The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Presumptive Regeneration

John tells me that this has been discussed here before, so my apologies if this has been addressed recently.

I was in AMsterdam with my husband recently, and we walked through the old district which is of course perfectly lovely with regard to architecture, and a veritable cesspool morally. What was it that caused Holland to fall so far? Some have said it is the doctrine of presumptive regeneration. What is that, and what have been its steps that led to Holland's fall? Has it/Is it happening here? What other facotrs contributed to Holland's demise? Could it not have been the pride of its commercial success? Or are these two things related? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sick.gif" alt="" />

E. F. Grant,


One does not have to go far in the US to find this same kind of depravity (try Holly Wood, San Francisco or Las Vegas).

I was a front-line witness to the fall of the Dutch mainline denomination CRC (Christian Reformed Church). I do not know how much the idea of presumptive regeneration played in her demise and should leave that to the experts. I do know that liberal and liberation theology played a huge role and I suspect (guessing) that the liberal heretics were a major attack force in the European Holland churches as well. IMO, presumptive regeneration is a very liberal idea in the first place. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />


Materialism and disobedience to the Tenth Commandment seems always to make fertile ground for heresy and idolatry and as such, leftist politics and Socialism now tends to be the rule in all of Europe. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

That's an intriguing statement, to be sure: "...presumptive regeneration is a very liberal idea in the first place."

The people I know who hold to presumptive regeneration would faint dead away at the bare suggestion they're in any way "liberal."

I'm not arguing against your statement, just wondering how PR qualifies as liberal, exactly?

TheClingingVine,


I see where you're coming from but I tend to look at it this way. IMO, there is only a very small step from presumptive regeneration to universalism (God loves everyone). Presumptive regeneration often assumes elected children on the part of parents without faithful care and instruction in their upbringing. Or, a tendency towards a physical inheritance rather than a spiritual one. To me, this is the same fault found in the Federal Vision.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

1) What is it? Presumptive Regeneration takes many forms, i.e., it is expressed in various degrees. But the crux of the matter is a presumption that covenant children are automatically elect, regenerate, saved and/or are to be considered Christians. Again, how it is defined depends upon those who hold to the view.

One of the threads which you may wish to review can be found here: Covenant members and more. In one of my replies in that thread found here: My Reply #7600, I included an attachment "Form for the Baptism of Infants", with my personal emphasis marked out within the document to illustrate this doctrine and the errors it contains.

2) Contribution to the fall of the Dutch churches? It would be silly for me to speculate to what degree Presumptive Regeneration played in the demise (apostasy) of the Dutch Reformed churches. However, that it played a significant part cannot be disputed, IMHO. The fact that any church allows membership without requiring a valid profession of faith will always result in unbelievers and their influence to bring negative affects upon the congregation. Remember, that Presumptive Regeneration says that ALL covenant children are to be presumed saved unless they openly reject/deny Christ, etc. Such unbelievers can and have succeeded in holding ordained offices within the church; offices of authority which allow those occupying them to teach others and/or to formulate ecclesiastical policy and doctrine.

3) Is it happening here? Of course.... Those churches who hold to Presumptive Regeneration are inherently susceptible to the evils it brings. And, IMHO, those who hold to Presumptive Regeneration are even more susceptible to the present danger of NPP, Federalism, etc.

4) What other factors led to Holland's demise? Everything? The Church has always been and always will be a positive influence upon the world. But, it is never going to be the dominant influence whereby the world becomes "Christianized", unless of course, you hold to Postmillennialism and believe in the alleged future "Golden Age". In other words, the churches in Holland (mainly speaking of the Dutch Reformed denominations) by allowing unbelievers to have authority in their churches allowed the influences of the world to enter thereby effectively removing the positive influence it had for many years in restraining evil in the country.

In His grace,

OK, so I guess PR is another name for Covenantal Succession, a tempting doctrine when I first read of it, but I simply see too much evidence, bith Biblical and empirical, against it.

THANKS.

Denny,

Actually, those who hold to Presumptive Regeneration strongly stress "faithful care and instruction" on the part of parents for their children. The error is that they "presume" the salvation of those children and thus the instruction consists not of a call to repentance and belief upon Christ unto justification (since they already presume them to be Christian, saved, or whatever) but rather the emphasis is upon sanctification. As one proponent of Presumptive Regeneration told me, "You don't tell your children to believe upon Christ in order to be saved, but rather you encourage them to be obedient to the covenant; sanctification. In simple terms, parents are to assure their children that they belong to Christ already and they should therefore live holy lives..... aka: synergism.

You are correct, as I also mentioned in my reply to go E. F. Grant, that Presumptive Regeneration opens the door wide for the heresies of NPP, Federal Vision, etc., since they share some common elements re: "covenant".

In His grace,

Pilgrim,


There are numberless churches that regard this as unimportant! In your opinion, what might a "valid profession of faith" entail?

Thanks

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Denny,

Your question sounds like a perfect candidate for a new thread!

Pilgrim,

I agree that I confused the issue.


This "presumptive regeneration" quote is an upside down Gospel or a slide toward "legalism" is it not?

Thanks

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

And if I may add to this question, is this the reason why Anglicans do a "Confirmation"? (Other than the fact that it stems from the RC First Communion?)

I'm not sure how one would accurately describe it, but it sure does remind me of a couple of passages in Scripture where "covenant children" were addressed:



In both of these quotes from John the Baptist and the Lord Christ respectively, presumption of one's standing with God due to a covenant heritage is soundly rejected and the need for individual repentance and faith in Christ is set forth. And let me emphasize that this is NOT "Baptist" theology... It is Biblical Theology.

In His grace,

BOOYAH!
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thewave.gif" alt="" />

Eleanor,

Even though I knew that Amsterdam had become the armpit of the world I never really read much about the moral decline in Holland before. Your questions motivated me to do a little research and I found History of Religion in the Netherlands in the Wikipedea free encyclopedia.

You may find this helpful. Sadly I think we can see many parallels to the USA during the 60s and forward.


Wes

Wes,

Thanks for the interesting link. I'm surprise there is no mention of Abraham Kuyper in the entry.