The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Clarification and explanation needed.

1 Titus 1:12,13-- "All Cretans are always liars....this testimony is certainly true."

How does one handle this verse without saying that was then, this is now? If it's Scripture, isn't it supposed to be an eternal truth? I mean, if someone says, women should be allowed some authority, and you say it nay on the basis of Scripture, what's to keep them from saying, "you probably think Cretans are liars, too, eh?"

If it says "ALL Cretans are ALWAYS liars", and then Paul says by the inspiration and direction of the Spirit which gives us the Scriptures for all time "this is most certainly true", then how do we argue that this is no longer true? Isn't that like arguing that women no longer should cover their heads in worship, even though the Scriptures says we should do so "because of the angels"? How have circumstances changed? :help

The only possible way I can think of out of this dilemma is to say, "Paul was right. And he didn't go far enough, because I'm just as bad and so are you."

1) It must be noted that the saying came by way of one of their own prophets, which is often attributed to Epimenedes. Paul simply agreed with the assessment.

2) Therefore, not ALL inclusively, who lived on Crete were liars in everything they said else the pejorative description would also have been false. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3) Although during Paul's time and sometime thereafter the caricature of Cretans being habitual liars continued and it seems from extra-biblical writings that this lying continued among them, the passage should not be taken as universally applicable without end.

4) Hendriksen sums up Paul's indictment against the Cretans as follows:

In His grace,

So, what you are saying then, (?) is that since Cretans were notorious for lying, that even those who did not lie so much, must have been considered liars. Cretans were not ever to be trusted to tell the truth. Is that a fair assessment?

On the head covering issue, I would love to see something about that. I think I understand what the original question was concerning. That many times the culture is different so we have put aside some traditions like head covering and women not speaking in church etc.

I visited a church recently with a friend of mine. It was a charismatic church (*gasp* lol). I am so glad for all of the teaching I've gotten from this site and my own reading. I was so uncomfortable. I actually witnessed women speaking out in church! They were constantly commenting and throwing out little comments they thought were funny. That particular verse came alive to me (the one about women not speaking in church). Also, the pastor is so effeminate that one would think he were a homosexual if they did not know he was a pastor. It was so difficult to watch him and not be on the brink of being offended. It was interesting to say the very least.

Michele

Well, sorta. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> Cretans were known to be habitual liars among themselves to which Paul agreed. This does not mean that everyone lied to the same degree and thus it is not to be construed that everything Cretans said or wrote was a lie. Of course we know that ALL men are liars from birth (cf. Psa 58:3; Rom 3:13) but it seems that the Cretans excelled at it.

See here: Head Coverings and Decorum in Worship.

In His grace,