Donations for the month of December


We have received a total of "0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Meta4
Meta4
Canada
Posts: 83
Joined: May 2016
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,320
Posts53,347
Members965
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,071
Tom 4,077
chestnutmare 3,087
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,820
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 22
Pilgrim 17
Meta4 5
Robin 2
John_C 2
Recent Posts
Progressive Christianity
by DiscipleEddie - Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:36 AM
Nero
by Meta4 - Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:56 PM
Spurgeon
by Pilgrim - Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:06 PM
Gracious High Priest
by NetChaplain - Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:05 PM
A Discourse on the Cleansing Virtue of Christ's Blood
by Pilgrim - Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:44 AM
Renewed Strength
by chestnutmare - Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:56 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#24200 Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
For those unfamiliar with the phrase and it effects on prophecy IHC = Intervening Historical Contingencies. I have attached a link (Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions) to supplement any questions one may have.

Do You Believe in IHCs?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:00 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #24201 Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579
I said "No, it is Openness Theology", but maybe "No, it is Molinism" might be better?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
J_Edwards #24202 Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Joe,

IMHO I think his statement below sums it up pretty well.

Quote
"No uncertainties ever lay before him, no power can thwart the slightest part of his plan. Yahweh spoke through his prophets with full knowledge and control of what was going to happen in the near and distant future. Any outlook that denies this theological conviction is less than adequate."

He is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end. Nothing subjective about that! Surely He sees the end from the beginning. Just as the Psalmist wrote, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:16)


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes #24203 Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
I agree. Several disagree with Pratt in his article, including myself. While I don't think it measures up to the point of Open Theism (Pratt differentiates on this in his lectures) I do think it gets dangerously close. God is sovereign, He knows what the future holds, nothing is changing to Him, though to us it may appear so from the circumstances.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #24204 Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 103
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 103
Joe: I had a problem with the following two statements:

Quote
"In accordance with his all encompassing fixed plan, God often waits to see what his human subjects will do and directs the future on the basis of what they decide."


"In fact, we will see that Yahweh often spoke through his prophets, watched the reactions of people, and then determined how to carry through with his declarations."

Sounds like God has to wait before He really knows the future. Did he really mean this or am I reading wrong?

Dave

J_Edwards #24205 Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
Joe,
In agreement with you, Marie and Dave on this. Unless Mr. Pratt is being quite careless in his use of the terms wait and react, I find it very difficult to see how he would not have to defend against at least a mild form of Molinism. After the opening to which Wes referred, which is quite orthodox, he seems compelled to account for "contingency" by having God "wait and react". How can that be reconciled with WCF 2.2:
Quote
In His sight all things are open and manifest, His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.
More importantly, how can it be reconciled with the Scriptures. I can't remember who makes the point--Owen, maybe--but the resolution of "non-fulfilled threats/promises" can only, and must always, be resolved by saying that God uses those very threats/promises as means to accomplish his most holy, determinate will in the lives of people. Mr. Pratt seems to dismiss this premise at the outset, and ends up with God needing to make contingent responses to his creation. He implies that the Lord's return may have been delayed by the Church . I thought the Father knows the day and hour. Are we now to think that he also may in fact be merely waiting to find out, based on how his Church is doing ????

Joe, was there ever any substantive response to this article from RTS or elsewhere?


In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #24206 Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Quote
He implies that the Lord's return may have been delayed by the Church. I thought the Father knows the day and hour. Are we now to think that he also may in fact be merely waiting to find out, based on how his Church is doing ????
Sorry, but I will need to reply to you and DaveVan3 in one post. Actually it is taught “explicitly” that the Lord “could have” come back at an earlier date, “if” the church had it all together …., and that put up red flags for me (Gal 4:4, etc.).

TMK Pratt has not addressed the Molinism issue, but ... a Molinian desires to make a case that an action must first take place before it can be true. Thus, God cannot know anything as absolute unless it has happens first and thus God becomes reliant upon the acts of men instead of on His own eternal decree(s). However, Pratt does say, “we must approach prophetic predictions with assurance that historical contingencies have never interrupted the immutable decrees of God. No uncertainties ever lay before him, no power can thwart the slightest part of his plan. Yahweh spoke through his prophets with full knowledge and control of what was going to happen in the near and distant future. Any outlook that denies this theological conviction is less than adequate.” Thus, at best this issue is “confusing,” as I hear truth in one ear and then something else (Molinism?) in the other. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" /> This article is in Bruce Waltke’s book (Way of Wisdom, actually honoring Waltke) as well (edited by Packer), and thus it makes me wonder if “I” am missing Pratt’s point. He is a GREAT professor in so many other areas and delivered this address in 1993, and I thus wonder if it was only me … that had a problem …

How does one reconcile Pratt’s article with Isaiah 46:10-11? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #24207 Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
Joe,
Quote
Thus, at best this issue is “confusing,” as I hear truth in one ear and then something else (Molinism?) in the other.
I too was very confused after that promising, orthodox beginning, and recalling your positive remarks in the past about his teaching. Honestly, as I read, I kept hoping the next line would be a variation of Ps. 73:15 If I had said, "I will speak thus", behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of your children., followed by proper exposition. But it never came. Something does not compute.

Last edited by Paul_S; Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:55 PM.

In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #24208 Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
Could it be that most of the confusion about this is caused by language limitations? Humans do the best they can, but how is it possible to accurately describe any sort of intrusion into history by an Eternal God? Jesus did, but he had to actually come and do it in person--and even then it wasn't easy!


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 36 guests, and 8 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
DiscipleEddie, atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach
965 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
December
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,303,845 Gospel truth