Donations for the month of July


We have received a total of "$0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Rick Bates
Rick Bates
Charlestown, R.I. US
Posts: 197
Joined: January 2020
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,532
Posts53,976
Members970
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,224
Tom 4,222
chestnutmare 3,211
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,838
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 15
Tom 12
jta 9
John_C 3
Meta4 3
Recent Posts
Dispensational Description
by NetChaplain - Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 PM
Coach Wins Case
by jta - Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:16 AM
There is a Fountain ~ William Cowper
by Rick Bates - Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:35 PM
First Work, Sins—Second Work, Sin!
by NetChaplain - Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:09 AM
Nicene Creed Question
by jta - Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:28 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#32667 Thu May 11, 2006 10:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,838
John_C Offline OP
Permanent Resident
OP Offline
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,838
In May's Tabletalk, there are several articles refuting the Da Vinci Code from various angles. One that made an impact with me and it should with Christians as a whole is the question - what is the agenda behind it. Not necessarily from Brown, the book's author, but his is just one of many. This quote comes from a paragraph in Peter R. Jones article highlighting the agenda.

Quote
The agenda of The Da Vinci Code is revealed clearly by Tim Freke, author of an equally radical book on Jesus, The Jesus Mysteries: Was the Original Jesus a Pagan God? When interviewed about the significance of Brown's novel, he said, "People are looking for and hoping for a new interpretation of Christianity."

And, another article from Tabletalk, by Robert M Norris, speaks of the need for discernment. Why does this obvious fictional and an erroneous account cause so much stir among Christians.

So, we have an outright attack on one hand, and Christian immaturity on the other. Sadly, some of the attacks are coming from within the church, even conservative, bible-believing churches, with its new formulations of classical reformation Christianity. Plus Christians are becoming increasingly ignorant of the Bible.

I do not mention this in terms of their being an answer; however, this is what God is giving us to deal with.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
John,

I've found this quote from John Calvin to be especially enlightening. The quote is from Calvin's A Short Treatise (1543)

Quote
Many inquire not to know the truth, but to get an answer to their liking. And our Lord, in order to punish them for their hypocrisy, lets them find what they were seeking.

You quoted Tim Freke as saying:

Quote
"People are looking for and hoping for a new interpretation of Christianity."

I don't believe there is anything "new" here with the Da Vinci Code. It's the same very old evil quest for self-righteousness, self-justification and sin. There is an alarming increase in blasphemy and hatred of Christianity in our most recent post-modern age and the popularity of The Da Vinci Code is just one more good example.

It now seems that every religion known to man is now considered tolerable and "enlightening" excepting true Christianity. I'm afraid there's much more to come and it may just come in the form of a more direct attack on the very best of our remaining "intolerant" and faithfully exclusive Christian churches.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Though the DVC is evil, there is much good coming some reinforcing the fortress of truth. It is literally forcing some to have to preach doctrine once again instead of other options. Christians and others are asking questions, some are reviving their interest in theology and history and even pastors are being forced to study, once again. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

What others agenda is, is interesting, but of little concern. Our goal is to discover what God's agenda is, for He and He alone allowed it. Why? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Two generations ago the Da Vinci Code wouldn't even be a topic of discussion among Christians. It would just be another book with poor scholarship, incorrect data, and of little interest to the church. I believe the reason this book has attained the notoriety that it has is because the church has become weak and lacks knowledge of church history and the Bible. If as you say this book is moving people to study their Bibles and church history then even though it was intended for evil God will use it for good.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Maybe to wake the church up for the need to study theology and church history.

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416
Quote
John_C quotes:
"Plus Christians are becoming increasingly ignorant of the Bible."


After doing some research online, I came across this little fact. In 1647, in the Massachusetts Bay in New England, there was an act passed called "The Old Deluder Act."

Quote
Here is what it says:

It being one chief project of that old deluder, Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures, as in former times by keeping them in an unknown tongue, so in these latter times by persuading from the use of tongues, that so that at least the true sense and meaning of the original might be clouded and corrupted with false glosses of saint-seeming deceivers; and to the end that learning may not be buried in the grave of our forefathers, in church and commonwealth, the Lord assisting our endeavors.
It is therefore ordered that every township in this jurisdiction, after the Lord hath increased them to fifty households shall forthwith appoint one within their town to teach all such children as shall resort to him to write and read, whose wages shall be paid either by the parents or masters of such children, or by the inhabitants in general, by way of supply, as the major part of those that order the prudentials of the town shall appoint; provided those that send their children be not oppressed by paying much more than they can have them taught for in other towns.

And it is further ordered, that when any town shall increase to the number of one hundred families or householders, they shall set up a grammar school, the master thereof being able to instruct youth so far as they may be fitted for the university, provided that if any town neglect the performance hereof above one year that every such town shall pay 5 pounds to the next school till they shall perform this order.

The interesting thing here is in the realization that the main reason that these townships were setting up primary schools was for the purpose of making their children literate so that they could read the Holy Scriptures for themselves.

So in early Colonial America, children were going to school to become literate so as to be able to read the Bible.

During this time in American history, Colonial children were brought up in the Scriptures. They attended church where the Bible was read and preached from. (in which Scripture reading, sermons and the worship service lasted a lot longer then today) They were required to learn and know primers and catechisms. There was also Bible reading in the home or in public places.(when people couldn't own a Bible for themselves)

Now of course, I don't expect our secular culture to ever become like this and my focus isn't on our culture. My focus is on the church. I think it's incredible that in the past you had a whole society stringently advocating and or enforcing Bible literacy and today, you can't even find this kind of focus in the Church.

The Church has lost pretty much all disciplinary power, even the Reformed Church. There is nothing a Church can really do to "require" it's members to take Bible reading and study seriously. All it can do, is have a strong focus on Scripture from the pulpit and from the Sunday School curriculum and "encourage" it's members to read their Bibles. It can require the church leaders (elders/deacons) to study and take tests, but this is only a small part of the congregation. So basically at the end of it all, all the church can do is urge and encourage members to read their Bibles.

The problem in this of course is that there are people who are not going to have the desire to read their Bibles. So the question is, should we "force" people in the church to read and learn their Bibles? The early colonial people seemed to think so. They seemed to think that in order to preserve and protect the Protestant Church from Err and Heresy, that what was needed to prevent Satan from destroying the church and culture, was requiring "all" of it's people to learn and know the Bible.

When I was a member of the PCUSA, the Da Vinci Code was published and to my utter frustration and amazement, it was a topic of interest in that church. It reflected/mirrored the congregations lack of Biblical knowledge. There was even a Sunday School class on it, where it was viewed as interesting and not refuted! There was a total lack of understanding of Gnosticism and how damaging and heretical the Da Vinci Code was. They simply just didn't understand the implications of the book all because they didn't know their Bibles. Words like "heresy", "err", and "apostasy" are "no-no" words. These are words of intolerancy, of fundimental right winged ultra-conservative bigots. So things like the Da Vinci Code, because they are the newest hype are embraced because it is a cause for socialization. A good means to draw and keep people interested in coming back to church.

In today's market driven, seeker sensitive, mega-church ideology, anything that might drive away the "goats" is looked upon as wrong. The main focus in these churches is keeping members (especially the reprobate) and to grow. So the focus ultimately shifts from sound Biblical truth and giving God glory to that of secular thought and giving the self glory. So obviously when this happens, the Bible starts to become less and less important, to the point that, it only serves to provide moral narratives to encourage right living dictated by secular thought.

For further reading go to this article on Banner of Truth.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Dave.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
I remember a year or so ago we had a Sunday School lesson that went through some very basic theology ideas. The five points and a few other odds and ends. I was absolutely floored at all the crying and whining about how hard it was. Recently we started a huge doctrinal study and I thought to myself "OK, maybe we'll iron some of this out." Nothing doing. Folks appear to be just slogging through and even the material is full of errors.

I am a little horrified at this, though not surprised.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
You may enjoy this resource TheTruthAboutDaVinci.com

Test yourself by taking the on-line quiz (mid-right side of page)


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
I haven't read the book (nor will I) but I did manage to score an 80 on the test.

I missed #6 (re: Mary Magdelene)

and #8 (re: Holy Grail)

I know for a fact that it is not an impossibility to touch a piece of artwork in the Louvre because I was escorted out of the Louvre by two very big men for touching the base of "Winged Victory."

It was placed in an alcove-ish kind of spot with a skylight above it, standing on a pedastal that lifted it above one's head. It was so beautiful and ethereal in that shaft of light that I just sort of absent mindedly, impulsively reached out and touched the base (which was not part of the statue) and soon found myself escorted to the door. They were very nice and I was allowed to return the next day, but that day they weren't very happy with me.

I was just 16 years old at the time and was one of those kinds of kids who never got in trouble. (I am ashamed to tell you that it was all sort of exciting at the time. . .and I was a bit of a hero to the other high school kids on the tour)


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,838
John_C Offline OP
Permanent Resident
OP Offline
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,838
I made a 70 (at least I got the Mary Magdeline question correct)

I wonder if I had read the book or go to the movie, would my score would be higher.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
If you follow the information in the DVC you would actually make a worse score.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Quote
J_Edwards said:
You may enjoy this resource TheTruthAboutDaVinci.com

Test yourself by taking the on-line quiz (mid-right side of page)

Ninty percent I was off on the date of the council of Nicea. Three lousy years.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 201
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 201
Quote
The problem in this of course is that there are people who are not going to have the desire to read their Bibles. So the question is, should we "force" people in the church to read and learn their Bibles?

How is anyone going to "force" anyone else to read there Bible?

As far as some congregations lack of desire to read Scripture, there is definately a connection to the church itself and what the leadership believes and teaches. You spoke again about your prior church problems. I could substitute the words "emergent church" in your paragraph of your church embracing the DaVinci code and describe my prior church almost exactly!

Well at that church, and probably most embracing emergent and other errors as such, what became clear to me is that the pastors where not standing on Scripture Alone. There, the Bible is not THE final authority, but the Holy Spirit and one's relationship with Christ is (thus experiences become the final authority).

When the Bible becomes just one of the means for people getting to know God, then what incentive is there to read Scripture and have a passion for it? When they aren't taught that Scripture is the actual Word of God and that the relationship with Jesus and His Holy Spirit in itself is enough, then what drives the desire to Scripture? This is what I clearly saw that was subtly taught and embraced by some of our main leadership at my prior church. It's like the Bible is something else other than the actual Word of God.

I think this is the whole "key" missing - the focus on Scripture and Scripture Alone. Today we have experiences driving what is being taught from the pulpit, what is in worship, etc. etc.

No small wonder that disciplinary powers of churches are missing when the Word isn't even being believed by the church leaders themselves. How can pastors carry out proper discipline when they don't even have a conviction of what that should be? We also saw this at our prior church. Just one example --There was a situation of our sr. pastor re-marrying a prior church member who got divorced. My husband and I knew about the situation and clearly knew it was wrong for our new sr. pastor to remarry her to someone else! He did it anyways. It was his way to show Christ's grace to her we were told. There are a few other situations that my husband, as an Elder there, was not happy and gave his disapproval to some of the decisions the pastor wanted to do.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,224
Likes: 43
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,224
Likes: 43
Quote
janean said:
When the Bible becomes just one of the means for people getting to know God, then what incentive is there to read Scripture and have a passion for it? When they aren't taught that Scripture is the actual Word of God and that the relationship with Jesus and His Holy Spirit in itself is enough, then what drives the desire to Scripture? This is what I clearly saw that was subtly taught and embraced by some of our main leadership at my prior church. It's like the Bible is something else other than the actual Word of God.
Janean,

Methinks we have discussed this topic before? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> And my contention is that the blame cannot be totally thrust upon the church but rather shared by those who profess to be believers. The desire isn't manufactured and then distributed by the church a pastor nor any other created being, but rather the true desire to read God's infallible Word and to conform oneself to it in all areas of life is the fruit of the Spirit, aka: regeneration, wherein a new nature is created and which it expresses itself in love toward God and the putting off of the old man and the putting on the new. If that hasn't taken place; regeneration, then all the faithful preaching and teaching in the word isn't going to motivate anyone to read the Bible never mind repent of sin and live a life of holiness.

To be sure, where the pure preaching of the gospel and the application of the teachings of Scripture are weak or absent, a true believer will wane in the exercise of godliness, e.g., reading the Bible. However, it will never die completely. In fact, I believe that where there is true spiritual life in a redeemed sinner, the desire to be fed the meat of the Word will drive a person to seek for it wherever he/she can find it, even if it means leaving a congregation where they have been members for many years. You are certainly a perfect example of that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, again my point is that it isn't just the church which is responsible for its members lack of desire to read and to conform to the teachings of the Bible, but rather a duel responsibility of both the church AND the individual regardless of the presence of new life or not. Responsibility before God is not dependent upon ability. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 277
They've moved the link:
quiz


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 48 guests, and 15 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Nana Dadzie Jr., Cliniql, John E, ManassehAmerican, jta
970 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
July
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,350,623 Gospel truth