The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum False Prophets

When I read this scripture the word "secretly" jumps out at me. This tells me that false prophets and teachers knowingly and deliberately do this. I then think about the various charlatans, faith healers, those that preach the prosperity gospel and others and wonder how this would apply to them.

Do they know they are enemies of God and they are purposely (i.e. secretly) bringing heresies into the church deliberately opposing God?

From my observations of the Charismatic movement, I would guess that some false prophets are surely aware that what they are saying is false. They are just in it for the money. I would guess that most of the others think that what they are saying is from the Spirit of God, and their poor grasp of Biblical doctrines do not provide them a means to see that they are speaking lies, and introducing (or rehashing) false theology.

The secretly part I take to mean that before a Benny Hinn talks about the nine persons of the trinity in one of his crusades, he has probably taught that same falsehood to a group of his followers.

I fear that the first group is in the category of reprobates, but hold out hope that some of the second group will repent. They may be sincere, but sincerely wrong.

Kevin

I have to believe that when someone is practicing and teaching wrong doctrine, knowingly and is in no mind of repenting from it, then they have given up bringing glory to God. because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man.

I simply can't understand how people can live with themselves by giving others false hopes of miraculous healing and then covering up the fact that it's a sham, by telling those who are sick that they weren't healed because they don't have enough faith. It makes me angry.

Deep down inside, I believe charasmatics know that they are wrong, because everytime I defend my reformed orthodox views with a charasmatic they get angry with me, very angry. I very very seldom, if at all, get angry with people over their doctrinal views, because I understand the nature of sin. But I have found that charasmatics have a propensity to lose their temper. So this is a clear testamony to me that those charasmatics who lose their temper with reformed doctrine are really angry at the truth and therefore have hid the real truth behind a lie.

Dave.

Kevin

For the first 4-5 years of my Christian walk I was a Charismatic. I was one of the second group that you talked about "sincere but sincerely wrong". I have friends who came out of that movement, who were also in the second category.
However, I know others who are still in the movement, who I believe are in the second category. I however believe that many of them are true Christians nun the less and pray that one day God will to reveal them (as He did to me) the truth about the Charismatic movement.

One thing that I think needs to be stated, is that there are many Charismatics who believe in the doctrines of grace, in fact the first two Calvinists I ever met, were also Charismatics. They were an old couple, who as far as I can tell lived out their lives as models to how we should all live as Christians. I have fond recollections of them.

I also think it is important to realize that when the word "Charismatic" is used, it does not necessarily mean that all have fallen prey to faith healers and the like.
For instance, the last Charismatic Church I went to over 20 years ago, seemed more like your average Baptist Church than a Pentecostal Church.

I mention all that, with the hope that I am not taken to mean I am defending certain Charismatics. For I know that no matter how sincere some Charismatics are, they are still sincerely wrong.
I hope you understand my point.

Tom

And how do YOU know that there are many Charismatics who are Calvinists? Where did you get your information that would substantiate this statement? I too know of a few Calvinists who are non-Cessationists, but I would never state publicly that there are many like them since I do not have any reliable statistics which would support that. Personally, from what I know at present, I would have to say that Charismatic Calvinists are a rarity when compared to the whole. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Since about 1970 quite a number of us ol' Pentecostals began to question DF (dispenssational futurists) eschatology. That does not make you welcome in FundyBaptoPentecostal circles. As we looked about for reasonalbe alternatives, in my family ,and quite a few others the writtings of Chilton,Gentry ,Bahnsen etc gave us a devoutly christian basis and a positive eschatology. They left no question wrt their Calvinism, so for the most part it became a natural extension.
The Calvinist authors presented,aside from Calvinism, a wholly different outlook of and for the church. Exploration and questions were welcome. In DF circles dissent is not tolerated. The reading of authors outside the group is often forbidden outright. In the AOG a local pastor could lose his church by inviting a non approved speaker in. Any thing unsupportive of and not promoting of the any moment rapture is said to be doctrines of demons.
Needless to say this sort of atmosphere does not attract the best and brightest.

Take care

Hitch

Tom,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was not referring to all in the Charismatic movement. It is such a big movement, with so many variations. There are many, many of the Lord’s people in that movement. Like every movement, it has its strengths, and it has it weaknesses.


In my post, I was mainly referring to those in the movement who are teaching false doctrines like described in the passage. The passage in 1 Peter is referring to false teachers who bring in destructive heresies. It is using the false prophets in the past as a comparison to false teachers who will appear in the future. False prophets in the past led people way from God’s truth, and led to immorality. False teachers will lead people away from God’s truth and will lead to immorality. The passage gives us a glimpse into what these people might look like: Lifestyles of greed, immorality, lasciviousness, wantonness, that causes the way of truth to be ridiculed and blasphemed, who exploit their hearers with false words.

From that description, a direct correlation to the scandals of tele-evangelists is called for. Baker, Swaggart, et al clearly seem to be anticipated by this passage, although it is not limited to them. Most of them (not all) fall into the Charismatic camp. That is why I made the connection. Within that group of false teachers, I hold that some are pure frauds, intentionally deceiving their followers. Others I believe are sincere, but sincerely wrong. I would put Swaggert in that last category. I will not defend his theology, or his sin. His bad theology allows him to justify sinfull behaviour in his life. But I believe that he thinks that he is following the way of truth.

My own take on why certain movements attract this sort phenomenon is that although a high view of Scripture is talked about in those circles, it is not really practiced or believed. You can see that from the preaching that takes place. Sloppy exegesis leads to sloppy living, which leads to an environment that fosters and encourages those kinds of teachers. A high view of Scripture with proper exegesis and interpretation provides the only mechanism God has provided to measure the truthfulness of the doctrines and experiences of individuals.


I, too, spent much time in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. My sister was saved at a Benny Hinn crusade. For six years she shared the gospel with me, and was one of the people that the Lord used to draw me to Himself. David Wilkerson was the author of the book that the Lord used in my conversion. I was discipled in a Pentecostal Church. I graduated from a Pentecostal Bible College. But God is merciful. By the grace of God, I came to sit under the ministry of John Piper. It was there that I heard the doctrines of grace for the first time.


Most of the first Calvinists that I met were non-cessationists. (I classify myself as a non-cessationist, but please, let’s not go there.) Like you said, I found that they lived out their lives as models to how we should all live as Christians. Most of my really good friends are Calvinist-non-cessationist. I also have good friends that are Warfieldian cessationists. Their faith is a shining example of the “knowledge of the truth that accords with godliness.” We have found that there is so much glorious truth that we can agree on, that we can agree to disagree on that one issue.

Blessings,

Kevin

Pilgrim

When I said "there are many", I was not saying that they are the majority. In fact I do not have statistics either, but I have run into quite a few over the years who fall under that category.
Perhaps my wording is wrong, if so how should I have worded it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Perhaps, to be more realistic and accurate you could have stated it like: "In my own personal experience, I have met a few Calvinists who hold to a non-Cessationism position." <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,