|
Posts: 3,463
Joined: September 2003
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,348
Posts56,543
Members992
| |
Most Online2,383
Jan 12th, 2026
|
|
|
#30480
Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:04 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 1
Permanent Resident
|
OP
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 1 |
What's the history behind the Methodists using trespass instead of debt in the Lord's prayer? Does it have anything to do with doctrine
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151 |
What !! Hi John_C,
What do you mean debt like money debt ? I say trespass,I'm Methodist, and I take it as all wrongs that we do to others.
Neicey
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710 |
neicey Since you are a Methodist would you know why the Methodist are allowed to have those metal church signs (showing that a Methodist church is in the area) posted throughout New York state? Thank You <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian  |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
John_C said:
What's the history behind the Methodists using trespass instead of debt in the Lord's prayer? Does it have anything to do with doctrine The word used for in Matt. 6:12 is opheilêmata, which is literally "things owed; debts." But the word used in v. 14 is paraptômata, which is literally "trespasses; offences." So I take it that "trespasses" comes from what Jesus said regarding forgiveness after He taught the prayer, and this was superimposed on the prayer itself. Differing theologies would not seem to be at issue so much. For what it's worth, Luke 11:4 uses hamartias, which is literally "sins."
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Old Hand
|
|
Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969 |
William said:neicey Since you are a Methodist would you know why the Methodist are allowed to have those metal church signs (showing that a Methodist church is in the area) posted throughout New York state? Thank You <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Its easy William its to show Calvinists where not to go. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Sorry Neicey I'm just funning! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Peter
If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416 |
Its easy William its to show Calvinists where not to go. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Sorry Neicey I'm just funning! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> A True Calvinist doesn't need a sign to know the way to go, because that would require using our free will to make a choice in the matter! We can't have that now can we? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 1
Permanent Resident
|
|
OP
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 1 |
Thanks, Kyle.
I just noticed something interesting. In verse 13 (Matt 6:13) where the prayer ends with the words - "For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" - are not in the original autographs according to my NASB translation.
Last edited by John_C; Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:27 AM.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 428
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 428 |
Of course they ARE in 85% of the 'autographs'.
Grace is not common.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277 |
I'm not at liberty to say...
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
John, As Steve pointed out in a abbreviated form, those words do appear in the TR (Textus Receptus) but not in the WH (Westcott-Hort) text. So, it becomes a matter of manuscript evidence and which you prefer. Depending upon which manuscripts the translators used the words will be either included or excluded. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In His grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151 |
Hi William, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" /> It's not just New York,it's all over the east coast,my guess would be every place preacher man Wesley tied his horse,a church sprang <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> there is an up side to those signs,should you ever be hungry,with no money,follow the signs,to a soup kitchen near you <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> neicey
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 151 |
Its easy William its to show Calvinists where not to go. Sorry Neicey I'm just funning! Well Boanerges, I will admit that was a good answer <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> but you still get this <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" /> neicey <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" />
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,892 Likes: 48
Needs to get a Life
|
|
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,892 Likes: 48 |
neicey
You are in pretty good company, remember George Whitefield was Calvinistic Methodist.
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
384
guests, and
48
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
