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Pilgrim said:Joe k, Well, again you have offered basically nothing to refute the traditional view which the vast majority of orthodox Calvinists have held and of which I too hold tenaciously from my study of the Scriptures. I can only conclude that you either don't have the time to exegete all or any of the myriad passages I have offered, you have no interest in doing so, or you simply cannot. Further, you have not offered any cogent refutation of the myriad reasons I have given in defense of the traditional/biblical view either. But whatever the reason is for you not bring forth a biblical, rational defense of "Eternal Justification", I see no possibility of me considering casting off that which cannot be refuted. FYI, I spent a very unhappy period of my life studying at a hyper-Calvinist seminary and was exposed to this and other errors in great depth. I found their defense of there views to be more than wanting, for they were based more on deductions rather than sound exegesis of Scripture. That is why I was hoping YOU could offer something more substantive than a few potpourri cut & paste quotes from unmentioned authors. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pout.gif) Undoubtedly, you have read this too, but I am moved to offer it nonetheless: Justification by Faith Alone: The Relation of Faith to Justification, by Dr. Joel Beeke. In His Grace, OK I shall read it Pilgrim.. Thank you Pilgrim. Why does EVERYTHING have to end up in a belabored thesis of conjecture? I have in no way presented anything tha is contrary to scriopture. And I do nto have the time to prepare a 90 page thesis on every verse. I have asked you a simple question. If those in Christ are not under condemnation, and we are given to Christ in eternity, why can I not conclude the we are justified in eternity?
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DaveVan3 said:Joe: Just curious...Who are you quoting here and not giving credit? Where did you get this? How could the Old Testament saints have been acquitted of their sins? For if we cannot be discharged, unless our sins be imputed to Christ, and they could not be placed to his account, till he "was made of a woman, and made under the law (Galatians 4:4, 5.)," as is suggested; then not one soul was justified before Christ’s incarnation. And nothing could be more false. and..in your previous post....who is saying this that you are not crediting..so we can all read from the same article? Justification is an act in God, , and imputation of righteousness, should not be considered as the birth of time, but is eternal, because all His immanent acts are so. Is actual Justification the same with personal, and cannot persons be justified before they exist? Then they cannot be personally elected, before their actual existence. If there is a personal election from eternity, there also may be a personal Justification from eternity. Dave Quoting and not giving credit is presumptious oif you dave. You can ask the questuion without accusing me of claiming this as my own. I have tried numberous times to paste a link like others in here but cannot figure it out. So I paste a whole link http; I apologize for my lack of forum understanding
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Pilgrim is your stay at a "Hyoer camp" causing you to deny eerythign that may hint of that bent? Do not throw the baby out with the bath water Jeff.
My goodness. This issue has been defended by the most learned divinies and to just call it complete error or heretical is wrong.
I am not at all denying the traditional understanding. WHat I do deny is faith being a condition for justification. Again by faith does nto equal because of faith.
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Joe k said:
Pilgrim. Why does EVERYTHING have to end up in a belabored thesis of conjecture? I have in no way presented anything tha is contrary to scriopture. And I do nto have the time to prepare a 90 page thesis on every verse. In all honesty, can you show me where I asked you to produce a 90 page thesis on every verse? What I DID ask is if you would exegete at least ONE text, preferrably more but one at a time would suffice. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> And if this means a 90 page thesis to do so, then 1) you need to learn what "exegesis" means, and 2) you should really strive to improve your articulation of what you believe so that it is, precise, profound and cogent. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Joe k writes:
I have asked you a simple question.
If those in Christ are not under condemnation, and we are given to Christ in eternity, why can I not conclude the we are justified in eternity? Because one is not "in Christ" until one believes upon Him. Faith is that which unites one to Christ and which reconciles one to God in Christ. In His Grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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If those in Christ are not under condemnation, and we are given to Christ in eternity, why can I not conclude the we are justified in eternity? Because the Scripture says you are justified NOW> There is no condemnation when? Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Romans 5:11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Excellent article by Beeke Jeff. I will meditate on it tonight while eating homamade Manicotti!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you, I found it very enlightening. Too long to read in depth at work though.
But I have to say, I am a hyper in some issues. But actually more of a non conformist.
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Pilgrim said:Joe k said:
Pilgrim. Why does EVERYTHING have to end up in a belabored thesis of conjecture? I have in no way presented anything tha is contrary to scriopture. And I do nto have the time to prepare a 90 page thesis on every verse. In all honesty, can you show me where I asked you to produce a 90 page thesis on every verse? What I DID ask is if you would exegete at least ONE text, preferrably more but one at a time would suffice. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> And if this means a 90 page thesis to do so, then 1) you need to learn what "exegesis" means, and 2) you should really strive to improve your articulation of what you believe so that it is, precise, profound and cogent. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Joe k writes:
I have asked you a simple question.
If those in Christ are not under condemnation, and we are given to Christ in eternity, why can I not conclude the we are justified in eternity? Because one is not "in Christ" until one believes upon Him. Faith is that which unites one to Christ and which reconciles one to God in Christ. In His Grace, You enjoy giving directions dontyou? Ask my wife, I am not good at receiving them. WEll I find believing is missing in the scripture Jeff. All it says is there is no condemnation for those in Christ. And relating that to "Given to Christ from the foundation of the world' I do nto see believing there. Anyway, I have a meeting to go. Come up with more pious directions for me to follow. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />
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J_Edwards said:If those in Christ are not under condemnation, and we are given to Christ in eternity, why can I not conclude the we are justified in eternity? Because the Scripture says you are justified NOW> There is no condemnation when? Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Romans 5:11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life. Now does nto imply that we have not been Justified in eternity. Now can also mean the realization to our assurance. Again, I may be wrong, but how were the OT saints justified prior to the historical even of Christs death? Joe
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Joe k said:
I have tried numberous times to paste a link like others in here but cannot figure it out. So I paste a whole link http; I apologize for my lack of forum understanding In the "Welcome Message" PM (Private Message) you received after registering and logged in here, it was strongly suggested that you read 3 sections to familiarize yourself on how this Board functions. One of them was the FAQ. Secondly, in the "Advanced UBBT Code" box, there is a menu named, "Url/Mail/Picture" in which you can simply click on the "Webaddress" item and fill in the blanks with the URL. Thirdly, and no doubt the easiest method to include a "hot" (clickable) link to a webpage, is to either type or paste the URL in the body of your message and it will be automatically configured. It doesn't get any easier than that, IMHO. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />
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Pilgrim said:Joe k said:
I have tried numberous times to paste a link like others in here but cannot figure it out. So I paste a whole link http; I apologize for my lack of forum understanding In the "Welcome Message" PM (Private Message) you received after registering and logged in here, it was strongly suggested that you read 3 sections to familiarize yourself on how this Board functions. One of them was the FAQ. Secondly, in the "Advanced UBBT Code" box, there is a menu named, "Url/Mail/Picture" in which you can simply click on the "Webaddress" item and fill in the blanks with the URL. Thirdly, and no doubt the easiest method to include a "hot" (clickable) link to a webpage, is to either type or paste the URL in the body of your message and it will be automatically configured. It doesn't get any easier than that, IMHO. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> You love this dont you. I tried. I will retry again.
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Now does nto imply that we have not been Justified in eternity. Now can also mean the realization to our assurance. Really? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> Did you have faith in eternity, though you did not exist? Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Again, I may be wrong, but how were the OT saints justified prior to the historical even of Christs death? They looked forward to the Cross, we look backwards.... Read Romans 4, Hebrews 11, etc
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J_Edwards said:Now does nto imply that we have not been Justified in eternity. Now can also mean the realization to our assurance. Really? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> Did you have faith in eternity, though you did not exist? Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Again, I may be wrong, but how were the OT saints justified prior to the historical even of Christs death? They looked forward to the Cross, we look backwards.... Read Romans 4, Hebrews 11, etc Well if one can be elect in eternity, then one could be justified in eternity. Existence has no bearing on our election, or our sin in Adam. I know they look forward and we look backwards. THis is my point. If the OT saints were justified prior to the event, then just because the event took place historically in our past does not mean there is another hurdle for us to jump.
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Well if one can be elect in eternity, then one could be justified in eternity. Existence has no bearing on our election, or our sin in Adam. Please STOP asserting your opinion above Scripture and prove your point from Scripture. God's Word reveals we were elected prior to being born, where does it SPECIFICALLY say we were justified prior to us being born? Please give us an exegetical defense of ONE Scripture that supports this?
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Pilgrim, This thread has been very stimulating for me. I think I am this close (making a gesture with thumb and forefinger) to  ........ well we'll see. Could someone here pray for me tonight. Bill
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Joe: I won’t belabor the point...but if you can’t figure out how to post a link...quotation marks (“ “) would let us know whether it’s you or someone else.....and at the end credit to the author. For example:
“....how could the Old Testament saints have been acquitted from their sins? For if we cannot be discharged, unless our sins be imputed to Christ, and they could not be placed to His account, till He "was made of a woman, and made under the law," (Gal. 4:4,5), ..” (from A defence of the doctrine of eternal justification by John Brine)
Dave
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