The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum God's Sovereignty

Hello everyone,

I've just registered to post this question...I don't intend to stick around but I really need some help understanding things.

Before I continue I am not a stick in the mud Arminian, in fact I'm not an Arminian at all. I'm definitely a calvinist, just a confused one. (i.e. not understanding how it could be true but knowing it is true) I'm honestly asking some questions, so please don't get angry at me!

So what about the fall? God is sovereign it wasn't a surprise, but since evil is totally contrary to God's character and he hates it I don't see why he would have planned it. It just seems...I dunno... strange. I read somewhere (don't ask me where, I forget) that God only planned the fall to happen but as he didn't actually sin the sin himself that proves he wasn't going contrary to character. But that just makes me more confused. If I plan a murder so that it will happen, but don't actually do it doesn't that still mean I'm a murderer?
(I don't want to blaspheme my Lord, I just don't understand).

I mean, God does a lot of amazing things for his glory's sake but do something against his glory and goodness?

F. Schaeffer says that man had free will in regards to the fall. He says this because Jesus was angry at death at Lazarus' tomb, and it would be a contradiction if the fall was 'his fault'. But God plans everything, right?

I seriously want to understand this people so please help!

thanks

anna_b

and welcome to the Discussion Board.

The question you ask is very common: "How could a just and Holy God foreordain/decree the Fall?" One could write volumes in answering that question but let me try and make it very brief and simple for you:

1) God has decreed ALL things without exception.
2) God decrees the means as well as the end of all things for His own Glory.
3) God decreed that Adam would transgress His explicit command and thus the Fall.
4) Adam did the transgressing and that freely and thus God is not culpable for Adam's sin.

This question is very similar to the broader one often asked, "How can a holy God decree and/or allow evil?" Again, the answer is a difficult one but only in its acceptance by the human mind which is by nature at enmity with God and His perfect ways. God rightly decrees and justly allows and uses evil for a higher good, yet He is not the Author of that sin. Sin originates with the creature and not the Creator even though God the Creator decrees that it should be. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

One could write volumes in answering that question

Do you know of any on the subject? I've started reading "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink, but am not sure if that answers the question in detail?

Adam did the transgressing and that freely and thus God is not culpable for Adam's sin.

That just brings me back to one of my original questions...God planned a sin, but because he didn't actually do it he is not culpable? (Obviously he is God anyway so can't be culpable , but...)

Again, the answer is a difficult one but only in its acceptance by the human mind which is by nature at enmity with God and His perfect ways.

I suppose one can't expect to understand God while one has a corrupted mind....One day I hope to!

And on another forum you said


anna3b
Perhaps you should visit more often, sound doctrine sometime foils the darts of the devil

Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

anna3b,

Basically, what you appear to be asking is for someone to help you understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Ya know.. I gotta tell you right up front . . . it ain't gonna happen. That's one of those "antinomy" thingys, i.e., the finite trying to comprehend the Infinite. The bottom line is simply this: is it taught in God's inspired written Word, i.e., that which He has deemed good to reveal to us though holy men moved by the Holy Spirit, that God is absolutely sovereign in both power and authority over all things which He has determined from eternity? YES!. Is it also taught that man is wholly responsible for every thought, word and deed? YES! Is it possible for any man to fully comprehend how these two indisputable truths coincide? NO! But our inability to comprehend the God of the universe does not negate the truth of these matters.

Deut 29:29 (ASV) "The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

Rom 11:33-36 (ASV) "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen."

We therefore humbly bow before the majesty and ineffable holiness of God and by faith entrust all our understanding to His Spirit Who was given to us that we may be led into all truth and forever rest in the confidence that we belong to Him in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In His grace,

Pilgrim, yes we'll understand one day in heaven by God's grace, but probably not in this world. Not that it WOULDN'T be nice to understand....but then again God has his reasons for witholding that knowledge too in this world!- probably something to do with trusting him. Not exactly good at that one.

William, thankyou for your helpful encouragment in the other post. I have limited internet access so can't really stick around. Maybe occassionally I will post, when and if I get time. The last few days have been abnormal for me, (in regards to access) so have been enabled to post. Thanks anyway everybody for your helpful responses, I will definitely pray for you and God bless! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I do believe we shall never comprehend such things. Even after receiving our new glorified bodies, being totally sanctified and possessing an incorruptible nature, we will still be finite created beings. If anyone or anything was able to comprehend the depths of God's being, they would of necessity have to be God. And amazingly there are 3 such persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The reality of God's transcendence shall never cease. And fortunately, neither shall His imminence ever cease. Thus, God will always and forever be "Other" but an "Other" Who has chosen to love a remnant of Adam's fallen race and draw close to them and be their heavenly Father for ever and for ever more. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

That is true Pilgrim, but is it not true that when we are absent from this body we will be with the Lord and as such we will be able to ask Him questions such as this?

Tom,

1. When a true Christian is absent from his body he is present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8)
2. You will NEVER know it ALL for you will NEVER be God.

Even in eternity you will not be able to question God to the point that you exhaust his knowledge, wisdom, and omniscience on a given subject. Omniscience is the capacity to know everything infinitely and you (me), are not infinite. Now are you going to attempt to pull the 1 Cor 13:12 defense out? As Hodge answers, "We may be perfect in our narrow sphere, as God is perfect in his; and yet the distance between him and us remain infinite."

EXACTLY God's transcendence will never be diminished. It is utterly impossible that a created being, even one that is wholly perfect, could comprehend God completely. Finite will always remain finite and the Infinite will always be infinite. This is one of the fundamental realities which moves us and shall always move us to worship God.

In His grace,

Joe

I did say that I agreed with Pilgrim, but I also believe that shouldn't stop us from asking.

Tom

Tom,

You and all us of will ask, or some kind of communication when we get to heaven. However, even when we ask and though we receive an answer we still will not know it all about any given issue. We will always be learning ...

The theological phrase for understanding this is to understand that knowledge is a "web of multiple reciprocities." An example of this is that you may ask a question on the Freedom of man vs. the Sovereignty of God. However, though you receive an answer, and a complete one for the level you are at the present time, it still will not exhaust God's knowledge and will you still not know it all, though the answer is from the very lips of God himself. See the "web of multiple reciprocities" means that ALL knowledge [without exception] is interconnected and thus to "totally" understand everything about our example "the Freedom of man vs. the Sovereignty of God" one would have to correspondingly understand its relationship to "everything else" [without exception]. Since, we are finite beings, we will never achieve this, however, we will be incorruptibly perfect and yet incorruptibly learning (somewhat as the original Adam was created to be, except unlike him we will not be able to sin).

So, though you may agree with Pilgrim and I, I just desired to clarify that even though one may ask a question and get a complete answer, it will only be as complete as your level of growth is at that time and there will always be more to learn about the question(s) you ask. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

Understood, I guess it would be kind of like if a three year old asking his mother how babies are made. If the mother gave a complete answer i.e. the biology of it (who would?), it would go right over the head of the son.
Of course this is only a human analogy, so I would imagine that in reality we might even be more clueless. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Oh but the joy we will have at just being in His presence. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Yo Pil,

wzhpn.

Is not part of the answer bound up in the imago Deo. That is Adam was created in the image of God and at least part of that image is as Elohim, governer(s). The governor is a responsibile party. In the WCF we are told that in touching upon the will God created many with that agency that is neither forced nor by nature determined to good or evil.

J.Edwards spoke of the immediated action of God such that all choices are created by God and governed such that man freely choices the choices that God has chosen for him to choose, but the "contigency of the second cause is upheld," in that it is in man that the choice is made?"

As to the "questions" that we may ask in the eternal estate:
doesn't the Scripture say that when he appears then we shall know even as we are known? I always took that to mean that any question outstanding would be resolved at his appearing. Also, that all thing that are in Christ have been given to us to freely know. So, putting the two together, will there be any questions?

Sorry, not sure about what you are trying to convey here? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> That God created man "imago dei", aka: in His own image is a sure thing. That Adam was given a mandate to govern (care) for the creation as he knew it before the Fall is also true. How that fits in with the issue of comprehending the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is where I seem to have a problem. Sorry, but in your last sentence I again find myself grasping at what you are trying to say. That God does not, indeed cannot force the will of a human being without transgressing the very nature of man is something I hold to be absolutely indisputable. However, the will (choices) of man are always determined by a predisposition to either good or evil. The "unknown" of this is in regard to that of Adam and Eve who doubtless were created with a predisposition to love God and do all that was good. How then they managed to do otherwise by transgressing the explicit prohibition of God is something no one can answer, at least this side of glory... and I believe perhaps never will. Fallen man, however, is totally predisposed to loving and doing evil, aka: corruption of nature, total depravity. Redeemed man is given a "new birth", i.e., regenerated whereby that holy disposition which was lost in the Fall is recreated in the soul yet the corrupt nature still exists albeit in part. And lastly, glorified man will not only have the original holy disposition brought to full fruition and the old nature totally eradicated, but that holy disposition will be unassailable; unlike the case with Adam and Eve.

And that is exactly the antinomy which we all wrestle with. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

The text(s) which you refer to and others of similar kind must be understood by the larger known truth, i.e., the chasm which exists between the Creator and the creature, aka: God's transcendence. Glorified man will be just that.. a man who has been brought to perfection but still as a finite created being. Man will know himself truly as God knows man truly, i.e., without deception, in part, etc. But man's knowledge, even of himself will never be exhaustive. God alone is Omniscient.

I have often wondered if those in glory will even have a desire to ask questions about those things which perplexed them while on earth. Such things may not even be of interest. Even what are now the essentials of life, e.g., the need to nourish our bodies with food, sleep to regain strength, etc., will be no more. Perhaps the saints will be in a perpetual state of "awe" and thus have no need or desire to question God about what might be nothing but trivial matters. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,