The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Who does the believing and repenting?

delvanis,

What needs to be done FIRST is to deal with the condition of man as he is since the Fall (post-lapsarian). This I set forth for you in three previous replies to which you have not made an effort to interact with: First Reply, Second Reply, and Third Reply. To briefly iterate what is contained in those three replies, I wrote that man since the fall is spiritually dead, i.e., man's nature is totally predisposed/inclined to hate God and to hate the good/righteousness and love sin. Many Scripture references were provided. Secondly, I wrote that every creature on earth, including man, is governed by its nature. Thus the will of the creature always does that which seems best to it in any given circumstance. The will is not an autonomous element which does its own "thing", but rather it is subject to the intellect and emotions. Thirdly, since all men since the Fall are born with an inherited depraved/corrupt nature which is totally opposed to God, no man CAN come to Christ (repent and/or believe) because he WILL NOT come to Christ; his nature being at enmity with God rejects Him and all that He requires of man. (Rom 3:10-18; 5:12-18; Eph 4:17-19; Jh 6:44; Gen 6:5; 8:21; et al). It would therefore be most beneficial if you would respond to these things before going on into other areas of doctrine, e.g., predestination, election, foreknowledge, etc. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The ONLY way that ANY man will repent and believe on Christ unto salvation is if he is given a new nature (regeneration/born again/born from above/made alive) by God. This regeneration creates a new nature, one which is predisposed/inclined toward God, i.e., a love for God, a hatred of sin, a desire to live in holiness, a passion for Christ and a recognition of the sufficiency of His atoning sacrifice. Thus, this new nature moves the will irresitibly.... NATURALLY.... so that the one chooses that which before he was unable/unwilling to do.

Since you mentioned A.W. Pink in regard to "Foreknowledge", perhaps you would benefit from reading what he wrote on that subject here: Foreknowledge by Pink.

Further, you might also read what Pink wrote concerning the subject of regeneration here: Regeneration or the New Birth.

There are two other articles which you would do well to read as well:

1) Decisional Regeneration, by James E. Adams

2) Do you REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?, by yours truly.

In His grace,

This exact topic is one which put me through a crisis: I could not reconcile God's holiness with men's free will (as I understood it to be). Here was the "sledge" used to beat down the wall of my arminianism.

Rom 9:11 ...(for the children not yet being born, not having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)...

...here Paul does not leave the purpose of God hanging in mid air, but he defines it... or better put, he refines the definition by stating what this purpose and election is NOT. Thus he goes on saying that "...not of works (present works, past works, or future works) but of Him who calls..."

Arminianis states on the contrary:
1. works occur
2. God sees works
3. God calls according to thoes works

Getting back to Romans 9... Paul was not stupid... so, after having stated these words (verse 11) and given refference to that event (verses 12, 13), he knew exactly what the basic human out-cry will be and thus, he deals with it...

14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15. For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Something to note here... expecting the human outcry to be: THATS NOT FAIR, he goes on to refute that, and by doing that, Paul did not start talking about God's fairness but he immidietely refferenced God's holiness (He does what He wants to do because He got ultimate authority)...

20. But indeed, O man, who are you to reply agains God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21. Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

...So the next human objection is: WELL... IF HE CAN SHOW MERCY TO WHOM HE WANTS TO SHOW MERCY, WHY DOES HE NOT JUST SHOW THAT MERCY TO ALL MEN? Paul "punches the lights out on that one as well ...

22. What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, 23. and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessls of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called..."

...before when I was an Arminian I was appauled reading verse 22. Then, realising that we all deserved what was written in verse 22, I praised God more excedingly, more abundently because He was not obligated to designate thoes to whom applied verse 23.

If God would show only justice; be without mercy; condemning all of human kind to hell, I fear that there would be no outcry from the Free Will thinkers. But, should a Holy God show even a tad-bit of goodness, all hell breakes loose... "Why?! If He gave a "stick of gum" to one person, then it is only fair that He gives a "stick of gum to all people"!!!"

We cannot make our human idea of fairness lord of The LORD.

delvanis, I understand that this is not an easy topic to deal with and that this strikes right at the heart of what makes up the human ego. God made us in His own immage, therefore just as God desires to be in controll, so it is ony propper that men should also desire to be in controll. But when God created men He defined thoes areas of controll...

Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

...but as sin entered men it distorted that definition thus our lordship, in-stead of being sub-mission to God's Lordship, now competes against it.

Study God's Word, bro. Nothing, absolutely nothing lies outside of God's Lordship (including our wills), thus He is... Holy Holy Holy.

I do appreciate all your replies, but are differences is in how God deals with man and what he expects of man.If man was not exposed to the gospel and wooing of the Holy Spirit, man would never choose God on his own. This much we agree on.

Where we differ is when a sinner is confronted with the gospel and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. You state all those who do respond in some way to the gospel, will come to Christ and ultimately be saved. This act you call regeneration. But if this were true, which it isn't, then all men who fell under the conviction of the gospel and the Holy Spirit would receive Christ and be saved.

But the New Testament simply does not teach this. Especially concerning the parable of the sower. The seed is the word of God and the soil is the hearts of men. Some receive the word of God and produce fruits of their salvation, while others, the cares of this life swallow up their commitment and so the believer falls by the wayside.

As I stated before, King Agrippa heard the word of God and partially accepted it, but would not make that full commitment. There was a silversmith named Demas who once was a companion of Paul, who went back into the world and forsook the faith. The point is all these individuals truly believed what Paul said, but CHOSE NOT to follow Christ in the long run. They could not do this if they didn't have the power of free choice in their being.Otherwise Demas would never have followed Paul to begin with and then decide not to.

To say a man is born totally evil and cannot do anything good is false. Unsaved people give to religious charities all the time. What is true that a sinner cannot be regenerated until he or she is exposed to the gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. But all who are convicted do not continue and all who are convicted do not commit their life to Christ. There have been hundreds of people in life who fall into this category. Some love their personal pleasures and WILL NOT give them up. Whether it is sex, alcohol, drugs,or whatever vice. They surely believe, but won't COMMIT.

Our difference is not that God has chosen a people for himself, for he has. But rather God has chosen a people who have of their own volition, when convicted by the gospel and Holy Spirit, submitted THEIR WILL to him.

No, that's not in agreement with what we've been saying. Regeneration preceeds faith. Man will not submit his will until he's born again and his very nature is changed. That's also the problem with those who follow Christ for a time and then fall away. That decision was done in their own will for whatever reason and they were not truly changed from within.


Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.


Wes

No, we do not "state" that at all. First of all, regeneration (which is nothing more than the "new birth" of which Jesus speaks in John 3) is the act of the Holy Spirit by which He revives the dead sinner and implants in him a true desire toward God. A person thus regenerated will most certainly be saved; that is, he will be justified, sanctified, and glorified, all by the grace of God working in him. But a mere "positive response" to the Gospel or a "decision for Christ" is not the same as regeneration! To be sure, a regenerated soul will "choose God" (for so God has planted this desire in him). But a fallen man who attempts to choose God, though he profess faith in Christ and behave in a manner which seems to become a saint of God, yet because his heart is not changed, he will be a tare among the wheat and will likely fall away with persecution or be destroyed by the cares of the world.


Neither Agrippa nor Demas were ever true believers—Agrippa most obviously because he never even became a member of the church, and Demas because he apostasized. As John writes, "They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (I John 2:19).


What is the testimony of Scripture regarding man's ability to please God? "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5). "The intent of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. 8:21). "All our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment" (Isa. 64:6). "It is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks God'" (Rom. 3:10–11). "The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7–8). "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannont understand them, for they are spiritually appraised" (I Cor. 2:14). "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:1–3). "Without faith it is impossible to please [Him]" (Heb. 11:6). "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one [point], he has become guilty of all" (James 2:10).

"A person thus regenerated will most certainly be saved"

REPLY-The difficulty with making such a broad statement such as this is twofold. 1.That all who believe the gospel, but reject following Christ will be saved anyway.How many hundreds of people do believe, but don't really commit themselves to Christ in the long run? Will one maintain then that these folks are saved? I think not.

2.There is nowhere in scripture where regeneration precedes believing. Especially in consideration of I John 5:1 and also the fact that Christ expects men to believe and repent, BEFORE receiving eternal life. Also, if men were incapable of doing this when exposed to the gospel message, then Christ would not have stated it as something men must do to obtain eternal life.John 3:15-16.

I might add that when Jesus spoke of regeneration in John 3:5 he spoke of two elements. One being of water and other obviously of the Holy Spirit. Most commentators such as Luther, Albert Barnes and other notable commentators state Jesus was referring to Christian baptism when referring to water. If this indeed be the case, then a person is not just regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but through the rite or act of Christian baptism. I believe John Wesley also believed this as well.

Yes, the command is there, but the ability is not unless we are born anew. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of the Apostle John, the Apostle Paul, and of our Lord Himself.

1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" Note it reads “has been born of God” not “will be” born of God! Our faith doesn’t result in the new birth but is a result of the new birth.

John 1:13 “He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Rom 9:16 “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.”

John 6:63,65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father."

John 10:25-30 “Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Note this passage doesn’t say “if” you believe you are my sheep but rather it reads “My sheep hear My voice.” The ones He has chosen will believe in Him and follow Him. The ones the Father has given Him. So regeneration preceeds faith. Anything else denies the necessity of being born again.


Wes

Wes

You beat me to it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
I will add Eph.2:5 to that list. "Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Notice it says "Even when we were dead in sins,". It does not say: “Now that we believe”...
Delvanis, do not make the mistake that many do, by thinking that regeneration ("quickened") and conversion are the same.

Tom

delvanis,

This will be my last attempt to ask you to interact with all that I have offered to you in my previous replies, which you seem to have chosen to totally ignore. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> Here, I will only deal with one of your objections as the others have dealt what followed:

The answer to this objection is once again a proper and biblical understanding of the fallen nature of man. If man is as "dead" as the Bible says he is, then of necessity there must be a radical transformation of his soul/nature so as to enable him to have any interest whatsoever in God and salvation, which comes by repentance and faith in Christ. This is where "regeneration" applies. Unless man is born again, he will never desire thus have no ability to repent and believe, in the true sense of the word. After, the Holy Spirit regenerates the soul, then the sinner most naturally repents and believes on Christ. This doctrine is known as "Irresistible Grace".

Read about it here:

Irresistible Grace, by John Murray
Efficacious Grace, by Loraine Boettner

Re: Free-will, read these:

Myth of Free-will, by Walter Chantry
God's Sovereignty and the Human Will, by A.W. Pink
Arminianism: The Golden Idol of Free-will, by Augustus Toplady
The Choice . . . Man's or God's?, by Peter Eldersveld
There are Only Two Religions in the World, by John G. Reisinger

Re: Regeneration

The Nature, Causes and Means of Regeneration, by John Owen
Regeneration, or the New Birth, by A.W. Pink
Regeneration and Conversion, by Samuel Hopkins

General:

Arminian Errors, by William MacLean
Arminianism Exposed, by Mar Herzer
An Antidote to Arminianism, by Christopher Ness
Truth and Error, by Horatius Bonar
The Reformed Faith and Arminianism, by John Murray

In His grace,

delvanis,

You are reading scripture that teaches man is accountable to repent and believe and adding your belief of freewill into it. Man's accountability and freewill are not the same. Man in his natural state is accountable for something he cannot and will not do, unless God intervenes first. That's actually the crux of Grace! That's what makes it "amazing" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />....as the famous hymn goes.

Also, if you really want to engage this issue, why won't you address Pilgrim's replies to you? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

I might also add that the author of the song "Amazing Grace" was a Calvinist.

Tom

This is such an interesting & frustrating subject to me. I only just heard about this in my Bible Study class this week. It's frustrating because I can see things that make sence on both sides.

And as I have already said, such people are unregenerate. You are attacking straw men; in fact, that's all you have been doing in this entire thread. We have attempted to point you to the Man Himself, as He is revealed in His Word, but you have instead erected an effigy and burned it.


If you will not address what I have provided from Scripture, I am not going to bother with what you provide. You haven't even begun to address what I've said, so why should I go any further in addressing you? If you cannot understand the Scripture perhaps it is that you are still a "natural man" with a "mind set on the flesh"; and if so, you will not understand unless God so wills it.

to The Highway Discussion Board.

It would seem that you have not been exposed to the historic doctrines of Christianity which were believed most thoroughly and predominately up until recent history. Fret not.... today, this is unfortunately all too common. However, you have come to the right place, if I may say so myself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> If you are open to learning, you will find MUCH to gain here, both in the way of biblical knowledge but also in community.

First, are you aware that this Board is but a small part of The Highway website? There you will find over 1600 books, articles and sermons for your perusal and edification. There is also a Search Feature with which you can find information on nearly every subject you desire. (hint: put phrases within "quotation marks" to narrow your search) And you can also post your questions here on the Board also and doubtless someone will be able to not only answer your questions but provide links to relevant articles.

Second, perhaps you don't realize it but the two views expressed in this thread, one posed by "delvanis" and the other stated by the rest are diametrically opposed. Although you may personally see things on both sides that "make sense" to you, they are in total opposition to each other and therefore cannot be held simultaneously. Either God is sovereign in all things, not excluding salvation and therefore salvation is by grace alone.... OR...... God shares His sovereignty with created man and salvation is "synergistic", i.e., a combination of God's work and man's work. Interestingly enough, ALL religions hold to some form of the latter in contrast to biblical Christianity; whether it be the Roman Catholic Church, modern evangelicalism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Buddhism, et al.

Lastly... perhaps you would like to provide one or two of these things which you feel "make sense" to you that these two opposing views hold and let us respond to them. I would venture to guess that you are laboring under some misconceptions about one, the other, or even both? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Another misconception is you can live any way you want and still get into heaven, because of the beleif in eternal security. The Reformers NEVER taught such a thing. Quite the opposite, Christians would be characterized by a holy living. (not sinless perfection). All true believers are kept by God and therefore persevere.
Phi 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.