The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Worship and Change...

Is it worthwhile for a church to change their worship style to reflect the likes and dislikes of their younger members or is this a compromise to be avoided at any cost?

What is wrong with everyone changing to a "biblcal worship" and not necessarily pleasing men (young or old), but God alone?

doulos,


Are we willing to compromise the Gospel and obedience to God's words, in order to cause our children to be comfortable and "happy"?

These are our post-modern children who are daily fed and are being deceived by a world that's on its way to a self-justified oblivion. These are our children who are daily assaulted with MTV and movies such as Brokeback mountain. There is so much here and about this deceit (as you well know) that it has even entered our churches with a vengeance.


Which part of this Scripture are we going to compromise?

My answer to your question (and I think you already agree) is not only yes we will avoid compromise, but we will absolutely avoid this world's disgusting tyranny at any cost.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

While I don't see certain contemporary styles of worship as being “un-biblical,” I do believe that no matter what, it should all be Christ centric and God honoring. I myself am drawn to a more reverent, historic, reformed, orthodox and traditional style of worship, but I am not adamant on demanding that the churches worship be a purely regulative style.

Now, with saying this, I know that this has been discussed here many times before. So I understand that there is a difference of opinion. All I’m saying is that, “yes,” I do agree with Jonathan Edwards, I firmly believe and am convicted by the Word of God that our worship must be conducted in a way that gives Him all the glory, in a way that honors Him and in a way that is purely focused on Him and His Word.

But I don’t see that a purely, historical, orthodox and traditional style of worship is the only God honoring style of worship. I enjoy new contemporary songs and I enjoy having instruments as a part of the worship. Again, as long as it is all done in a reverent way that honors God. I’m not talking about a huge praise production that glorifies us.

As with anything, I believe that there has to be a balance and that it has to be biblical. Your church shouldn’t change worship styles to “accommodate” anyone. Nothing should be done to please anyone except God. So to answer your Question Doulos, I don’t believe that your church leaders should make any decisions based on any pressure being put on them by what people want that pleases them. But…… if an argument is made that is scriptural about maybe “adjusting” your worship style a little that is not “un-biblical,” then I think that would be ok. I think worship should be calm reverent and serious, but it should also be joyful and triumphant and I think that adding an element of a more contemporary praise feel to a worship style isn’t bad.

With saying this, though, I’m a little afraid of the response that will come, but I’m going to put myself out here on this issue anyway. Because I enjoy both styles of worship as long as they are done correctly. So please be loving and patient with me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

Do you believe in the Lutheran approach to worship (whatever is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible is acceptable) or the Reformed approach (only worship as commanded in God's Word)?

Like Cain, who sought to bring an offering to God, but in the wrong way, Churches are under the false impression that as long as they are not doing something that is condemned in the Word, as long as they are lead by what they think are appropriate motivations, there is no limit as to what they may do. But God does not leave it up to us to decide how we are to worship Him. We are regulated by the Word of God in our worship. Many miss the theological relationship that exists between sola scriptura and the regulative principle of worship. However, the regulative principle of worship is directly related to sola scriptura doctrines (i.e. infallibility, absolute authority, sufficiency and perfection of Scripture). Sola scriptura teaches that the Bible regulates all of life—this includes worship.

The 1st commandment expresses the principle that we may not worship any other god than the LORD. The 2nd commandment articulates how we worship whom we must. It lays down the principle that we are to worship God in the manner God stipulates. When Israel worshipped the golden calf, they expressly affirmed they were not violating the 1st commandment (worshipping other gods), however they were violating the 2nd commandment (in a way other than how God had commanded). Saul decided to worship God the way he desired and failed to wait on Samuel. We could also speak of Uzziah offering God the service of reaching out his hand to steady the ark when it was in danger of falling and then being smitten to death. In 2 Chronicles 30, Hezekiah gave a worship service to God in Jerusalem, which consisted of observance of the Passover. However, he blew it because many had not kept the ceremonial rules of cleansing themselves. Good intentions are not enough. The positive implication of the 2nd commandment is that God –and God alone– will determine how we must worship Him (compare: Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 35, the WCF, XXI, and the WLC, 109).

Thus, though I think that you would concur that worship includes what Olds/Bucer reveals above, what type of music is truly “reverent?” Luther says something of interest (not necessarily correct) here,

Thus, what songs and music are acceptable by your standards and how do they compare to the Word of God? Would you give us an example (names of songs, artists, tempo, beat, rhythm, etc.) of modern music that you consider to be included in "biblical worship?"

PS: anyone may answer these questions, not just Puritan.

I think making blanket statements either way is the thing to be avoided at all costs. More contemporary music can truly reflect a deep reverence for God, and traditional services can become so stale that the hearts of worshipers are never truly lifted in adoration. But on the other hand, modern services can cross a line into mere entertainment while liturgical ones can open congregates up to truly experiencing the majesty of God. It's not about the style. It's about the focus of those who lead and follow.

Dave,

Although I strongly disagree with your vacillation between biblical worship and contemporary worship; I see them as antithetical, I will not you!

What I will do is share a passage of Scripture which years ago had a profound impact on the way I understood "worship in spirit and TRUTH", long before I understood the Reformed Faith as being cosmological (a worldview). I shall not offer any commentary on the passage but simply supply it with the intent that you read it carefully, meditate upon it and pray to the Lord for wisdom in applying it.


In His grace,

For the sake of clarity, would you be so kind as to enumerate those "elements" which define contemporary worship, e.g., the type of music (rhythm and lyrics) and other such things and which you would say distinguish it from traditional worship?

Although I am assuming you wouldn't condone just ANY "style", your statement does open the proverbial door of pure subjectivity and acceptance of just about anything just as long as the "focus of those who lead and follow" is satisfactory. But this surely begs several questions such as: what is acceptable "focus"? what regulates this "focus"? was Cain's "focus" acceptable to the Lord? what does one worshiping the Lord in "truth" entail? et al <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

No I do not believe that whatever is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible is acceptable.


I’m a little confused here, Jeff. This statement means that you don’t consider any type of contemporary worship styles as Biblical. Well I guess I disagree with you on this point. I believe that the Bible tells us to sing praises, play instruments and sing melodies to the Lord.

I’m not good at remembering song titles or the artists that do contemporary worship songs. So I’m sorry, but the only song and artist that comes to the top of my head right now is Rich Mullins and one of His more famous songs, God is an Awesome God. This is just an example of what I would consider contemporary praise music.

I also think that maybe having a guitar, or similar instruments is considered contemporary. Please rebuke me if I’m wrong here, because I would like a better understanding of this. But here are a few versus that I think might support a more “contemporary” style of service.

Ephesians 5:19 (NASB) speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Psalm 92:1-4. (NASB) It is good to give thanks to the LORD And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High; To declare Your loving kindness in the morning And Your faithfulness by night, With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp, With resounding music upon the lyre. For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You have done, I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands.

2 Samuel 6:5. (NASB) Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.

1 Chronicles 13:8 (NASB) David and all Israel were celebrating before God with all their might, even with songs and with lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals and with trumpets.

Psalm 33:2 (NASB) Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre; Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings.

Psalm 98:5 (NASB) Sing praises to the LORD with the lyre, With the lyre and the sound of melody.


How do these versus come into play in our interpretation of what is Biblical in our worship?

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

This is exactly why I think trying to make blanket statements using these terms is so flawed. Contemporary is such a broad genre, now. It seems to range from songs meant to be used during worship services to those written more for radio play.

The same goes for traditional. The timeline for a traditional song's authorship keeps creeping ever nearer. Some even feel all that is necessary is the switch from guitar to organ and viola. The song is "fixed."

I do not think that rhythm is so easy to define in a medium such as this but I will say that lyrics which convey the truths found in scripture and creeds coupled with an arrangement which keeps the worshiper within the realm of the fruits of the Spirit such as love, joy, peace, etc. are an excellent place to start.


Acceptable focus is and always will be that which is pleasing to God. The inclusion of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs along with a variety of instruments is shown through scripture as acceptable forms of worship.

I seem to get the impression that you do not feel contemporary music capable of being acceptable or "truth." May I ask why not?

So you like the music of Rich Mullins, Ragamuffin Band- promoter of the Ragamuffin Gospel (author, Brennan Manning, a Roman Catholic). What do you find enjoyable about simplistic, childish, casual/irreverent language such as:

Or his song, "The Love of God," where he refers to God’s love as “reckless?”

Do you not think that words, melody, harmony, form, etc., should reflect the textual and emotional maturity, richness, and Godward focus of the biblical text? IMO songs much like Mullins are like the NIV version of the Bible! They are just a paraphrased version of something not truly established in sola scriptura. WORDS are very important. I do not like to sing about a casual god who is “rolling up his sleeves” or “ain't just puttin' on the ritz!” These words just don’t seem to encompass real worship to the real God. They seem to have lost the “spirit and truth” of the real Gospel. I cannot call Mullin's phrases reverent, can you? All that said I do think Rich Mullins was a Christian, however one that was mis-directed when it came to the genuine worship of God.

This and many other songs today Christians enjoy "clapping" their hands to. However, how many here can say they have ever done a study on the Jewish liturgy of hand clapping? Haven't most just Americanized "clapping" to what they think "clapping" means? A serious study here may surprise some (i.e. Psalms 47 has nothing to do with rhythmic clapping to music)!

Hey all,

I will take "anyone" to mean me too.

Here are the lyrics of a few contemporary songs that I think are great, and can be included in a worship service. There are many of the newer songs that are definitely God-centered and Christ-exalting. We are living in an amazing time; a time when extremely moving songs of love, joy, worship, and commitment to Christ are being written, and at the same time, some of the worst fluff ever penned by man. Yet, hasn't every generation had that same problem?

I don't necessarily endorse the individuals who write the songs I have listed, but the words I feel are excellent. The same is true with some of the more traditional hymns. Many of the words are excellent, but I wouldn't endorse the hymnwriter.

In Christ Alone - The Newsboys(??)

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Till on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost it's grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Brought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
'Till He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand


Shout To The Lord - Darlene Zschech

My Jesus, My Savior
Lord there is none like you
All of my days, I want to praise
The wonders of your mighty love
My Comfort, My Shelter
Tower of refuge and strength
Let every breath, all that I am
Never cease to worship you

(Chorus)
Shout to the Lord, all the earth Let us sing.
Power and majesty, praise to the king.
Mountains bow down and the seas will roar
At the sound of your name
I sing for joy at the work of your hands
Forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in you!

The first one is more like a traditional hymn, but confesses freely the soverignty of God. The second is a prayer song, one that delcares the infinite value of Christ above all things.

Kevin

First of all, I'm a little tired of this kind of reply to my posts. I think I've been around here long enough for you to know my doctrinal positions.

Did I say that I agree with Rich Mullins theology? Did I say that I agree with all his song lyrics? Did I say that we should use all of his songs in our worship? No, please stop putting words in my mouth. I just mentioned one of his songs that I've sung before in my churches worship, probibly the only song of his that has been used.

I believe I made myself very clear when I stated that I'm not very good at remembering song titles and artists names. This was just someone I thought of off the top of my head.

There are a lot of good contemporary praise songs and they aren't childish.

I never mentioned "clapping" my hands, did I? I don't think that I did. But because you mentioned it, no I do not think hand clapping is wrong either.

Psalm 92:1-4. (NASB) It is good to give thanks to the LORD And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High; To declare Your loving kindness in the morning And Your faithfulness by night, With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp, With resounding music upon the lyre. For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You have done, I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands.

I am not charismatic at all, at all. I'm not talking about or refering to a charismatic, emotional driven and un-reverent style of service at all. I believe I was pretty clear in my first post, that contemporary worship styles can be reverent and edifying. We are told to be "joyful" and to make a "joyful noise." Well, we clap our hands because we are joyful. We are giving God praise for all the blessings He has graced us with. I don't believe there is anything wrong with expressing joy during the worship service.

You haven't addressed my scriptural references either.

I attend a PCA church and we sing contemporary praise music along with "Hymns" and "psalms." It is done in a reverent way and it is very honoring to God and yes, even us PCA Presbyterians clapp our hands lightly on a song or two. I believe it is a very well done "blended" service that uses several forms of music in a "Biblical" way.

So I don't have anything against contemporary worship styles, and until I am convinced otherwise from scripture that it is against the will of God to use instruments and or sing anything but the psalms, I will continue to believe what I believe.

Now with saying that, I know people are different. Plain and simple, and so It is very hard for everyone to see eye to eye. Like I've stated before and I believe I've made it very clear, I prefer a more regulative church worship.

I would enjoy just singing the psalms a cappella, but strangely enough, there is not one single congregation in the whole entire area that I live in that does this type of worship.

Even the most "reformed" Presbyterian church in my area, uses a piano.

Like I stated in my first post, I know how others on these boards feel about this, i've read the threads. I also humbly asked for your reply's to be in a loving manner. I'm sorry if I upset anyone by my opinions and again, If someone could show me from scripture that modern contemporary songs and music is "unbiblical" than I would most certainly take it into consideration.

But if it's the case where you just don't like any type of change and are firmly rooted in a strict regulative style of worship, that's fine, but don't attack me and try to make me feel like I'm "childish" and "irreverent."

I'm not going to spend the time digging around trying to find contemporary songs that are reverent and edifying. Because I know that everyone is aware of them. I enjoy my churches worship service very much and all the contemporary songs they select are good, edifying and God honoring.

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

We need to remember that true worship involves more than just words and music. The author of any given title is part and parcel with their work. The more one knows about the author(s) the more about that person’s character (and thus theology) is interjected into personal worship. It is impossible to isolate one from the other. This will either enrich or make worship more difficult, or even corrupt.

While I have not checked into the singer Darlene Zschech, I have the News Boys. Every time I hear them I think of long haired hippy, loud, happy—clappy, dancing twisting obnoxious noise that could hardly inspire me to worship the God of the universe in a reverent manner. Thus, while some of the words of their music may be fine, when translated into life (true theology is that which is lived out) it is corrupt for worship. Listening to them signing while I prepared this post was hardly edifying.

Not only do you have groups like the News Boys above which offer alternative worship styles, but I have experienced two PCA Churches with their idea of “modern worship.” These two cases are extreme, however both are in need of reprimand. One played an edited version of the Bee Gees’ “Stayin' Alive” and the other used an edited version of Pink Floyd’s "Money.” The sermon for the later was concerning tithing. The sermon for the first was dead before it left the pastor’s lips. Both are outside Regulative Worship and are irreverent, unbiblical, and inspired in me anything but worship. I should have sang, “These Boots are Made for Walking” on the way out the door. If Nancy Sinatra had been thinking of the modern trash in worship today when she sang the words below she would have been correct:

See link.

No, and I didn’t say YOU did. What I stated is, “This and many other songs today Christians enjoy "clapping" their hands to.” YOUR name was not mentioned, but the statement is still true! However, YOU “now” state that YOU do agree with hand clapping—what version of clapping do YOU agree with? (i.e. the American football hand clapping, rhythm clapping, or the ancient Jewish liturgy of hand clapping). Have you studied this out?

What is the need of addressing them as none of them disprove the regulative principle? Which one of them proves that irreverent music is allowed to be played for worship?

And where did I say it was against Scripture to sing hymns or use instruments? Regulative Worship (from my viewpoint) is not against such—however it is against the misuse of such. (yes, I know some using the regulative principle are against such--and they are sincerely wrong).

Dave no one is jumping on you and please don’t interpret my post as such—you do us both an injustice. If you will notice my former post was full of questions. Their intent was to make you think through the matter at hand from a biblical perspective and not “react” as you have. I do not doubt your sincerity on the issue, however one may be sincerely wrong about a given issue as well and be doing himself/herself harm in the Kingdom—a point that was brought out in the commentary on Mullins above (i.e. “All that said I do think Rich Mullins was a Christian, however one that was mis-directed when it came to the genuine worship of God.”).