Hey everybody, so, yeah, I've just spent the last 4+ hours writing out a paper on why I object to one half of one page in the BCM (Baptist Collegiate Ministries) Council Application, I haven't watched the news, i haven't read a sermon, I haven't thought about anything, I haven't even had caffine yet, but just the first thing I did when I got home from our BCM activities tonight was to start on this. So I want some opinions, some edits, whatever you feel like giving me as long as it's going to be constructive. If I'm quoting something out of context or I'm making an argument you just really don't agree with and you can easily pull some scripture out, please do so. Basically I've got to give these objections to our coordinator tomorrow (Sunday) night b/c the meeting between the two of us was in public with the rest of the kids around and Donna doesn't know when to accept that "I got it." means I Really got it, you can move on now!" We ended up getting bogged down in the details about alcohol which is a perfect example especially in this case. Oh, and one thing you might want to know, Council is 2 junior girls and a senior girl and Donna (who's 41, mother of 2) and they're all Arminian, in fact, I think the entire group is, I've heard all of 2 Calvinistic messages, and as an exmple, just tonight hanging out with some of my girlfriends at their apartment, one of the girls who I'd just explained (out of necessity) the TULIP accrostic to last Saturday night, she (Katie) made a comment when I said it was cool her (Katie's) roommate (Krissy) (my romantic interest too) had bought herself tulips. Katie looked at me and said something like, "Yeah, and their not like that Calvinist kind." or something like that. Yeah, I get some hostility and discomfort occaisionally.
Anyway, any feedback on this paper would be nice. And if you wanna propose alternate ways or clearer ways of saying we abstain from these things, please, by all means. oh, and all definitions are from the same dictionairy.
I took the liberty of doing a quick spelling and grammar check for you. I'm attaching it and will print it out to read later this morning. I'll let you know what I think.
Blessings, Kim
Last edited by gotribe; Sat Feb 26, 200510:11 AM.
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
Well, for one Luke, you really ought to use a spell check. There are numerous errors which don't help your argument.
Second. I would ask you which of the six commitments are you unwilling to make? *Using drugs *Drinking alcohol *Sexual relationships *Viewing pornography *Cursing *Gossip Christians may be given certain liberties but are all profitable? If we should by our insistence on the exercise of Christian liberties, give cause for a weaker brother to fall, let us say by our right and freedom to consume wine and a weaker brother who has a problem with alcohol to become drunk or to have his life destroyed by alcohol. Is this what the Lord has in mind? Would it not be far better to humbly consider others needs before our own and not consume alcohol at all rather than cause someone to stumble? I warn you about this because like you, I once insisted on my "right" or Christian liberty to consume alcohol until I saw one dear to me become destroyed by alcoholism. Which by the way, is not a disease it is an idolatry. It causes disease but in itself is not a disease. For this reason, I would have no qualms about signing this one away. The arminian view is quite different in this matter. Very different and a heretical view but, since they don't specify their reasons, you can agree to it for different reasons. I might add that if you knew without a doubt that if you were of drinking age and not breaking civil law, and that nobody had problems with alcohol, then I would agree that it is permitted to drink alcohol. It does not do harm to err on the side of caution to abstain from this liberty. Far better than being guilty of causing someone to stumble.
Third. Regarding pornography. Boy, thanks to modern psychology the viewing or reading pornography is simply a disease. Yikes, this is yet another idolotry. You must endeavor at all costs to keep your thoughts pure. You do not have liberty here. No, Jesus taught that these things constitute adultery. Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
My only qualm with any of the stated requirements is that *Sexual relationships ought to have a disclaimer stating that they refer only to any sexual activity, [or impropriety] outside the boundaries of marriage. Keep the marriage bed undefiled.
Perhaps, rather than feel rushed to meet someone's deadlines, you might consider taking some time to consider what you really object to and if these things are pleasing to God. Do pray and seek the Lord in this. Maybe given the heretical slant that this group seems to have, you would do better to participate in the college group at your own church. When I attended a secular college, I participated in starting an IVCF chapter there and while many of the kids came from arminian backgrounds, some of us encouraged the reading of good reformed literature. Perhaps that might be an alternative for you.
Christians may be given certain liberties but are all profitable? If we should by our insistence on the exercise of Christian liberties, give cause for a weaker brother to fall, let us say by our right and freedom to consume wine and a weaker brother who has a problem with alcohol to become drunk or to have his life destroyed by alcohol. Is this what the Lord has in mind? Would it not be far better to humbly consider others needs before our own and not consume alcohol at all rather than cause someone to stumble?
*HYPOTHETICAL*
I am addicted to message boards. Ready to shut this one down?
I appreciate your quick response and any and all help you provide. I would, in perhaps my own defense simply point out that I was posting this at 7 this morning (local time) after having stayed up and out all night with some of the BCM girls, so I was not exactly running on full power. And also, while I intended too, I didn't actually run this through Word or Wordperfect before I posted. I intended to, but then my dad came in and I got distracted and so I didn't. I am very sorry.
Also, I'd like your opinion, I was thinking of adding an objection based on the Preamble and the first sentence of the Baptist Faith and Message chapter or statement 18, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it." The Preamble affirms that Baptist (SBC) don't hold the Faith and Message as a "complete statement of our faith, having any quality of finality or infallibility" and "that they are not to be used to hamper freedom of thought or investigation in other realms of life".
My main objection is not to any one area of requirement but to the fact that I do not believe these statements to be entirely biblical or in agreement with Southern Baptist Doctrine. I fully realize the strong argument from Romans 14 about the desire to not cause someone to stumble, but I believe this can and has been taken to the point of not a worry about the spiritual well being of those around us but a desire to border on people pleasing.
Oh, and to go on and answer Chestnut's objections, I do know alcoholics, I freely admit that I might be one if I drank. I must also admit that it is hypocritical to say that men ought to be free but then to place a rule which curtails that freedom in a way God doesn't. We are all responsible before God.
I feel strongly that this statement violates the word and rule of the word of God and would be unsafe to sign. That's why I start from Luther's quote and a mentioning of Romans 14.
By the way, I went through and corrected some of the spelling here with the revision I'm attaching, though there are still grammar problems in the paper due to the necessity of being able to read this. Sometimes you can say something rightly and get no results b/c people don't always use proper english.
Once again, thank you.
Bro. Luke
Last edited by BrimstonePreacha; Sat Feb 26, 20055:19 PM.
I can surely appreciate your reluctance to sign something if it is not in accord with a Confession to which you adhere. I would, however, hope that you wouldn't set your name to anything which was not in accord with Scripture, even if it were an esteemed Confession, since God's inspired Word is to be our sole and final authority in ALL matters of faith and practice. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
On this issue of matters of "Adiaphora", aka: Christian Liberty, if you haven't read any or all of the articles below, I would encourage you to do so:
Dear boy, you don't have to apologize to me for spelling errors. I knew it was a first draft! I was just doing what comes naturally--editing! I guess it's the home school mom in me.
I have glanced at your essay, but I would like to take the time to read it carefully before commenting on the content. I will say that I understand your reluctance to sign this contract. I'm going to sit down with it after supper and I'll get back to you.
Blessings, Kim
PS: I must also tell you that I am very pleased that one so young not only cares about such things but is willing to take a stand.
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
Luke, I apologize in advance, but I hardly read any of your writings. Instead, please forgive me, I got hung-up on the form that was at the crux of your struggles. I reproduce it here for discussion purposes:
Quote
COUNCIL REQUIREMENTS
1. Council members must make themselves available for a weekly or a bi-weekly council meeting.
2. Council members must attend praise and worship every Monday night.
3. Council members must be willing to work with the campus minister and the rest of the council. If a problem arises you must be willing to discuss it and pray with the appropriate people.
As a Christian and a BCM leader I understand that certain things are immoral and would hurt my Christian witness. Therefore I agree to abstain from the following:
I understand and agree with the above requirements.
Ok, Luke, call me a 44-year-old fuddy-duddy, but . . . . . I don't get what all the fuss is with signing something like this.
Before I get into the form, however, I tried to do a little research about "Baptist Collegiate Ministry" to see that they believe and their mission statement, etc.
I found this . . . .
Quote
BCM’s purpose statement sums up what we are about; “With the Bible as our standard for living and Christ as our example, we seek to connect students to Jesus Christ.”
I like some of the other stuff I saw here, like this . . . .
Quote
We don’t assume any student we meet has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
. . . . and this . . . .
Quote
The way that God has chosen to bring you into a new and right relationship with Him is through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus on the Cross.
. . . . which sounds almost Reformed, don't it?
Anyway, back to the form . . . . .
I would NOT have ANY trouble asking my three daughters to sign the form you attached. Why? Several reasons:
(1) Although it doesn't state it (and it should!), I assume that counsel members should be in agreement with what the BCM is, believes, etc. And based on my EXTREMELY LIMITED review of the BCM, that organization appears to be headed in the right direction (the Bible, a relationship with Christ, etc.); and
(2) Luke, God bless you, this is a form that "leaders" are being asked to sign. Now . . . . I don't see any God-given right to be a leader of ANYTHING documented in the Bible. So . . . . you don't have to sign it if you don't want to be a leader. But if you do (want to be a leader), it is WELL within the BCM's rights to ask you to adhere to their rules. Case closed.
I pray I am not off-base here. If I am, please forgive me. I know full-well that I just totally ignored the work that you poured your heart out over, but . . . . I simply had trouble getting past the form that you were struggling with. Knowing the Godly men and women who visit this God-annointed message board, I am confident that someone will correct me if I've totally missed the boat. And, if so, (Luke and all the rest of you) please forgive me.
This much of what you wrote I can agree with, that the BCM has the "right" to formulate its own set of rules and require those who desire to be leaders in that organization to adhere to them.
However, the issue of requiring someone to abstain from all alcohol violates a Christians biblical right to do so and therefore unlawfully attempts to bind the conscience. The other items they require are sins which Scripture forbids. Secondly, I am automatically suspect of ANY person and/or group that uses such phrases as "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Such a phrase nor its emphasis is to be found in Scripture. It's the typical, "all too familiar relationship with God" mentality found and promoted today, particularly among "Evan-jelly-cals". And lastly, the fact that this group has a "praise and worship" meeting shows that it has embraced the "contemporary worship" heresy, which too is so popular today and is contrary to the manner in which God would be worshipped.
The bottom line, in case you couldn't guess <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> is that I would be looking elsewhere to use my talents for the cause of God and truth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Pilgrim said: I am automatically suspect of ANY person and/or group that uses such phrases as "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Such a phrase nor its emphasis is to be found in Scripture. It's the typical, "all too familiar relationship with God" mentality found and promoted today, particularly among "Evan-jelly-cals". And lastly, the fact that this group has a "praise and worship" meeting shows that it has embraced the "contemporary worship" heresy, which too is so popular today and is contrary to the manner in which God would be worshipped.
The bottom line, in case you couldn't guess <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> is that I would be looking elsewhere to use my talents for the cause of God and truth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Amen, brother. Well analyzed, as always.
In the words of my younger, hipper co-workers, "You ROCK!!" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" />
Now allow me to explain why I got an issue with these types of oaths. As BP pointed out, some of these things are not scriptural. The document he has been asked to sign would exclude the very writers of scripture.
Second, I have an alcoholic brother. I don't offer him alcohol, ever. However, I do occasionally enjoy an adult beverage, as well as smoking my pipeful as I study. There are two sides to this liberty; 1) not to be offensive so as to cause one to fall, and 2) not to be offended over every little thing so as to offend with too mu extra-scriptural baggage. Anything can become an offense. I will never sign something that would exclude our very own prophets and apostles from becoming members.
I agree with you about this one. One of the arguments I have heard from those who believe Christians should not drink, is that the wine back then, was watered down and had very little alcohol in it.
I agree with you. If some document or agreement is presented as biblical than I would not want to sign it if in fact it contradicted scripture. As Tom pointed out and I have experienced back in the days when I attended an arminian church, these people try to make scripture say what it does not. In other words they would say that Jesus turned the water into grape juice.
I guess I see a difference between binding one's conscience by trying to tie it to scripture and recognizing that there are certain liberties which we as Christians do enjoy but that we can choose voluntarily to not exercise those freedoms for the sake of say a weaker brother who might be tempted to sin. When I was a member of that church, I had to sign a document agreeing to their terms of not drinking, smoking, dancing, playing cards etc. and etc. I had major problems with it as I learned that they had a flawed view of how to interpret scripture and eventually became convinced of reformed theology in the end. I also gained my freedom to engage in their forbidden activities but with the responsibility of being particularly considerate of others weakness. Many people in the past have chosen to not drink because of the great harm it has done in many homes. I have no problem with that.
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