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#36189 Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:57 PM
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In 1976 I ascended the three steps into the Assemblies of God Church in Harfield Road and for nearly five years absorbed with my 'fragile egg shell mind' every word that was uttered by those who gave instruction. Though I had no idea at the time what the core beliefs of the Assembly of God were, or for that matter any details about Theology. But I was brand new, fresh as a flower, and within five years I had become a very, very unhappy little tulip.

Why? Well, unbeknown to me I had walked straight into a field full of daisies. Well, I was only eighteen and naieve as any young person.

What always frustrated me what the heavy emphasis on works. I just wrote it off as zeal or enthusiasm, but that was until a few minutes ago, when I decided to have a look see what the Assemblies of God teaches on the matter of eternal security in the 21st Century.

I sat their shocked as I read through their teaching. I had always been so proud of my roots and that I had been taught so well, etc..etc..etc. Perhaps there had been some teachers that were not as heavy, but the undercurrent was always heavy. Now I sit here feeling like someone just pounded my head in with a very heavy malet.

Ouch! I am actually dazed. I read the arguments and to be absolutely honest I have read rebuttals on every single position presented and well just to think I was going to take a journey up to the nearby village to attend a service where a friend of mine is going. She most certainly will not last too long there when she reads this. I am nodding my head. Well over to y'all...anyone have any thoughts about this ? Is Calminian Theology a legitimate position or is there something desperately wrong here ?

Quote
Arminianism teaches something different on each of these points: (1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God. (2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God’s salvation makes them responsible. (3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation (4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian. (5) One’s salvation can be lost through willful disobedience. Rather than the unconditional predestination of Calvinism, Arminianism teaches conditional predestination. We are predestined to eternal life if we accept God’s provision of salvation.

The Assemblies of God leans toward Arminianism, though it accepts scriptural truth found in both positions. We agree with the Calvinist emphasis on God's sovereignty or supreme power and authority. But we also firmly believe the Arminian emphasis on mankind's free will and responsibility for his actions and choices. We believe the Bible teaches both truths.
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/gendoct_09_security.cfm

(A more detailed description of 'Security of the Believer'
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4178_security.cfm

My head feels like this...

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by straw; Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:59 PM.
straw #36190 Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:18 PM
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According to my former AoG pastor, the denomination is solidly Arminian in theology but "appreciates" the Reformation "emphasis on God's sovereignty. No Calvinist would have been accepted as a church officer in any AoG church he knows of anywhere.

Like most of the Pentecostal denominations, the AoG has deep roots in the "Holiness movement" that preceded Azusa and adopted the Pentecostal experience as "evidence" of superior personal obedience.

-Robin

Robin #36191 Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:02 PM
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Thanks Robin. What you are saying is not new to me, but what is new to me is that the AOG teaches that one can lose one's salvation.

I must say I am not ignorant of the over emphasis on reaching a state where one can no longer sin, sort of a second blessing that renders one holy forever etc. The mixing of Calvinism with Arminianism and arriving at a conclusion that one can therefore lose ones salvation reminds me of what I heard when I was going to Calvary Chapel quite regularly. I am not saying every Pastor teaches that but the whole idea of 'free will' and 'predestination' and the Sovereignity of God is so mixed up that I think they just panic in trying to reconcile what is written in James and Hebrews and the teachings of Jesus and just start staying stuff like, 'we don't really accept the idea of being once saved always saved' and therefore someone can lose their salvation.

I have checked every verse they use to support this theory and only find them doing really poor observations and in the end I just wonder about the general theological position. I could never deny that there was a deep genuiness and a deep love for Jesus, but this whole thing really leaves a foul stink in my nostrils. It is small wonder that I was on a roller coaster ride, one minute sure, the next minute unsure.

I sorted that out, but it seems that they have gone deeper and deeper into this and are now in the 21st century admitting they are leaning towards Arminianism....(shock!)
I am genuinely in shock at the moment, sort of like child discovering his parents were not really his parents at all.

Well I am going to let go of this chapter, but I cannot let go of the genuine spirit of worship and prayer that I witnessed. There was little showmanship allowed in the church I went to. No Benny Hinn type antics, though I admit some embarrassing moments, but essentially a geniune love for Christ and a desire to walk worthy of the calling.

I grieve some for the ones who tried so hard to follow all the little laws and only found themselves laden down with burdens they were never meant to bare.

Let us therefore not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage, for Christ has set us FREE.

straw #36192 Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:21 PM
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The Assemblies of God leans toward Arminianism, though it accepts scriptural truth found in both positions. We agree with the Calvinist emphasis on God's sovereignty or supreme power and authority.
This is a very common statement held by many today. But it is woefully illogical since the two systems are antithetical to each other. The law of non-contradiction sums it up well, "Two things cannot be and not be at the same time."


(1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God.


They define sinner as one that is contrary to the biblical record which clearly teaches that all men are born spiritually "dead". Dead people don't respond to any type of calling. Unless one is made alive by the sovereign working of the Holy Spirit (aka: regeneration, born anew, born again, born from above, resurrected, et al) the only response a sinner is capable of is hatred toward God and all that is good. A man will always choose that which is most important to him in any given circumstance. Since all men are born dead (cf. Gen 2:16, 17; Rom 5:12; 1Cor 15:21; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13) they are incapable of even desiring God. (cf. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Eccl 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mk 7:21-23; Jh 3:19; 8:44; Rom 3:10-18; 8:7, 8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 4:17-19; Titus 1:15) Man's corrupt/depraved nature controls the will and thus they are incapable of seeing, hearing or moving upon the things of God, particularly the necessity to repent and believe upon Christ. (cf. Job 14:4; Matt 7:16-18; Jh 6:44; 6:65; Rom 11:35, 36; 1Cor 4:7; IICor 3:5. This helpless condition does not relieve any man from responsibility. Just because one cannot does not mean that they must not. The condition which all men are conceived in; sin is of their own doing since they share in the guilt and depravity of Adam, aka: Original Sin.


(2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God’s salvation makes them responsible.


God's decree (decision) to save some and condemn the rest of mankind is done in eternity. One may choose to call God's decision(s) "arbitrary", but all that God has foreordained was based upon reasons within Himself and without any consideration of the objects themselves. And how else could this be since all things come to pass according to His eternal and sovereign will. (cf. Is 43:7, 12, 13; 46:9, 10; 55:11; Psa 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; 9:11-29; ; Eph 1:9-11)


(4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian.


Agreed. Almighty God does not force anyone to come to Christ. All who do come do so most willingly BECAUSE God first recreates the will, thus setting them free from the bondage of sin to which they were slaves. A new disposition (nature) is created in the soul in regeneration thus making a sinner capable of coming to Christ. And this new disposition is predisposed toward God and holiness and thus the will naturally chooses the things of God just as naturally as the unregenerate soul chooses only evil. (cf. Psa 51:5; 110:3; Jer 7:19; 17:9; Ezek 37:1-14; Jh 1:12, 13; 5:40; Acts 11:18; 16:14; 13:48; Eph 2:1-10; 2Tim 2:25)


(5) One’s salvation can be lost through willful disobedience.


If salvation is of the Lord; a salvation of sovereign grace and not of works, then it is impossible for one whom God has predestined to salvation in Christ to be lost. For the Lord not only provides the salvation in Christ but the means to that end which is eternal life. (cf. Rom 9:29, 30) The redemption merited by Christ was a full satisfaction and thus all who are united to Him are eternally secure. (cf. Jer 32:40; Matt 18:12-14; Jh 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:37-40; 17:1, 2, 11-13, 20-23; Rom 5:1, 8-10, 16-21; 8:1, 35-39; 1Cor 1:7-9; IICor 4:14, 17; Gal 3:13; Eph 1:5, 13, 14; 4:30; Col 3:3, 4; 1Thess 5:23, 24; Heb 8:12, 15; 10:14; 1Pet 1:3-5; 1Jh 2:19, 25; 5:4, 11-13, 20; Jude 1, 24, 25.)

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim #36193 Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:26 AM
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Dear Pilgrim,

Words really do not adequately express my deep gratefulness for the way you replied to my anxious cry. Infact the details of your reply to point (1) answered my first question on this forum and (2) in regard to the work I am currently doing (a 4-5 year reseach project). (4) Was particulary valuable - I am indebted friend. (5) Clearly the passages that so many struggle with in Hebrews take a little more effort than I think the AOG head honcho's are willing to explore, just incase they find themselves making a 180% change (did I infer repentance).

The free will message of this position paper pp 4178 really creeped me out. My memories of the many sermons that were filled with the glaring errors that I in my innocence received with an open heart, ache me some. I am glad to finally be set free of this, but I ache some because to the grave error that has been perpetrated against many young people like myself who came out of the hippies and had this message of bondage pounded into our skulls. Two sisters committed suicide from guilt associated by not meeting up to the exacting standards of this organization that I can see clearly now does not have much mercy to release to it's devotees. Oh how I ache.

Seeing as you are probably aware that I flatly reject there point (3) no more is left to be said than that I spent my first years as a believer in Christ in the belly of a whale. Well, I guess I should not think that strange, for we are to enter into the grace by which we stand through many difficulties. I am sure I would not be the sort of man I am to day had my life been a bed of thornless roses.

In His grace,

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Recommended reading from a former AoGer: The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther.

Robin #36195 Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:51 AM
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Robin,

I read the last chapter of the book. 'The Doctrine of the Bondage of the Will' when I first got this book as a present from my dear wife. (Though I am most familiar with his excellent work on the topic.)

Long, long before I even knew who Martin Luther really was, or even so much as knew of his huge contribution to the Reformation. Long, long before I really knew who John Calvin was and the gigantic contribution he brought to bear against the Apostate Church of Rome. Long, long before I read about Huss and the firm stand he took against the heretical doctrines of the Apostate Church, I read the writings of the Apostle Paul and coupled with a simple breakdown of the TULIP handed to me by a kind friend in the early eighties, I was able to come to a deeper understanding of the true nature of salvation and how it was accomplished, and most important 'eternal security of the believer' (the main thrust of this thread.)

We had moved to another town and we were miles from the AOG. We did attend eventually but due to their involvement in the 'Discipleship' programme (so like the SS) we were forced to leave, hardly, we were told if we did not like it we could leave. Go to the little +++ Presbyterian Church down the road.

At this time I crafted a song titled 'Safe and Secure' all about the joy of 'eternal preservation of the saints'.

Up until last night I had no idea that the Assemblies of God taught that they leaned towards Arminianism. (certainly NOT in black and white) It was only out of pure curiosity that I decided to dial up their website and as I went through the 'position papers' I discovered this terrible heresy. I could have only been alerted to this if I had actually studied it in greater detail, which I have done. Oh some four or five years ago, when I first went to a meeting at Calvary Chapel. I have a very thick envelope filled to the brim with both sides of the argument. Calvinism vs Arminianism. If you like I can get it out and send you all the links to the various articles ? I am not entirely sure but I think I wrote something about this.

This is what is on the outside of the envelope.

1. Synod of Dort.
2. Veritas Redux
3. Letter to Ray! (refer the extract)
4. Biblical Critique of Chuck Smith's study in Calvinism
5. Free Agency and the Will by Dr. DL Boettner
6. Five Points of Calvinism by RL Dabney
7. Total Inability by Lorraine Boettner
8. Particular Redemption by CH Spurgeon
9. Salvation is of the Lord by CH Spurgeon
10. Effacious Grace by Lorraine Boettner.

<><
Extract from my letter to Ray.

I said:
'So far we have not been for two whole Sundays, and life at home is back to it's happy routine.....I cannot tolerate falsity having always sought to be real in my music composing, it affects every aspect of my life. I will still maintain the same stance of getting the Pastor at Calvary Chapel to read the article on 'Hellfire' (that is what I called my second book - retitled to be 'It Is Written' - an expose of the JW doctrine of annhilationism - exposed so brilliantly in Pink's work - 'Eternal Punishment')...he is going to freak out, because they reject two major tennets of Calvinsm...namely...Unconditional Election adn Irristible Grace....

He replied:
'and also 'limited atonement' .. just about every Christian Church nowdays rejects that idea. But the alternative ..."universal atonement" is really a Catholic idea.... that Christ died to "open the doors of heaven' for everyone...and now they just have to follow Mother Church and store up enough merits to do what apparently Christ could not do by Himself. However, in Protestant churches this idea is altered slightly....Christ died to open heaven's doors and so all you gotta do is accept him. So then did Christ pay a full penatly for sins for His people or did he not ? If it was a full penalty and it was truly for 'everyone', then their sin debt is paid in full, even the sin of not accepting Christ, so hell will be empty and heaven completely full.

I then replied...

if one looks at the study on 'The Afterlife' bang..the whole issue of the WILL and salvation...explosions of Doctrinal Madness..oh, well I am going to have to be very gentle and keep focussed on Jesus every moment.

He finally replied:
You've got the right idea there...be very meek and humble as you bring things to people's attention....

<><

Wise words from Ray and exactly how I am going to proceed in minsitering to my sister who is already part of the AOG choir (ouch!). Please pray that the Lord will grant me wisdom as I share with her this erroneous doctrine which rejects, 'the eternal preservation of the saints'

In His service and worship.

ps. (add)
+++ actually I looked it up and the church referred to was probably St Mark's Methodist Church in Edgmead. -> http://www.stmarks.co.za/contact.htm
(They give the Alpha Course and something I have not heard of before called 'Walk to Emmaus' - I wonder if this is associated with the emergent stuff... from the introduction : 'The course is wrapped in prayer and meditation, special times of worship and daily celebration of Holy Communion.' --- I wonder what they mean by giving three seperate ideas...'prayer' 'meditation' 'worship' -- it is interesting how Hinduism has been manfesting it's influence. I guess it has been going on a lot longer than just recently. After the yoga pose and encouragement to meditate at my sons youth fellowship meeting, I reckon anything is possible and it is not just in the Charismatic Churches, but even in the very conservative ones...where have I been.)

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straw said:
We had moved to another town and we were miles from the AOG. We did attend eventually but due to their involvement in the 'Discipleship' programme (so like the SS) we were forced to leave, hardly, we were told if we did not like it we could leave.

I've seen many ex-Charismatics/Pentacostals "scattered" into other cults or back into a very worldly lifestyle. It seems to me that only a few "hard core", stay for any length of time. Even in the RCC, countless numbers stay but only nominally so, and this because of pressure from other family members and/or a false comfort and security in "tradition". This, rather than a reverence for, and study of God's words in Scripture.

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The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them.

So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered. [Ezekiel 34:4,5 NKJV]

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
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Denny,

This organization physically swallowed many who started out being geninuinely zealous for the things of God but eventually became loaded down with the pressure to be 'more committed', 'more holy' etc. The fact that they have openly declared in black and white that they are leaned towards the teachings of Arminianism and specifically the matter which has distressed me most for I can now understand that it directly impacted on the lives of many who came open hearted in a desire to learn the great truths of the Bible only to be told that they could lose their salvation. Not only did two sisters commit suicide as a result of the immense pressure to live no different to those poor souls who fall prey to cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses (never certain if they have done enough.) I have listened to countless testimonies of JW's who finally found freedom in Christ, the tragedy is that the suicide rate is very high in cults, and this huge organization the AOG is beyond cult status into a false religion. The emphasis on having to always measure up, achieve, succeed, be the best etc, be supra-holy is what crushed me. I just was never that good, I was rejected for being a bad risk. Well thank God for that, it gave me time on the outside to study God's Word without all the theological books and helps etc, that so many put their faith in. In this place I was able to read the TULIP and the 5 Solas, and well you do the math. It is just this was a pretty gigantic eye opener, and really has brought the dire situation the Church is in far closer to home than it has every been. Just what is a Christian to do now ? I am not one who just sits by and says nothing. Oh those rotten no good decieving false teachers, let them burn in hell. No way, they are decieved by the old strawman Jacobus Arminius and that should not be to difficult to undo. I mean I am not genuis but I think that if some really bright theologians put their heads together and gave a paper in reply to the propositional paper, well I am sure many like my sister would leave immediately. I did and that was some years ago, and just to think that a few days ago I was considering going back until I read this diabolical declaration. I am still shocked, I hope you are?

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I mean I am not genuis but I think that if some really bright theologians put their heads together and gave a paper in reply to the propositional paper, well I am sure many like my sister would leave immediately. I did and that was some years ago, and just to think that a few days ago I was considering going back until I read this diabolical declaration. I am still shocked, I hope you are?

Yes I am "shocked" but not surprised. I am always shocked when I see what happens when men with their depraved anthropocentric "free will" view, attempt to force their heresies upon the Scripture. Calvin had a rather scathing comment about this:

Quote
Many inquire, not to know the truth, but to get answers to their liking. And our Lord, in order to punish them for their hypocrisy, lets them find what they are seeking. [from A Short Treatise, 1543]

This is why I consider the Charismatic/Pentacostal to be "double chained". Not only is he imprisoned by unbelief in general and with which he was born, but also chained to his prison cell wall by the demonic Arminian heresy. It is a testimony to the power of God's words and Grace that some ever escape at all, and this includes myself.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
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Denny,

Clearly 'many' in Calvin's quote would relate to 'the many are called but few are chosen' in Matthew 20 & 22. The phrase you use 'depraved anthropocentric "free will" certainly brings to mind 'And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;' in Romans 1 and 'Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.' in 2 Timothy 3.

It is not only C/P who are double chained; all who are outside of Christ are chained this way. I found this quote by Philo to be worthy of consideration in the Commentary by John Gill relating to 1 John 3:12 - 'Philo the Jew says , 'that in the contention or dispute between Cain and Abel, Abel attributed all things to God, and Cain ascribed everything to himself; so that the controversy was about grace and works, as now; and as then Cain hated his brother upon this account, so now carnal men hate and persecute the saints, because they will not allow their works to be the cause of justification and salvation: and from hence also it may be observed, that a work may be, as to the matter of it, good, and yet as to its circumstances, and the end and view of it, evil.' [Quod Det. Potior. p. 161.]

After a betrayal of trust, I believe it is important to move, with God's help, to a place where one no longer strives but is gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient. In meekness instructing those that opposse themselves; if GOD peradventure, will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.'

Reading through Romans 1, I used to think 'Ah...them evil doers' until I turned to Romans 2:1 and quickly recanted from my Romanish heresy. Jesus divided men into two very distinct catergories when he said : 'I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.' (Matthew 18)

Children are very trusting, and so was I when I joined the AOG in 1976. I had never been a part of any church, except for a Presbyterian sprinkle baptism at four months of age. So when at 18, I climbed those steps to get my first dose of CHURCH, I naievely believed these to be the most trustworthy humans on the planet. What was I to know ? I never knew that God's people, had business meetings, Catechisms, Creeds, and discussions about which doctrines were true and which were false. Yet, every single church or denomination or religion has a lot going on under that lake that I imagined to be tranquill. In fact I found the lake to be far from tranquill and beneath the surface even in the early days I began to find some gigantic inconsistencies from what I was learning. Of course I just buried my thoughts down DEEP inside, and just submitted to the leaders, and bit by bit the freedom that I had been allowed when I first arrived. You know how cute one is with a new believer. Oh how sweet, shame how cute...and all those baby sounds...goo goo ... ga, ga... etc ? Then the rules get brought into play and before you know it you are just like everyone else 'penguins in bondage' ... and the indoctrination begins. It is the same in every single Church. Indoctrination is the bag. Force the little guy to eat something, take him off the bottle, and before you know it the nipple of contentment has been replaced by the doctrines of man, as they have assembled from the writings of the sages and heroes of the particular denomination, attatched to certain verses, which over time disappear and no longer is a Bible Study a Bible Study it is more like the Churches agenda for the community or whatever new course, be it Shepherd Movement, Discipleship, CGM, Alpha. You go from learning from His Word to learning from the head honcho's. As you said, either you are hard and remain and I add, or you are soft and crumble, or you get wise and GET OUT!

Not everyone wants to go back and rescue the friends who are as you say, 'chained' and it is probably wise to stay out and get into the Scriptures. I have not always found that it is wise to take the errors and correct them, for one will find that most errors are compounded on others and the whole batch is 'leaven'. Jesus said, 'BEWARE' So I guess one might do a Luther and with hammer and nail bang it on the door, or just send a letter. Then leave and do not go back. I prefer to just say you say and be on your way.

I live in Africa, and to be more accurate Southern Africa, and in particular the Cape Province in a place called Simonstown, though I do live quite a ways away from the town and I have yet to find a church that does not have something wrong with the doctrinal statement. Especially on this matter of "free will".

However, the reason I strung this thread was not to explore Martin Luther's book on 'The Bondage of the Will' but to simply explore one erroneous doctrine that seems to be a product of a theological position I heard described once by the head of an ex-pagan site, where I was banned for not accepting their Calminian Theology. I eventually recieved a barrage of email from the head of the site, rebuking me for holding to the teachings of John Calvin and in particular that I believed in 'the eternal preservation of the saints'

I rememeber always being most puzzled to be told firstly that you are saved by grace through faith...(you know the passage) and then be told that if I do not remain faithful I could lose my salvation. Being young and foolish and not know the rules of engagement, namely the law of contradition, or as some call it the law of non-contradiction I guess I was fairgame for most every would-be wanna be self proclaimed teacher of truth. I had the old youthful sponge like mind and so everything went in.

I guess learning the doctrines of grace in the early eighties though in a very primitive form, helped me to take apart 'The Four Spiritual Laws'. It was such a joy when I could, but I realized this was only one step in the right direction, now I needed to make sure that I really knew exactly what the Gospel is. It is one thing to know what it is not, but to know the Gospel is a whole different process and requires much study of the Scriptures, which is exactly where I am when I am not here making an entry and this is certainly going to be my last on this thread.

Thanks for all the contributions. If you still want to add some stuff about 'THE ETERNAL PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS' I would greatly, greatly appreciate it.

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Not everyone wants to go back and rescue the friends who are as you say, 'chained' and it is probably wise to stay out and get into the Scriptures. I have not always found that it is wise to take the errors and correct them, for one will find that most errors are compounded on others and the whole batch is 'leaven'. Jesus said, 'BEWARE' So I guess one might do a Luther and with hammer and nail bang it on the door, or just send a letter. Then leave and do not go back.

Going back to "rescue" friends from our old churches is almost never a good idea - especially if their church is a true Christian church, albeit errant in doctrine. People will leave such churches on their own when the time is right, just as you and countless others have done.

It's hard to convince P/C folk that these things really matter. I went to my former pastor on many an occasion to ask about this or that doctrine of Scripture, and every time he would rebuke me with words like this:

"Oh, doctrine doctrine doctrine! Can't you just love the Lord? You are too concerned with matters of theology. It isn't all black and white and laid out in perfect order for us to understand. Put your Bible away for awhile and learn to just love the Lord."

The study of theology flows from the love of God. It is the law of God that tells us how to love Him. The law of God is an elucidation of the demands of love. The one who loves Him is the one who keeps His commandments (John 14:21), not the one who loudly proclaims his feelings of fondness while ignoring the Lord's written will. One cannot love God without learning of Him, becoming His disciple, studying to show himself approved, and learning the Lord's will in order to do it.

To the question, "Can't you just love the Lord" we must answer, "it is my love for Him that drives me to learn of Him - I must know what pleases Him, what attributes to praise, what deeds to extol, what to thank Him for, what He desires from me, etc. I cannot truly love my Lord without doctrine!"

Those even in errant churches who truly love Him will discover the same thing, and will find doctrine in their own personal study, in books, etc on their own. Their doctrinal discovery should drive them to confront errors that magnify man and belittle God, and they will find themselves - as you and I have - seeking a church grounded in the Scriptures, rightly interpreted.

While that search is still underway, keep the Highway in mind as a safe place to turn to for support. And remember too, there is much more to the Highway than just these message boards! The library here is vast and checkout is free.

-Robin

Robin #36201 Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:52 AM
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Robin, my name is 'Eric'

2 Thess. 2 is a very relevant passage of Scripture in respect to this thread. Especially, phrases like 'falling away','strong delusion' etc. As well as Matthew 24:24's 'if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.' Taking away hope from believers by removing 'the eternal preservation of the saints' from doctrine, removes hope. Of course Hebrews 6:4-6 is the one that demands a severe study in Greek, if one is to continue believing in 'the eternal preservation of the saints' or else we shall be all at the steps of the AOG for the next Bible Study in Calminian Theology.

straw #36202 Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:47 PM
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straw said:
It is not only C/P who are double chained; all who are outside of Christ are chained this way. I found this quote by Philo to be worthy of consideration in the Commentary by John Gill relating to 1 John 3:12 - 'Philo the Jew says , 'that in the contention or dispute between Cain and Abel, Abel attributed all things to God, and Cain ascribed everything to himself; so that the controversy was about grace and works, as now; and as then Cain hated his brother upon this account, so now carnal men hate and persecute the saints, because they will not allow their works to be the cause of justification and salvation: and from hence also it may be observed, that a work may be, as to the matter of it, good, and yet as to its circumstances, and the end and view of it, evil.' [Quod Det. Potior. p. 161.]
Eric,

Just a side note on Philo's understanding of what took place in Gen. 4:3ff. It was clearly not that Cain attributed all things to himself and Abel to God, but rather it was a repetition of what the Father of lies used to deceive Eve and she then perpetrated on Adam. The issue was the law of God and man's obedience of it. Although it is implied in the text, it is nevertheless carved in stone (pun intended) that Abel offered unto the Lord a sacrifice of worship in accord with a command of God and Cain chose to offer what he thought was acceptable. The consequences of their respective choices is well known; Abel's sacrifice, a slain animal (shedding of blood) was received and Cain's offering of the fruit of the ground was rejected. There is obviously much more to be learned from these two offerings which impact not only simply obedience but also worship, justification, et al.

The main reason for my bringing this up is because such errors in biblical interpretation often snowball and lead to many other errors.

In His grace,


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Robin #36203 Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:04 PM
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Robin said:
The study of theology flows from the love of God. It is the law of God that tells us how to love Him. The law of God is an elucidation of the demands of love. The one who loves Him is the one who keeps His commandments (John 14:21), not the one who loudly proclaims his feelings of fondness while ignoring the Lord's written will. One cannot love God without learning of Him, becoming His disciple, studying to show himself approved, and learning the Lord's will in order to do it.

To the question, "Can't you just love the Lord" we must answer, "it is my love for Him that drives me to learn of Him - I must know what pleases Him, what attributes to praise, what deeds to extol, what to thank Him for, what He desires from me, etc. I cannot truly love my Lord without doctrine!"
Robin,

Methinks that the necessity of studying theology (the application of the Bible to all of life) precedes knowing the correct, acceptable way of loving God in that one must first know who is the one true God. And only in the study of Scripture which results in "doctrine" can one come to know, at least intellectually, who God is and what He requires of us in order to love him in the "obedience of faith". When someone like your former pastor exclaims we should "just love God", it begs the question, "What God?". The same can be said for the similarly errant statement, "No creed but Christ. No doctrine but life." One needs to first ask, "Jesus, who?". You cannot love someone who you do not know. Rarely would someone entrust to a stranger all their earthly goods. And how much less would someone entrust their eternal destiny to something or someone they had no knowledge about?

It is ONLY in the inspired written Word of God that we learn about God. And it is the Author of that written Word, the Holy Spirit, Who opens one's mind and heart to apprehend its teachings (doctrine) and then applies them so that one comes to know and then love God with all their "mind, heart, soul, and strength". For me, this is beautifully summarized in Paul's prayer to the Colossians:

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Colossians 1:9-10 (ASV) "For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray and make request for you, that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;"
And to the Corinthians, Paul wrote:

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2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (ASV) "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds), casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;"
EVERYONE adheres to a creed.... whether its source is the Bible, some other book, the teachings of other men or their own imagination. As soon as it is said, "I believe . . ." what follows is an exclamation of one's personal "doctrine".

In His grace,


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