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#30549 Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:20 PM
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Kalled said:If this is all that can be found in the entire clip that was worthy of posting and commenting, then what is all the controversy?

The entire video was a testimony of the foolishness of ECM. It didn't require any comment and that's why I posted it without one.

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Kalled2Preach said:

I did watch the video, and, it seems silly to bring the dog, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. If this is all that can be found in the entire clip that was worthy of posting and commenting, then what is all the controversy? I've seen very little discussion over what the pastors and people actually said and how heretical it is and how it is another gospel. So, maybe I was a bit off in my comments regarding the dog thing, but I did confess to being wrong. Did you not read that post?

K2P,

Before the dog was even brought up in this thread I made these comments. It should concern us all that this church is man-centered not God-centered!

Just like human beings who believe they can make God over in their own image rather than the God of the Bible this is an example of man making the church into a spiritual social club. It becomes a church suited to their needs and comfort level. One that doesn't offend anyone, doesn't demand obedience, doesn't have confessions, doesn't have doctrine, and doesn't have a cross. I hope you can see the distinction.

"Jesus said, "I will build MY Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) This church will have the marks of a true church because He gives her the keys of the kingdom. Namely the faithful preaching of the Gospel, the pure administration of the sacraments, as instituted by Christ; if church discipline is exercised in punishing of sin; in short, if all things are managed according to the pure Word of God and all things contrary rejected.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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Denny,

I am glad that you are not angry, I wasn't interested in getting into a debate about words, but it seemed in my readings of this thread that you were simply dismissing Kalled's comments without consideration (which definitely doesn't agree with the definitions of tripe or sophistry I know). If Kalled is wrong, and if all emergents everywhere are wrong then they need someone to lay out lovingly and biblically why they shouldn't accept certain people and certain actions into their services (just as you would if you were explaing it to a Charismatic or some of the extreme cases of "Low Church").

The point of quoting Gandhi was not to win an argument but to disply the attitude and the reception that Christians have gotten in this time. It is generally acknowledged that Jesus is good (though most people probably have no idea what Jesus taught) but so many people get turned off to the gospel because they see Christians who don't meet the needs of other Christians, let alone those in distress around us. There's also an economic difference between denominations, Baptist and Charismatic groups are reputed to have more poor and lower middle class people (the common man) while "High Church" denominations supposedly tend to reach mostly upper class persons, or at least thats what I've run into in my studies at university and which has been taught as fact. Now when the lost people around me at school see that we can't even be tolerant to reach people of our own ethnicity but of a different economic background, then how likely are they to think we're willing to reach out to people of other ethnicities or other traditions? I've encountered plenty of people who don't go to church and who don't want to go because of the witness of Christians in their actions. There plenty of lost people who know the Bible, who've read the Institutes (okay, a few less, but still there are people) and there are plenty who have been to church and seen preachers there and on TV and they aren't convinced because Christians aren't much on good works in public.

If laying out an argument was enough then we would have converted the world long ago. If using force was enough, the world would still be ruled by the Pope, but these are not. People (against all that is logical and wise) look at the life and adherents of everyday church going people in order to determine if there's validity and power to a faith. We have a faith which does not require any great sacrifices from us, only to die to self and live in Christ who has set us free and made us acceptable before God. If we as Christians would simply reach people with the means God has given us and with honesty about our struggles as Christians we (I believe) would have growth rates like these "cults" and "heresies" without changing a thing.

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Brother Luke,

I must first express my dismay over the "path" which you have evidently chosen to travel, which is a path away from the "old paths" (Jer 6:16). There is so much that I could comment on in what you have written in this response and your longer previous one that it would take more time than I have available to me. Thus I will simply make my comments brief and direct.

1) Your overview of mankind is contrary to that which God tells us. In His infallible Word, we are told that the whole world is under the influence and power of the Evil One. (Eph 2:2; 1Jh 5:19) And further, there is an innate hatred of God and toward all those who love Him and seek to live before Him in pure holiness and righteousness. Though unregenerate men will find some of the virtues of Christians commendable, particularly where they are benefited from them, they are certainly not drawn to God because of them.

2) This truth leads to this second point which is that NO ONE seeks God. (Job 21:15, 16; Rom 3:10; 8:7, 8; 1Cor 2:14) Men are NOT drawn to Christ because of how one lives out their lives, although admittedly, men's natural hatred of God and Christ is increased by observing the hypocrisy of professing Christians who live not according to the law of God. What you have expressed as being most lacking in the Church today, e.g., failure to feed the hungry, care for the poor, etc., and which if done would surely bring more into the kingdom is not anything new. It's an old heresy which had its heyday earlier in the last century and which was best known as "Incarnation Theology". It was the Liberals who foisted this error on the world, but particularly on the Church and who taught that men will come to know God when they see "Jesus in you" through your "good work" expressed in the reaching out to the poor, etc., socially. (cf. 2Tim 3:12)

3) Like the Liberals of yesterday, the Emerging Church Movement has cast off the objective truths of Scripture, aka: doctrine, and opted for a more subjective view of God thus making truth something relative, pragmatic and situational. Conformity to either a system of dogma or a set of rules which govern one's actions is not only unnecessary, so we are told, but debilitating to the furtherance of true religion. To them, faith comes by the observation of actions expressed, e.g., kindness, sacrifice, tolerance, giving, etc. However, the Scriptures speak otherwise. What we read in Scripture is that faith comes through the preaching of the objective truth concerning God, Christ, man, judgment, etc. (cf. Rom 1:16; 10:8-11, 13-17; 1Cor 1:17, 18; 2Cor 2:17; Heb 4:12, 13).

4) Reliance on outward programs, expressions of social concern which the world deems laudable, worldly methodologies, psychological influences, etc., etc., ad nauseam to build the church (increase numbers) is a fallacy and in essence a reliance upon man rather than God. Those who do so, e.g., the Emerging Church Movement, Church Growth Movement, et al, are no different than those who built the tower of Babel. Through their own efforts; through uniting together in a common cause, they thought they could reach heaven (God) and thus accomplish the ultimate goal and unite the entire human race.


Genesis 11:1-9 (ASV) And the whole earth was of one language and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Come, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. And they said, Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So Jehovah scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off building the city. Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.


But it is the Lord Christ Who is building His Church through HIS means; the preaching of the Gospel and thus calling men to repentance and faith. Men are being called OUT OF this world and INTO a Kingdom not made with men's hands, ideas or efforts. It is by the power of the Spirit that men are called, renewed and transformed into the image of Christ. The Church of the Living Christ is decidedly something different than anything in this corrupt world. Offering an environment which emulates the world to attract those of this world only serves to keep men in their sins and allow them to continue in their rebellion against God. The Church must show forth the glory of God which is totally contrary to everything in this world. It is to be different; not similar or the same as the world. Offering that which the world loves and already possesses is NOT what the Church is to do. Rather, it is to call men to separation from the world. (cf. 1Jh 2:15, 16)


2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (ASV) "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."


I adjure you, Brother Luke, consider seriously the path you are now traveling before you are totally lost and cannot find your way back to the "Old Paths" which lead to eternal life. (Matt 7:13, 14)

In His grace,


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The point of quoting Gandhi was not to win an argument but to disply the attitude and the reception that Christians have gotten in this time.
One of ECM’s favorite people to quote is Gandhi (i.e. called, The Christ of the Indian Road). The ECM when quoting Ghandi are just embracing what is called, Emerging Dalit Theology (read: James Massey, Down Trodden: The Struggle of India’s Dalits for Identity, Solidarity and Liberation. Geneva: WCC, 1997) over the Holy Scriptures.

Gandhi, who is not a Christian, would have never accepted Christ, if Christ himself was “in person” doing miracles, feeding the poor, etc., etc., etc. You assume that depraved man desires to hear the Gospel when in fact they despise it. Only the Holy Spirit regenerates a person, and that, only if they were elect from the very foundation of the world. The enemies of the Church will always find something to complain about—and some of it is merited. However, in spite of the Churches problems, of which there are many, the Church is still accomplishing the mission God has ordained it to do. It will succeed—this we are promised!

That said, the Church today does need to improve its witness on many fronts. However, we DO NOT need ECM, Gandhi, or another depraved individual’s criticism or interpretation of the Holy Writ to reach that conclusion. We have the Word of God which says—“do it.” We have the Holy Spirit to guide, direct, strengthen, and convict us to “do it.” Why do those in the ECM need these “scholars,” that are enemies of the Church, to direct them in doing biblical truth?

The end game of the ECM is merely: "I can do all the Bible says as Satan instructs and strengthens me!" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />


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BrimstonePreacha said:
Joe, you know, I really couldn't decide if I wanted to respond to you or to Pilgrim to maybe Kyle (CovenantInBlood) who seems to have been a bit rude to my friend Kalled,

It amazes me that my "rudeness" should be troublesome to you such that you post a long and caustic rant on your own accord.

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There are likewise numerous people claiming to be emergent who do not represent the entire movement. That is one thing that must be acknowledge and I would hope is admired. These people don't claim to be bound by any other member of the movement and it gives them incredible flexibility which is lacking in certain groups.

Why should we admire willy-nilly, make-your-own-way, post-modern relativistic fluff? What's to admire about a claimed total lack of group cohesion? There is no ultimately no standard to which to appeal to make a judgement, because for "emerging" people, we can't really know objective truth.

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What is it that draws so many people to emergent? The Post-Modernism? I don't think so, it's as hard as the movement is to define.

That's because the central idea of post-modernism is that there is no objective truth. Post-modernism can't be defined because nothing is ultimately definable. As a result, judgement is impossible, and truth is really relegated to subjective and mystical experiences. This lack of judgement and consequent subjectivity and mysticism makes the "emerging church" very appealing.

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What does draw people and what the average joe on the street is looking for is a faith that shows itself out in actions as our dear brother and epistle writing James once put forth, "Faith apart from works is dead." The thing we can say about emergent is that their faith is not dead, can that always be said of us (You and me, us)?

I can certainly say their faith is dead, because their faith is not the faith once for all delivered to the saints! Their actions are nothing more than what any "virtuous" non-Christian might do, but those works are not motivated by the pure Gospel, but by socio-philosophical ideas similar to those that motivated the Social Gospel movement of the late 1800's, in addition to the demonic "growth" philosophy of the megachurch movement, i.e., "be relevant to the culture." "Emerging churches" may not be as concerned with bare numbers, but they are just as concerned with "relevance."

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You know that I love good preaching and I love good doctrinal reading and quotes from great Christians of the past, but what good has simply stating an argument or using complex thoughts done for us? Has preserving the church in a timeless bubble from the first century or from the 16th really won us the world? No, few people are won over to the gospel simply because of a mental component of being unable to argue past it. People are won when they see the benefit and the change of the gospel in the lives of those who have already received that free gift of grace.

Luke, no one is won over to the Gospel either by complex argumentation OR by being cared for materially. The Spirit wins people over to the Gospel by convicting their hearts and speaking peace to them through the Word of God!

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We have failed to engage culture and so we are seen as snobby.

Is it because of a failure to engage, or rather a failure to adopt the unbiblical values of the surrounding culture?

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many of us (thanks Mr. Finney) require people to only make a response to the gospel at a certain time, it's usually after we've bashed the pharisee's throughout the sermon who added to the law.

Is this a legitimate criticism of orthodox Reformed Christianity??

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Emergents aren't looking for great doctrine, you're never going to convince emergents they're wrong by just shouting over the internet "EMERGENTS ARE GOING TO HELL!" All that accomplishes is to create quarrels and fighting and division and to further our (Christiandom in its entirety) image of lacking the very grace we proclaim.

The ones dividing the church are not orthodox believers, but those who proclaim a different gospel. "Emerging" folks aren't looking for great doctrine because they fundamentally don't believe it exists. We don't really understand anything at all, they say.

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Finally, Denny, Kalled wasn't making backhanded accusations but speaking the truth, it is unchristian to make fun of people, or have we all forgotten Paul's words to the Corinthians? "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. . . We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry" (II Corinthians 5:16a and 6:3).

I was the one who said Jeremy was making "backhanded accusations." Why? Because he was accusing "people" of "unchristian behavior" for possibly "making fun of" a blind or mentally handicapped peron, instead of naming names and actually proving his case. Really, I didn't notice anyone making fun of the dog's owner. But frankly, I don't see any biblical principle as flatly prohibiting "making fun of people" (check out "The Lighter Side" forum and see if you think none of that is "making fun of people"), but especially not mocking and deriding the stupid actions of people who think they are worshipping God "in spirit and in truth." You need only examine the instances of God's laughter in Scripture to see that is most frequently derisive of unbelievers.

Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:47 PM.

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Brother Luke

Take this from someone who does not like to be harsh in his replies.
It may seem like people like Pilgrim and Joe are being harsh on movements like the Emergent Church, however given the seriousness of the matter, I think it is appropriate.
Joe for instance backed up what he had to say and if you have issue with him, why not go after what he uses as proof?

Something that bothered me about your post is that you talk as though people like Joe, Pilgrim etc... Spend all there time on the internet and don't do things like help the poor, etc...
I doubt very much that this is the case, but we must remember that the Bible is our source for doctrine and out of that flows our works, not the other way around.
This is the problem with movements such as the Emergent Church; they are too subjective in nature.

Tom

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Tom says: It may seem like people like Pilgrim and Joe are being harsh on movements like the Emergent Church, however given the seriousness of the matter, I think it is appropriate.

Harsh? Absolutely NOT.

Jeremy, YOU are the one who is blind (not that woman in the clip!). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

Everybody's talking about that dog in the video clip, what about the tire used for the Advent wreath and candles?

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janean said:
Everybody's talking about that dog in the video clip, what about the tire used for the Advent wreath and candles?

THat was most deffinitely silly. Although, I think the man was right in saying that they were trying to help the people understand the symbols. If we're going to use various symbols, then we need to make sure our people know what they mean and really understand them. Symbols are supposed to connect with people, not confuse them.

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Kalled2Preach said:
THat was most deffinitely silly. Although, I think the man was right in saying that they were trying to help the people understand the symbols. If we're going to use various symbols, then we need to make sure our people know what they mean and really understand them. Symbols are supposed to connect with people, not confuse them.
The Church has spoken very clearly about the use of such "symbols" in the worship of God. There can be found myriad passages in Scripture that forbid what was seen on that video, particularly using a "tire", of all things.

[color:"blue"]The Westminster Larger Catechism[/color]


Q108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?
A108:
The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his word;[1] particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;[2] the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word;[3] the administration and receiving of the sacraments;[4] church government and discipline;[5] the ministry and maintenance thereof;[6] religious fasting;[7] swearing by the name of God,[8] and vowing unto him:[9] as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship;[10] and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.[11]

1. Deut. 32:46-47; Matt. 28:30; Acts 2:42; I Tim. 6:13-14
2. Phil. 4:6; Eph. 5:20
3. Deut. 17:18-19; Acts 10:88; 15:21; II Tim. 4:2; James 1:21-22
4. Matt. 28:19; I Cor. 11:23-30
5. Matt. 16:19; 18:15-17; I Cor. ch. 5; 12:28
6. Eph. 4:11-12; I Tim. 5:17-18; I Cor. 9:1-15
7. Joel 2:12-13; I Cor. 7:5
8. Deut. 6:13
9. Isa. 19:21; Psa. 76:11
10. Acts 17:16-17; Psa. 16:4
11. Deut. 7:5; Isa. 30:22

Q109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A109:
The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[1] counseling,[2] commanding,[3] using,[4] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[5] tolerating a false religion;[6] the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[7] all worshiping of it,[8] or God in it or by it;[9] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[10] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them;[11] all superstitious devices,[12] corrupting the worship of God,[13] adding to it, or taking from it,[14] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[15] or received by tradition from others,[16] though under the title of antiquity,[17] custom,[18] devotion,[19] good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever;[20] simony;[21] sacrilege;[22] all neglect,[23] contempt,[24] hindering,[25] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[26]

1. Num. 15:39
2. Deut. 13:6-8
3. Hosea 5:11; Micah 6:16
4. I Kings 11:33; 12:33
5. Deut. 12:30-32
6. Deut. 13:6-12; Zech. 13:2-3; Rev. 2:2, 14-15, 20, Rev. 17:12, 16-17
7. Deut. 4:15-19; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:21-23, 25
8. Dan. 3:18; Gal. 4:8
9. Exod. 32:5
10. Exod. 32:8
11. I Kings 18:26, 28; Isa. 65:11
12. Acts 17:22; Col. 2:21-23
13. Mal. 1:7-8, 14
14. Deut. 4:2
15. Psa. 106:39
16. Matt. 15:9
17. I Peter 1:18
18. Jer. 44:17
19. Isa. 65:3-5; Gal. 1:13-14
20. I Sam. 13:11-12; 15:21
21. Acts 8:18
22. Rom. 2:22; Mal. 3:8
23. Exod. 4:24-26
24. Matt. 22:5; Mal. 1:7, 13
25. Matt. 23:13
26. Acts 13:44-45; I Thess. 2:15-16

Q110: What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it?
A110:
The reasons annexed to the second commandment, the more to enforce it, contained in these words, For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments;[1] are, besides God's sovereignty over us, and propriety in us,[2] his fervent zeal for his own worship,[3] and his revengeful indignation against all false worship, as being a spiritual whoredom;[4] accounting the breakers of this commandment such as hate him, and threatening to punish them unto divers generations;[5] and esteeming the observers of it such as love him and keep his commandments, and promising mercy to them unto many generations.[6]

1. Exod. 20:5-6
2. Psa. 45:11; Rev. 20:3-4
3. Exod. 34:13-14
4. I Cor. 10:20-22; Jer. 7:18-20; Ezek. 16:26-27; Deut. 32:16-20
5. Hosea 2:2-4
6. Deut. 5:29




[color:"blue"]The Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 35[/color]


Q96: What does God require in the second Commandment?
A96:
That we in no way make any image of God,[1] nor worship Him in any other way than He has commanded us in His Word.[2]

1. Deut. 4:15-19; Isa. 40:18, 25; Rom. 1:22-24; Acts 17:29
2. I Sam. 15:23; Deut. 4:23-24; 12:30-32; Matt. 15:9; John 4:24

Q97: May we not make any image at all?
A97:
God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures, though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve God by them.[1]

1. Exod. 23:24-25; 34:13-14; Deut. 7:5; 12:3; 16:22; II Kings 18:4; John 1:18

Q98: But may not pictures be tolerated in churches as books for the people?
A98:
No, for we should not be wiser than God, who will not have His people taught by dumb idols,[1] but by the lively preaching of His Word.[2]

1. Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-19
2. II Peter 1:19; II Tim. 3:16-17; Rom. 10:17

In His grace,

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Well if nothing else they've got us all snipping at each other. I didn't know that business about pantheism either. I wonder if CBD knows all this since they have his books prominently displayed in most of their catalogs?

Ah, for a truth we must be wary brothers. These are bad days.


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Here I am responding to my own message because I've been thinking about this since I posted it. I don't want this to sound smarmy or snooty but I love young people in the ministry for the single reason that they don't know there are some things that they can't do. They've read that some folks are going to hell but they're glory bound and full of fire that they're going to give them the gospel anyway. Anyway, I always try to give points for enthusiasm, just make sure you don't "get any on ya".


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doulos said:
They've read that some folks are going to hell but they're glory bound and full of fire that they're going to give them the gospel anyway. Anyway, I always try to give points for enthusiasm, just make sure you don't "get any on ya".
doulos,

Enthusiasm is a marvelous thing, although it isn't something restricted to the "young"; perhaps the young at heart however. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But enthusiasm in and of itself can be and unfortunately usually is the cause of much calamity (aka: impetuosity such as exhibited by Peter). Motivation needs to be wedded to knowledge and wisdom if it is to be profitable. Now, in regard to this "Emerging Church Movement", on the whole, they are NOT.... NOT, I say, "giving them the Gospel", but some man-made fictional story with familiar terms which only ends up hardening the hearts of the enemies of God further, thus making it more difficult (humanly speaking) for those of us who do preach and teach the biblical Gospel. The unfortunate recipients of this "other gospel" are deceived and deluded into thinking that they are "heaven bound", when in fact they are still on the road to perdition while carrying Bibles under their arms and singing obnoxious songs.

A little knowledge can do a whole lot of damage!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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