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Link #29118 Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:49 PM
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Also, you mentioned a 'worship service' earlier. I do not see where scripture commands us to have 'worship services' or even uses the language 'service.'
And the Bible does not tell you to have electricity in a Church or even in-door plumbing. As matter a fact it makes no mention of computers either. You had better sell all your Church property move to the desert and get off-line or the boogy man is going to get you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" />


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And that is not my point either. I did not say it was wrong to have 'worship services.' I just pointed out that this is not the type of language the New Testament uses.

The church met to eat the Lord's Supper and to have meetings in which the saints were edified through use of the gifts of the Spirit. In the epistles, we see that this was done, or was to be done, through mutually edifying meetings in which the saints were to exhort one another. The scriptures were also to be read.

I suppose some might see this as a 'worship service' but if there is no prostration, it is not literally proskuneo. 'Service' probably comes from the concept of liturgy. I am not against having aspects of liturgical worship, but I do not see it as specificaly commanded as exhorting one another is.

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The church met to eat the Lord's Supper and to have meetings in which the saints were edified through use of the gifts of the Spirit. In the epistles, we see that this was done, or was to be done, through mutually edifying meetings in which the saints were to exhort one another. The scriptures were also to be read.
Originally the gifts were manifested in many places. They were manifested just walking down the streets, stopping, and healing, etc. Paul was bitten by a snake, he was ship wrecked and had a word of knowledge beforehand, etc. However, that is not the nature of your original question is it (Is the Sunday sermon Biblical?)? Paul TOLD the Corinthians that their "services" were not being conducted properly and for them to be changed.

PS: We use many terms to describe things in Scripture that cannot be found in the text (Trinity, Infralapsarianism, Sublapsarianism, etc)--but it does not mean they are the wrong terms. Communication is imperative and thus words of many sorts must be used.


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J_Edwards said:
Originally the gifts were manifested in many places. They were manifested just walking down the streets, stopping, and healing, etc. Paul was bitten by a snake, he was ship wrecked and had a word of knowledge beforehand, etc. However, that is not the nature of your original question is it (Is the Sunday sermon Biblical?)? Paul TOLD the Corinthians that their "services" were not being conducted properly and for them to be changed.


That is true, and I did not assert that they were not used outside of church meetings. We do see in I Corinthians 12 that the gifts he spoke of were for the edification of the body. In chapter 14, Paul instructs the Corinthians, not just elders, to be zealous for spiritual gifts that built up the church (assembly.)

The Corinthians did need to change what they did in their gatherings. But how were they to be changed? Notice Paul did not say ‘Sing hymns, then have one man speak, and everyone else be quiet. Take up the offering. Have communion. Sing hymns. Then go home.’

We can see from Paul’s instructions in I Corinthians 14 that he expected that an individual reading his letter might offer up a prayer in church, and that he should do so in a manner that edified the assembly (v. 16.)

We also see that Paul was favorable toward the idea of ‘all’ prophesying in church. (v. 24, 31.)

Verse 26 says,
“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.”


Did Paul tell them it was wrong for them to do all these things in church? No. He just stipulated that they be done in an edifying manner. Then he proceeded to give them instructions for how to speak in tongues and interpret, and how the prophets were to prophecy, and those sitting by could prophesy in an orderly manner.


Paul’s concept of order here is particularly important when we consider that the book of Hebrews instructs us to ‘exhort one another’ in our meetings. Where else does scripture go into detail on what we should do in our meetings? Sure, the instructions here are few, but should we follow what instructions are given? Shouldn’t we try to follow what is there, rather than relying solely on tradition?


Quote
PS: We use many terms to describe things in Scripture that cannot be found in the text (Trinity, Infralapsarianism, Sublapsarianism, etc)--but it does not mean they are the wrong terms. Communication is imperative and thus words of many sorts must be used.


It was not my point to forbid terms that do not show up in translations of the scripture. I would like to discuss whether the concepts are scripture. Does the Bible teach us to have ‘worship services?’ We are to come together to break bread. When we come together we should exhort and edify one another.


Singing psalms and giving thanks to God can be edifying, and we might define them as forms of ‘worship’—if not proskuneo per se.


As for ‘services’ some argue that in Acts 13:1, the ‘ministering’ they were doing was performing a liturgy. I am not convinced either way on that.

Link #29122 Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:42 PM
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Well, we know that when Paul spoke/preached all night long, it was from Saturday afternoon through Saturday night, and into Sunday morning. Because it says he preached into the night on the first day, and the only "night" on the first day was Saturday night (since the first day starts at sundown on Saturday through sundown on Sunday).
So, if we say Paul preached here, then we can say he preached on a Saturday afternoon/evening/night.


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Link said:
I have found one passage of scripture in which Paul 'discoursed' all night long with a group of believers before he left the next morning. This passage does not demand that a sermon was preached. Paul may have been holding a discussion.

From studying scripture, I do not find that the early churches were instructed to have one Sunday sermon. Rather, I find the following instructions for what to do in meetings.

I Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Hebrews 10:
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Notice that when they met together, they exhorted one another.

From reading scripture, we can see that the early churches met together primarily in homes and ate a holy dinner together, and different members spoke to edify the assembly.

Any comments.
but the early church is a result of a sermon. PETER ONE Acts 2:14-42


-- I was predestined to be an Arminian, but chose instead to be a Calvinist, swallowed the TULIP bulb

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