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#28618 Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:17 AM
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I have wondered would a Calvinistic baptist be considered reformed? What would you consider as the beliefs needed to be called reformed?

#28619 Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:53 AM
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Good question. There's an underlying implication that Calvinism and Reformed are the same. I don't really think that they are. There are several ways (eg - the TULIP) that describe the essentials of Calvinism, but I haven't seen one that describes the essentials of being Reformed. Is a belief in Covenant Theology and Paedobaptism a necessity for being Reformed? If so, then that will leave out some who claim being Reformed.

In addition, it is important to distinquish between calvinistic and Calvinisn. Presbyterianism in America is Reformed and calvinistic in its theology, but its heritage is not that as the Continental Reformed which is more Calvinism. Of course that is if there is a difference between being calvistic and Calvinism itself. It may be a nitpik.

Last edited by John_C; Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:55 AM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
John_C #28620 Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:35 AM
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Well, I know of Baptists who say they are the only ones that can claim to be Reformed- i.e. because they "reformed" far enough to get rid of paedobaptism.

I think the discussion in that sense is a bit silly, i.e. "we're reformed and your're not," as if the name was important or was some prestigious title that had to be fought for like a sports trophy.

That being said, the common usage of the term "Reformed" these days seems to denote at the basic level a Calvinistic soteriology and a commitment to the five solas.

Last edited by Henry; Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:38 AM.

(Latin phrase goes here.)
#28621 Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:23 PM
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Well John here is an excellent (at least to my mind) response to your question. What is a Reformed Baptist?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Henry #28622 Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:44 PM
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Henry

I believe you nailed it here when you said:
Quote
That being said, the common usage of the term "Reformed" these days seems to denote at the basic level a Calvinistic soteriology and a commitment to the five solas.

But I would add a few more. Reformed Baptists as well as other Reformed believers believe in what is referred as Semper Reformanda (sorry if I blew that name) or always reforming.
Reformed Baptists also believe in all the law, as opposed to say others Calvinist Baptist groups like Sovereign Grace Baptists who for the most part believe that the 4th commandment no longer applies.
Boanerges provided an excellent article on these points in his post, if you haven’t read it I would recommend that you do.
Personally in my opinion, those who insist that non paedo-Baptists or for that matter non-credo-Baptists who claim that the other side aren't really "reformed" are being rather nitpicky.


Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:47 PM.
#28623 Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:40 PM
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Well Spurgeon and Gill held a strong Calvinistic Baptist position but I think they would have been insulted if you called them reformed.




William #28624 Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:25 AM
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Well Spurgeon and Gill held a strong Calvinistic Baptist position but I think they would have been insulted if you called them reformed.

Actually I disagree with you there. Both Spurgeon and Gill held to the 1689 LBCF and I know Spurgeon was very fond of using other confessions such as the WCF.
In fact if you go here you can see a sample of that.
As you probably know there are only minor differences between the WCF and the 1689 LBCF.

However, I will stand corrected if and when you show me evidence that Spurgeon and Gill would be insulted at being called Reformed.

Tom

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However, I will stand corrected if and when you show me evidence that Spurgeon and Gill would be insulted at being called Reformed.

Tom,

Sorry to [img]https://the-highway.com/Smileys/censored.gif[/img] in the conversation but I think William meant Spurgeon and Gill's position would be Semper Reformanda. Thus, not being reformed...yet.

Then again, he could've meant something completely different so I am butting out now...


tj
"-that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection..."
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Sorry to [img]https://the-highway.com/Smileys/censored.gif[/img] in the conversation but I think William meant Spurgeon and Gill's position would be Semper Reformanda. Thus, not being reformed...yet.


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> Isn't Semper Reformanda something all Reformed Christians would affirm?

Tom

Tom #28627 Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:12 PM
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Tom, I found a couple of places in his sermons where Spurgeon says the church needs to be reformed but I also found a place where he says that the Baptist church never had an alliance with Rome and has never needed to be reformed. So there are some Baptist and I think Spurgeon who believe that Calvinistic Baptist's were never part of the Reformation but received the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Quote
“The images are first to be burned, then sinful customs are to be given up,
and after that let the church be reformed.”

“Begin, O soldiers of Christ, to be more true to your colors,
and as surely as the time shall come when the church shall thus
be reformed and revived, to surely shall the King come into our midst,
and we shall march on to certain victory, trampling down our enemies,
and getting to our King many crowns, through many victories achieved.”

“The Christian Church, and especially that Church of which we are still members,
which has never defiled its garments, but which, never having had any alliance with the
Church of Rome, has never needed to be reformed, — that Church under
its different names, Paulitians, Novations, Albigenses, Lollards,
Wyckliffites, Anabaptists, Baptists, has always suffered.”


Gill on the other hand condemned reformed churches with a sermon entitled “INFANT BAPTISM: A PART & PILLAR OF POPERY” so to him and probably a lot of people back then the word “REFORMED” referred to churches that practiced infant baptism. Also I think Gill used and wrote the “Goat Yard Confession”. What Reformed means today that is a different story.

Thanks Bill




William #28628 Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:04 PM
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Tom, I found a couple of places in his sermons where Spurgeon says the church needs to be reformed but I also found a place where he says that the Baptist church never had an alliance with Rome and has never needed to be reformed. So there are some Baptist and I think Spurgeon who believe that Calvinistic Baptist's were never part of the Reformation but received the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)
Were the Catholics the only ones the Church needed reform from? Baptists went through a lot of reform. A Primer on Baptist History.

In addition, you may enjoy these quotes by Spurgeon;

Quote
A Reformation is as much needed now as in Luther's day, and by God's grace we shall have it, if we trust in Him and publish His truth. The cry is 'overturn, overturn, overturn,' till He shall come whose right is! Reader are you doing service in the Lord's war, which He is now waging? You know the errors of Rome, are you doing anything to withstand them? (The Sword and the Trowel, March 1866)

Essence of lies, and quintessence of blasphemy, as the religion of Rome is, it nevertheless fascinates a certain order of Protestants, of whom we fear it may be truly said that they have received a strong delusion to believe a lie, that they may be damned. Seeing that it is so, it becomes all who would preserve their fellow - immortals from destruction to be plain and earnest in their warnings. Not in a party-spirit, but for truth's sake, our Protestantism must protest perpetually. (The Sword and the Trowel, January, 1873)


Reformed and Always Reforming,

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