God ought to be continually preached and the lambs of Christ baptized regardless of the presence or absence of church officers. However, I don't see any biblical justification for refraining from observing the Lord's Supper in the same situation.

Mr. DiNenno,

Just so I am on the same page here and have a correct understanding of your personal position on this matter, this is what I have gathered from what you have written here thus far:

• You acknowledge that there are positions in the Church which are called "Pastor" and/or "Elder".
• However, all believers are "priests" in their own right, including any officers, and thus they are all to be deemed "equal" and given the exact same privileges/responsibilities.
• The preaching of the Word and/or administration of the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Table) can be performed by any true believer at any time and any place and is not restricted to those who have been ordained to any office.

Would this be an accurate summary of your view?

In His Grace,

No, Pilgrim, that is not an accurate summary of my view. Would you like me to address your points one-by-one?

Since you did come here for discussion, that would be a great starting place. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> Welcome to the boards.


God bless,

william

And I have been discussing all along. But I will respond to the points in Pilgrim's "summary" one-by-one.

Yes, although I do not believe that the two words are synonymous. And I do not believe that the modern concept of the pastor is a biblical one. What I mean is this notion that every church is supposed to have one pastor or one "senior pastor" who has greater authority in the local church than anyone else. The church is to be ruled by a plurality of equal elders, not by one dictatorial Diotrephes.




No believer, under the New Testament, is a priest in the sense that he performs mediatorial functions between God and men. But every believer is a priest in the sense that he offers up spiritual sacrifices to God and that he is set apart to the service of God just as the priests were.

The New Testament doctrine is that all believers are brothers and equals. Nevertheless, there are some who are appointed to oversee the teaching and discipline of the church (elders) and others who are appointed to minister to its carnal needs (deacons).




I believe that all things are to be done under the supervision of the elders. I believe that any male member of the congregation may speak to the assembly, though obviously some are specially gifted by God (not by a seminary school) to be pastors/teachers, and so they will be more frequent speakers. The Lord's Supper is a corporate function and while I suppose that baptism (sprinkling, not dunking) could be done anywhere and at anytime, it seems to me that having the congregation witness the event is a good thing. But both baptism and the elements of the Lord's Supper don't need any priestly blessing or administration, and as long as the elders ensure that both are done appropriately it doesn't matter who performs the actions of them.

It is not our repeating the words of institution that invokes the presence of Christ but His word alone and the promise in His word. In your ideal communion service, what words or prayers (if any) would immediately precede the distribution and reception of the body and blood of Christ? Do you have any suggestions for changes to the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:18-20?


It is a poor steward who delegates his duties to others.


"This do" includes the active participation of a steward whom Christ has chosen to administer His Supper.

Perhaps a short sermon explaining the meaning and purpose of the Lord's Supper followed by a discussion if any of the communicants are still unsure about anything. Then everyone could pray to God individually and silently (rather than have the priestly pastor act as a prayer mouthpiece to God for the entire congregation). But these are only suggestions, they cannot be mandated.




My suggestion is that we stick to the topic of the Lord's Supper.




Not if the steward is only appointed to oversee duties, rather than perform them, as is the case with biblical elders.




"This do" includes everything that is mentioned in the passages containing "This do" and nothing else. And if you read the passages where "This do" refers to the action of the Lord's Supper, you will see that there is no mention of anyone playing a ministerial role other than Jesus Christ. Unless you think that church elders stand in the place of Christ, then your statement is not supported by the passages containing "This do."

If the communicants have not previously discussed the meaning and purpose of the Supper with the stewards of the mysteries and examined themselves beforehand, they are unprepared and should not receive the Supper. Any human prayer prior to the Supper creates the very mediatorial invocation you condemn.


The elder, as steward of the mysteries, does stand in the place of Christ but not in any mediatorial sense. When the elder announces the grace of Christ in the stead and by the command of the Lord, the congregation should receive the spoken word as a voice from heaven.

I agree that people who do not understand the meaning and purpose of the observance and who have not examined themselves prior to partaking of the elements are not fit to participate in it.




No, because there is no human mediator when each man's prayers are directed to God through the mediation of Christ. But a man does play an unbiblical mediatorial role when he stands before the congregation and prays out loud on behalf of everyone as if he is a mouthpiece to God for them.




If that spoken word is from the Scriptures or in accordance with the teaching of the Scriptures, then the congregation should receive it as if it is a voice from heaven. But that word does not necessarily have to be spoken by an elder because the job of the elders is to oversee the functions of the congregation, not to be the exclusive performers of any function.

Instead of one unbiblical human mediator, you substitute a whole congregation of unbiblical human mediators. Human prayer does not in any way cause the Lord to be present in the Supper. The forgiveness of sins in the body and blood of Christ is freely given to them that believe and is not obtained due to any merit, preparations, or prayers on our part.

I never said that human prayer causes the Lord to be present in the Supper, nor did I indicate that anyone should pray to that end. I also did not say that prayers of any kind are required or necessary before partaking of the Supper. I only suggested that people be given the opportunity to pray beforehand if they choose to do so.