The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination and Election

My wife is struggling with the doctrine of predestination based on God's sovereign election of individuals. She is overwhelmed by the feeling it is fatalism. The heart of her concern is what good does it do for her to pray for our children to be saved if they are not chosen by God from before the foundation of the world. What solace can I offer her from scripture?

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You may find this link helpful: Predestination.

There are lots of great articles that deal specifically with your question above which J_Edwards provided you. But a quick answer to your question would be that God ordains the means as well as the end. In other words, God has predestined a set number of Adam's fallen race to be redeemed in Christ (the end). And, He has likewise ordained the preaching of the Word, the prayers of the saints, the sacraments, etc., to accomplish that end (the means). This is not to say that all nor any of the means are sufficient in and of themselves to bring about the salvation of someone, for it is the will of God efficaciously applied by the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the means which accomplishes that salvation.

In His Grace,

Thank you for your insight, Pilgrim. I myself understand and accept Christ's oblation as the means to effect God's end (redemption of the elect) and the various means (preaching the gospel, intercessory prayer, personal evangelism, etc.) God has chosen to effectually call His elect by His Spirit and to effect redemption in their lives. What I am trying to find is a source of consolation to help assuage my wife's concern regarding the disposition (elect or non-elect) of our children. To put it another way, how would one counsel a young Christian couple (elect) about having children if they are concerned that any or all of said children might well be non-elect. Would they be better off not risking bringing children into the world only to ultimately see them lost for eternity if they are not chosen by God?

To be perfectly honest.... such a question could very easily be taken as one which was based upon several wrong presumptions:

1. That we can know who is or is not elected of God unto salvation.
2. That God is not just in condemning our children, who are by nature children of wrath and stand guilty before God at conception. We all are born into this world with an inherited corruption of nature and the imputed guilt of Adam's sin.
3. That God is not a great God of mercy Who saves the worst of sinners by His inestimable grace. And that He is a God Who does answer the prayers of His children according to His will.

It may seem trite to some, but I truly believe that Deut 29:29 can be most appropriately quoted here:

"The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

It is not for us to pry into the secret counsels of God and seek to know that which has deliberately been hidden from us. But rather, we are to go forth in faith and obedience according to all that our Lord has revealed; in His inspired Word. We know that children are a blessing of the Lord and that we are to raise them up according to the Scriptures. We are to pray for them and with them and encourage them to seek the Lord while He may be found; casting themselves upon His mercy and pleading the merits of Christ on their behalf. If children are to be saved, it is essential that they be first brought into this world.

Let's face the facts... all of life is uncertain. We may die in a car accident tomorrow, fall down a flight of stairs and suffer a life-long disability, etc. But even in these temporal things, we rarely let such possibilities deter us from driving a car or walking up/down a flight of stairs. ALL THINGS are of God's divine providence - "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Thus we should never presume upon God's will or grace, nor should we ever disregard or diminish the fact that God is a sovereign God Who works all things according to His will, for both His own glory and our ultimate good. Our God delights in giving good gifts to His children.

In His Grace,

Another way to think about it is the fact that not all people born are saved. Whether one believes in libertarian free will or the free will of God, there are people who will not be saved, unless one is an universalist. It is no better to say that God elects whom he wants than to say He creates some whom he knows will never exercise their "free will" to "accept" him.

The latter makes some feel better because it exalts the creature and takes the "blame" off of God. Instead, what happens is that God is rendered impotent to the almighty will of the creature.

And the real cause of the difficulty is that we do not realize how exceedingly sinful and evil we really are and how holy God actually is. We deserve Hell. If God did not elect some, then none would be saved.

Maybe one approach to persuade could be to concentrate on the Total Deprativity of man in contrast to God's infinite holiness.

So, you couldn't find anything either. I understand. I also understand your comments. My attitude is to do what I can to point my children to the Lord and trust Him for the rest. I pray that none of the tears He will wipe away will be for them.

I am somewhat reluctant to recommend the following sermon, although I personally find it to be one that brings immeasurable joy to my soul. Many, however, shrink in horror after reading it due, no doubt, to an inadequate understanding of the inexorable holiness of God and the incomprehensible depravity of man.

Thus.. go here: The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous, by Jonathan Edwards.

May the Lord bless it to your soul. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Hi Michael,

It may be that your wife has two issues. Is predestination true and if so how are we to reconcile it with prayer? Pilgrim answered the latter. God ordains means to ends. There are some things that you will not do without being asked. Well, why not the same for God? God has ordained that some will be saved through the means of prayer. No problem there.

As for whether the doctrine is true, Scripture screams God's sovereignty yet God does not illuminate all of his to this precious truth. There is no substitute for Scripture mind you. The Holy Spirit must cause one to receive what Scripture clearly says on this matter. In the meantime, maybe you might ask your wife whether she believes that God knew in eternity that she would struggle over this doctrine. Assuming your wife embraces the orthodox view of God’s omniscience, she will say "YES, God knew." Well, if God knew in eternity that your wife would struggle over predestination, then it must have been true in eternity that "Mrs. Michael1967 would struggle with predestination." O.K., what made that statement true in eternity? Nobody was around but God to make it true. Was God dealt this truth by something else that existed in eternity? Was he dealt this truth by something or someone that did not exist? Where was such truth grounded if not in the sole determination of God?

Blessings,

Ron

First I would just like to point something out here. God isn't constrained by time, is He? I don't believe He is. So who is to say that our prayers are ineffectual concerning the salvation of our children under the reformed doctrine of Unconditional Election. Not that I'm saying that His eternal choice to save some over others was based on any foreseen act or response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on His own good pleasure and sovereign will. But I also believe that are prayers don't go unanswered.

Let me ask you something else, why is being an Armenian any more comforting. There I'm sure have been many Armenian mothers who prayed for their children only to see them grow up and never come back to the church.

Predestination, I admit, is a sizable stumbling block, but it should never be elevated above all of the other wonderful beliefs of the reformed faith. I've seen this happen over and over again in the PCUSA church I used to belong too. The Armenian believers there zoomed in on Predestination and couldn't get passed it to explore all the other aspects of the reformed faith. I believe that we need to present the "whole" package when apologizing the reformed faith.

A large portion of the reformed faith deals with Biblical Theology and Covenant Theology. These two areas of reformed teaching vastly help in the better understanding of Predestination. I found that when someone finally starts reading scripture with a reformed presupposition then they will see Predestination in almost every book they read in the Bible. When this happens, it isn't the case of... "well I'm still not sure" ... to that of... "Wow I can't believe that I never saw that before!"

I'm going to provide some scripture versus that I believe will help in this matter and then I'll provide some links that you might want to explore but I believe that Pilgrims replies and links were also very sufficient. Just as a personal note though, when It came to my wife, I finally had to gently "put my foot down" with her. She was having a very hard time trying to understand why I wanted to move churches, from the PCUSA to the PCA and I tried and tried, but finally I had to just come out and say, while we were driving home from the PCUSA church, we are never going back to that (the PCUSA) church again. She just kind of looked at me and from that point on we have been attending the PCA church. Now that she has had a little time under the reformed roof, she has finally begone to see the difference, but it literally took me to drag her kicking and screaming. If you believe in the reformed doctrines then I believe it is your responsibility to lead your family under the reformed teachings.


Unconditional Election:

A. General statements showing that God has an elect people, that He predestined them to salvation, and thus to eternal life.

Deut 10:14,15
Psalm 33:12
Psalm 65:4 - 106:5
Haggai 2:23
Matthew 11:27 - 24:22,24,31
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:28-30 - 8:33 - 11:28
Colossians 3:12
1 Thess 5:9
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:1,2 - 2:8,9
Rev 17:14

B. Before the foundation of the world, God chose particular individuals unto salvation. His selection was not based upon any foreseen response or act performed by those chosen. Faith and good works are the result, not the cause of God's choice.

God did the choosing: Mark 13:20
God's choice was made before the foundation of the world: Ephesians 1:4

God chose particular individuals unto salvation-their names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world: Rev 13:8 - 17:8

God's choice was not based upon any foreseen merit residing in those whom He chose, nor was it based on any foreseen good works performed by them: Rom 9:11-13 - 9:16 - 10:20 - 1 Cor 1:27-29 - 2 Tim 1:9

Good works are the result, not the ground, of predestination: Eph 1:12 - 2:10 - John 15:16

God's choice was not based upon foreseen faith. Faith is the result and therefore the evidence of God's election, not the cause or ground of His choice: Acts 13:48 - 18:27 - Phil 1:29 - 2:12,13 - 1 Thes 1:4,5

It is by faith and good works that one confirms his calling and election: 11 Pet 1:5-11

Election was based on the sovereign, distinguishing mercy of Almighty God. It was not man's will but God's will that determined which sinners would be shown mercy and saved: Exodus 33:19 - Deut 7:6,7 Matt 20:15 Rom 9:10-24

The doctrine of election is but a part of the much broader Biblical doctrine of God's absolute sovereignty. The Scriptures not only teach that God predestined certain individuals unto eternal life, but that all events, both small and great, come about as the result of God's eternal decree. The Lord God rules over heaven and earth with absolute control: nothing comes to pass apart from His eternal purpose: 1 Chron 29:10-12 Job 42:1,2 Psalm 115:3

The doctrine of election should be viewed not only against the backdrop of human depravity and guilt, but it should also be studied in connection with the eternal covenant or agreement made between the members of the Godhead. For it was in the execution of this covenant that the Father chose out of the world of lost sinners a definite number of individuals and gave them to the Son to be His people. The Son, under the terms of this compact, agreed to do all that was necessary to save those "chosen" and "given" to Him by the Father. The Spirit's part in the execution of this covenant was to apply to the elect the salvation secured for them by the Son.



Bringing the Gospel to Covenant Children

How to pass on the faith - The Five Points of Covenantal Succession

Raising Children for God

Y.B.I.C,

Dave

Dear Michael,

In addition to the excellent material given you by Pilgrim, Ron and others, let me offer a few more thoughts.

Those who are able to raise children in a godly household are both blessed (Psalm 128)--as they "see the good of Jerusalem" in the Lord's undeserved mercies--and givers of blessing (Proverbs 1:8-9)--as they point their children to the Lamb of God. Though one can never know beforehand how individual children will respond to the outward call, the faith of the godly mother looks to the glory of God as her motivation in her vital role in extending his kingdom.

Encourage your wife to consider Eve's faith in bearing Seth after Abel's murder (Gen. 4:25), Moses' mother's faith in bearing him when there was no hope for a male child's life, Job's wife's faith in bearing the "second batch" of children after the death of the first, Bathsheba's faith in bearing Solomon after the death of the firstborn. None of these women could foresee whether their children would do well or ill, but we count them blessed because they obeyed the Lord in continuing to bear children for his glory. Even though she was brought much grief through Esau, we count Rebekah blessed on account of Jacob.

Ask your wife to consider whether her association of predestination with fatalism is like the attitude of the servant of the talents parable (Matthew 25:24-25):

'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sow, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, ...'

If she sees any similarity in attitude, encourage her to retain, at all costs, all that has been revealed to her of the Lord's grace, mercy, love, and faithfulness; that he is most certainly not, to his children, 'a hard man'; that his predestination of his children was essential to ensure their eternal safety, comfort and blessedness (John 10:27-30).

Finally, I am convinced that many must see doctrine embodied before wholeheartedly consenting to it. Encourage your wife to meet older women who cling to the doctrines of sovereign grace, who have raised children in the joy and security of that faith.