I totally agree, but how do we apply this?<br><br><ul>How do we preach and apply the pure doctrine of the gospel?--what standards, et. al.<br><br>How do we maintain the pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by Christ,<br><br>How do we, in this culture, apply church discipline?[/LIST] The principles you quoted here are excellent and correct [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bravo.gif" alt="bravo" title="bravo[/img]. They are like the skeleton of what the Church should be, but how do we take these theological concepts of perfection and perfectly apply them in the culture we live in? How do we flesh this out? The millennial question, I am sure. I am attempting to get to the "how to" of the theology and from that see what denomination, if any, best fits the Church.
Joe,<br><br>I don't think the "how to" answer is a "one size fits all" answer. These marks of the true Church are to be established in a Bible believing church. They should be considered non-negotiable. It will take a Spirit-filled servant of God to bring the message of the Gospel faithfully. It will take elder's who are Spirit-filled men, who study the word of God, and pray in faith. They must guard the Table of the Lord and oversee the flock of God. The rest depends on the culture in which they are ministering and how they will respond to the challenges/opportunities God is giving them. Most importantly they must be able to discern what God is doing in their midst, for He alone will build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.<br><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
VictoriaSuzette,<br><br>You mentioned the ARP in your post. Where I live there are no ARP churches (the PCA is about it for Reformed churches), so I'm not familiar with the ARP. How does it differ from the PCA--doctrine? practice?<br><br>Just curious--and welcome to the Highway, BTW.<br><br>Theo
Wes,<br><br>I appreciate what you are saying, but we are still being to general. Culture though does need to conform to the church IMHO, and not the other way around, thus I see no dependence on culture.
Joe,<br><br>My comments on the culture have to do with opportunities and challenges they present. Ofcourse we don't compromise the message but if we are going to be effective we would be advised to understand the culture.<br><br>Joe, I'm not sure what you want someone to say more specifically. Do you want to go through a list of denominations and sort of the winners and the losers?<br><br>Denominations List<br><br>IMHO I think it will come down to the faithful leadership within a local congregation not a denomination. <br><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Actually, I am studying and was attempting to get some specific views from various Reformed folks here. I already have what I need from some other materials, but I was attempting to see if others have fully thought through the implications of what a totally biblical church is.<br><br>The books I have been interacting with in this study:<br><br>The Spirit and the Church, Owen.<br>Twelve Ordinary Men, MacArthur.<br>The Godly Man's Picture, Watson.<br>The Lord's Day, Pipa.<br>Christ Centered Preaching, Chapel.<br>Evangelical Eloquence, Dabney.<br>Preaching with Purpose, Adams.<br>Light and Heat, The Puritan View of the Pulpit, Bickel.
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/hello.gif" alt="hello" title="hello[/img] Joe,<br><br>The books you've listed sound interesting. Any suggestions on a place to purchase them relatively....no, extremely cheap.
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/hello.gif" alt="hello" title="hello[/img] Hello,<br><br>I normally begin with CVBBS and then preoceed to TBS, RHB, RFPA, and then CBD, RTS, and WBS. Of course, not all these carry all the books, but I look for good prices for new ones there and for used books: Theological Pursuits
Joe,<br><br>John MacArthur also has a series of messages entitled "The Anatomy of a Church." This is also good.<br><br>He asks the question, "How can a church be all that God wants it to be?" Then he answers this question by using Paul's analogy of the church as a body. First, he teaches about the skeleton of a church - the foundational things a church must be committed to. Then he tells us we need to examines the internal organs, which are proper spiritual attitudes. Third, he helps us to look at the muscles, or the functions of the church. Finally he teaches about the flesh of the church, which is the visible method of ministry.<br><br>He says that although churches differ externally, they must all be committed to the same truths, attitudes, and functions. He concludes that this kind of church can truly glorify God.<br><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Many thanks, I had forgotten about that one. I have read, The Body Dynamic, but not The Anatomy of a Church...I'll have to pick that one up.............
Joe,<br><br>I don't think it's available in book form. I've got it in a series of 8 audio tapes. You'll have to check with Grace To You headquarters. <br><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Even better, I just found a written transcript on-line <br><br><br>Bible Bulletin Board<br>Websites: www.biblebb.com and www.gospelgems.com<br><br> and that material maybe in his book: Master's Plan for the Church which I had forgotten about as well--and I have it on CD [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]...thanks
from yet more denominations. They are a necessity, not a virtue. Looking at the US from the UK I see a number of good, biblical, Reformed denominations I would be happy to serve as a member.<br><br>I wonder if we sometimes despise Christ's church. Do we forget that it is the place where God sanctifies us by daily struggles to love others who are as unlovely as ourselves and to work through difficulties to reacha common biblical mind?<br><br>Regarding the PCA as a whole as liberal is rubbish. I am also extremely sceptical that any of its congregations properly fit that label. One will find diversity in some areas, but mistaking uniformity for unity was the mistake of the Anglicans in 1662.<br><br>I hope we spend as much energy encouraging our brethren in the churches where we are members to grow in grace as we do worrying about other peoples' denominations!<br><br>In Christ,<br><br>James.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Regarding the PCA as a whole as liberal is rubbish. I am also extremely sceptical that any of its congregations properly fit that label. One will find diversity in some areas</font><hr></blockquote><p> Well James you failed to understand the purpose of the post. It was not to cut down other denominations, but to see the good, embrace it, and to see how or if the church could be improved by fixing the problems within. Of course, if they cannot be fixed then what follows?<br><br> But I would also say that you have not visited the same PCA churches I have here. While I did say [color:blue]this will vary church to church on an individual basis</font color=blue> (thus, not the whole PCA is liberal [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/readit.gif" alt="readit" title="readit[/img]) from what I have seen, thus far, I have seen liberalism within the denomination. Apparently, you have a different view (1) of what liberalism is (2) have never studied through the Sonship Training of the World Harvest Missions; my previous example (3) been involved with the PCA here. BTW I will not be PCA after my upcoming move, but for another reason all together.<br><br> In my short time in the PCA I have witnessed countless errors. I am a member of one PCA church and we visit two others every other Sunday night, as we have no services at our own. Far from what I would call [color:red]diversity</font color=red> (your term) I have see "elders" teaching (1) Larry Crabb's material on counseling (2) one is going through the series of Tim LaHay's Left Behind series (3) another "elder", an attorney by trade and knowing my previous background as a Baptist, approached me some weeks ago asking if paedo baptism was Scriptural. He advised when he took his leadership position that he agreed with the WCF in "words only", but in his own heart he was unsure. Why is he an elder? Of course, I can gladly say now that after tons of reading material and Richard Pratt's video on baptism he has come around full circle, but it leaves one wondering none-the-less. There are other examples, but these will suffice. I also know that not all PCA churches are like these I have seen locally.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I hope we spend as much energy encouraging our brethren in the churches where we are members to grow in grace as we do worrying about other peoples' denominations!</font><hr></blockquote><p> I hope we do too. But if another denomination is doing something right and mine is not, does it not cause a need for re-examination? And whether another denomination is doing it at all, if the Scripture says to be doing something and the denomination is not, is it not time for re-examination? IMHO it is very difficult to [color:red]encourage</font color=red> (your term) someone in a place that embraces impurity in its theology and government. Are you going to encourage them to continually embrace the error within the denomination? Of course, we could just sit back and become complacent and not address the problems we see in the church and allow liberalism to take the full place of truth?<br><br>P.S. I believe if you would have read the rest of what already had been posted you would of had a better idea of the direction and intent of the original post.
Dear Joe,<br><br>thanks for your reply. I did not understand you to be attacking any particular denominations.<br><br>Clearly we haven't visited the same PCA churches. I have been tremendously encouraged by all four I have visited (Tenth Philadephia, Village Church New York, Redeemer New York and Nroth City, California). I am aware of ups and downs in some of these and have been ecouraged again to see people seeking to address them biblically. So, as you say, we haven't seen the same churches!<br><br>Certainly encouragement, in my book, includes appropriately addressing problems in a church. I do believe individual congregations need reformation and indeed I labour at that in the congregation where I have recently begun serving as a deacon. It isn't easy, it takes a long time, it requires building relationships and working and praying hard to see behaviours, attitudes and beliefs change. So far I am very encouraged myself by how the Lord has opened possibilities to be active in this way.<br><br>Thus it may be that the churches you are involved with in the PCA need reformation to rediscover and apply biblical truths. The challenge is always how we see ourselves glorifying God in the midst of them. We can choose to work for biblical solutions without any illusions as to how hard this can be. Or we can walk away and keep looking for the perfect church.<br><br>Yours in Christ,<br><br>James.
