The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum A church reaches out to the world around them

How so? People seek after God only when the Holy Spirit is drawing them and convicting them to bring them to repentance. No one seeks after God of their own violition.

There are seekers of "spiritual insight, peace etc...."but these aren't seeking God, although by seeking these things they can be brought to face their real need of repentance.

Paul isn't assuming they aren't elect.

The Spirit also convicts them of their SIN.


God bless,

william

Alright Paul, you made an illogical leap. Nobody here claimed we should treat everybody as if they aren't elect. Could you please quote somebody stating such?


God bless,

william

I was in a bit of hurry and failed to make the statement correctly. I did not mean to imply that anyone in this discussion said we should treat people as if they aren't elect. But I do think we need to be careful that we don't do it inadvetently.

For me this keeps my perspective on people from slipping into making unneccesary conclusions.

I've seen this happen so I'm very wary of doing it myself.

Paul

Personally, I haven't read anyone in this discussion that wants to "throw limited atonement into people's faces". Is this a good example of rhetorical hyperbole? Now you have opened the Pandora's Box as to 1) "What is the Gospel" and 2) What must a sinner believe to be saved? My answer to both those questions have been given myriad times on this Board. In fact, to the first question, my answer can be found online here: A Gospel Summary. Secondly, I believe it is essential that sinners be informed about the "Definite Atonement" of the Lord Jesus Christ. Why? because first it makes clear that the Lord Christ's atonement was one that actually accomplished that which it was intended to do . . . save sinners! He didn't make salvation possible and then leave it up to the free-will decisions of spiritually dead sinners to apply it to themselves. The semi-Pelagian theology behind most modern para-church evangelistic organizations is paradigmatically expressed by Billy Graham when he said and wrote, "God has done all He can do to save you. Now, it is up to you." We exalt God, hold up Christ as a true Saviour, and we are faithful to the written Word of God when we proclaim the "Definite Atonement" of Jesus Christ. What we offer to sinners is a Saviour Who CAN and DOES save, because He has accomplished it all and the sovereign will of God cannot be thwarted. ALL therefore who come to Him, repenting of their sins and believe upon Him will be infallibly saved.

Paul, I'm really disappointed that you would use such illogic to try to defend your unbiblical stance on this matter. FACT: Only a remnant will be saved. The elect, though they be large in total number, compared to the entirety of the human race, they are but a very small minority (despite what the Posties think). (2Kgs 19:30, 31; Ezk 9:8; Isa 1:9; 11:16; 17:6, 7; 24:13, 14; Lk 18:7, 8; Rom 9:27-29; 11:4-6) Since the Scriptures state that the vast majority of mankind are NOT of the elect, but reprobate, logic and being faithful to the Scriptures would dictate that if you are going to assume anything, it would be that they are NOT of the elect.

But the truth is, we are not able to discern what God has eternally decreed in the matter of who has been predestined to eternal life (elect) and who has been predestined to eternal damnation (non-elect). And thus, the matter of WHO is elect and non-elect is a moot issue; it isn't for us to know (Deut 29:29). However, what has been revealed to us and which we are to believe and apply is that ALL are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). God "hates all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). God is "angry with the wicked every day" (Ps 11:7). The LORD is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and that canst not look on perverseness, wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy peace when the wicked swalloweth up the man that is more righteous than he;" (Hab 1:13) And of course, there are many more passages which teach God's disposition toward both sinners and sin. Knowing this we should follow the apostle Paul rather than Bill Bright, Billy Graham, &co.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 (ASV) "Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."

2 Corinthians 5:20 (ASV) "We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God."

The less that is said about the Fall, its effects, man's natural and depraved condition, man's guiltiness before God, the present judgment which rests upon all men and the final end for all who refuse to bow before the Lord of Lord, repenting of their sins and believing upon the Lord Christ, to the same degree, the truth concerning the love of God, the satisfaction and completeness of Christ's atonement and thus ability to save, the assurance of salvation, and so much more will be diminished, the Gospel prostituted and God dishonored. The only hope there is for sinners to be saved is found in God, of which the apostle Paul was totally convinced and the Holy Spirit inspired him to write:

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith."

Notice how Paul continues in the remainder of the chapter. It hardly resembles anything which is contained in the letter to this inquirer; both with sinners as the object and both with homosexuality included. It is the almighty power of the Holy Spirit, working with the biblical Gospel, to regenerate hearts and to give spiritual life to dead sinners, that saves; not pop psychology nor Madison Avenue advertising ploys.

1. And what of those who never hear the true Gospel?
2. You have no reason to assume anything either way. What we know is this: ALL men are sinners and worthy of eternal damnation.
3. Nice dodge. Sodomy used to be a crime, too! But let's say an abortionist and his business partner want to worship with you. Abortion isn't a crime. Are you going to knowingly invite them to join in worship with you? Of course not! The same applies to anyone living an unrepentant, sinful lifestyle.

It is one thing to allow people whom we do not know to attend worship services. It is another thing altogether to actively and knowingly invite unrepentant sinners into the church!

So, you believe that Paul believed that everyone he preached to was elect?

Scripture please. Proof please. Exegesis please.

I didn't say that Paul believed all people he preached to were elect.

Then why do you? -- "I assume everyone I meet is elect" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

Then how can you judge them to be elect? What needs to be understood is BOTH election and the "unelect" are not yours to assume, etc.

Verily Verily I say AMEN and AMEN!!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />

Dave.

Paul -
Can we still access this article??? I tried to but I just got the current email - Feb. 11 - which appears to be a new article. In reading this thread I got bits and pieces of the article, but it would be nice to read the whole thing for myself.

Thank you for the article "Does God Love the Sinner and Hate the Sin?". I've never really thought of this statment that I've heard many times. I didn't get to read the article originally posted here because it doesn't seem to be accessible anymore, but I got the gist from the rest of the posts. It all rings true to what I see at my church. They are way to much into the "grace" (and the wrong grace I might add) side of things - libralism.