The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Why people think TBN preacher , another gospel?

You're welcome.

As a Christian, it is my hope that someday people like this will pay back every nickle of what they have stolen with their fraudulent and papist "gospel". It might be more than fair for them to pay it back at $8.00 an hour (plus interest), washing windows, picking fruit or cleaning houses just like those from whom it was taken.

Before anyone accuses me of being judgmental, let it be said that I believe this is exactly the kind of reparations that our just God will someday demand of those who do not believe nor find shelter in His true gospel.


Denny

Romans 3:22-24

But, but, but hey you guys, don't you know that Jesus and the disciples were rich and God wants all his children to be rich too?

"Jesus had a nice house, a big house--big enough to have company stay the night with Him at the house. Let me show you His house. Go over to John the first chapter and I'II show you His house....Now, child of God, that's a house big enough to have company stay the night in. There's His house." (John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory," TBN, January 20, 1991)

"Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief. Now you can't tell me that a ministry with a treasurer that's a thief can operate on a few pennies. It took big money to operate that ministry because Judas was stealing out of that bag." (John Avanzini, "Praise the Lord," TBN, September 15, 1988)

"John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes. Well, what else you gonna call it? Designer clothes--that's blasphemy. No, that's what we call them today. I mean, you didn't get the stuff He wore off the rack. It wasn't a one-size-fits-all deal. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of a garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment." (John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory," TBN, January 20, 1991)

"The Bible says that He [Jesus] had a treasurer--a treasury (they called it "the bag"); that they had one man who was the treasurer, named Judas Iscariot; and the rascal was stealing out of the bag for three-and-a-half years and nobody knew that he was stealing. You know why? Because there was so much in it, He couldn't tell. Nobody could tell that anything was missing. If He had three oranges in the bottom of the bag and he stole two of them, don't tell me He wouldn't know that some was missing. Beside that, if Jesus didn't have anything, what do you need a treasury for? A treasury is for surplus. It's not for that which you're spending. It's only for surplus--to hold it until you need to spend it. Therefore, He must have had a whole lot that needed to be held in advance that He wasn't spending. So He must have had more than He was living on." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 23, 1990)

"Jesus and the disciples were rich, only rich people could take off for three and a half years." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 23, 1990)



"The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see - to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you - thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, December 9, 1990)

"God has displeasure in poverty." (Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith," TBN, November 16, 1990)

"The man who holds to poverty rejects the establishment of the covenant. The man who holds to the covenant rejects poverty. Faith in the covenant pleases God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him." (Gloria Copeland, God's Will is Prosperity

"MONEY come unto me NOW, MONEY come unto me NOW, MONEY come unto me NOW!" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believers Voice of Victory," TBN, December 4, 1999)

"Being poor is a sin." (Robert Tilton, "Success in Life," TBN, December 2, 1990)

"The only time people were poor in the Bible is when they were under a curse." (Robert Tilton, "Success in Life," TBN, December 2 1990)

“What’s the big deal, for goodness sake? What am I supposed to do, drive a Honda?...That’s not in the Bible...I’m sick and tired about hearing about streets of gold {in heaven}. I don’t need gold in heaven. I got to have it now.” (Benny Hinn, interview with Mike Thomas from The Berean Call, January 1992.

Brad

It was taken from Hank Hannegraff's tape series called 'Christianity in Crisis'.
I am almost positive that it was Copeland, but will apologize if it wasn't.

The quotes you just made are very similar to it.

Tom

Tom,

I have the book Christianity in Crisis on which the tapes are based. It's the first book I recommend for anyone who has questions about this movement. The audio's great because you get to hear many of these horrifying quotes by the speakers themselves. I'll look again to see if I can find the quote by Copeland. It's easier (for most people anyway) to remember a voice than a citation or a footnote, so you're probably right. I just like to have the documentation because that's the first thing people who support these "ministries" ask: "Where did you hear (or read) that?" "I think you're quoting out of context," "I just can't believe Benny Hinn (or Copeland, or Crouch, etc.) would actually say that," "I've never heard them preach about that," etc., etc. Of course, even when you provide chapter and verse many still prefer to ignore it and continue writing out their checks and talking to their wallets.

It is pretty hard to make an exact quote when you are relying on memory, especially when the tapes are not readily available. The tapes belong to someone else.

But I agree with you that it is good to have documentation, which is why I showed the source I was using.
Let me know if it wasn’t Copeland.

Tom

THE TRINITY BROADCAST PLAN OF SALVATION HERE
I think they could fit into this category. The first line of the “Conclusion” to the Canons of Dordt reads



<font size="3">“And this is the perspicuous, simple, and ingenuous declaration of the orthodox doctrine respecting the five articles….” </font>

[color:"0000FF"]Of Divine Predestination
Of the Death of Christ, and the Redemption of Men Thereby
Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof.
Of the Perseverance of the Saints[/color]

PERSPIC'UOUS, a. Clear to the understanding; that may be clearly understood; not obscure or ambiguous. Language is perspicuous when it readily presents to the reader or hearer the precise ideas which are intended to be expressed. Meaning, sense or signification if perspicuous, when it is clearly and easily comprehended.





A COMPARISON OF CALVINISM vs. ARMINIANISM HERE






<font size="3">“Moreover,[color:"0000FF"]the Synod warns calumniators themselves to consider the terrible judgment of God which awaits them [/color]for bearing false witness against the confessions of so many churches, for distressing the consciences of the weak, and for laboring to render suspected the society of the truly faithful.”</font>

CALUMNIATOR, n. One who slanders; one who falsely and knowingly accuses another of a crime or offense, or maliciously propagates false accusations or reports.



William

Greetings!

So far in this thread, many folks have offered substantial Biblical reasons for why most of the teachers on TBN, especially the health-and-wealth preachers, ought to be condemned as false teachers. Anyone who properly studies the Scriptures cannot help but come to this conclusion.

So how do so many people become convinced that these teachers somehow speak for God? As a former fan of at least one health-and-wealth preacher of earlier years, here's a few reasons that come to mind:

1. Such preachers often quote large chunks of Scripture that seemingly backs up their claims. However, much of this quoting takes the form of prooftexting: "See, the same thing happened here in the Gospels or Acts that I say takes place today in our services." Obviously, proper Biblical interpretation needs to go way beyond "it happened once before, and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so it must be so." Peter walked on the water at Jesus' encouragement, but I doubt that any charismatic teachers encourage their followers to emulate his example lest they get their pants sued off them.

2. Oftentimes, people who take an interest in TBN-style teaching have dramatic personal experiences that seem to back up what Brother So-and-So is teaching. "Wow, Brother X said this, and it's happened to me just as he said, so he must be speaking for God!" Sadly, charismatic history is littered with souls who, having had one or two wonderful experiences, came up empty and discouraged in the end with nothing to show for the dream, vision, or prophecy that promised such great things. To be sure, such experiences can be extremely compelling to the novice who doesn't realize that they are nothing better than the bait on a hook that Satan intends to use to draw them away from Christ. Remember two things: (1) psychics, mediums, etc., are as often involved in "true" experiences or predictions as are charismatic Christians, and (2) when Scripture tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light, it's saying that he can often come across in a way that seems just like a visitation from God...except that the experience he provides leads us away from Christ and the Scriptures in the long run.

3. Charismatic teaching can, in the short run, produce a sense of peace, joy, and excitement. It seems to work...for a while. Charismatics fail to realize, though, that everything--various religions, meditation, exercise, drugs, alcohol, etc.--produces short-term results. No one would fall for that stuff if they didn't! This is one reason why it's dangerous to conclude that this or that teaching must be good on account of its producing results. True, the "good" results may last quite some time--perhaps years--but in the end any way save that of Scripture will disappoint and destroy.

So, my charismatic friend, I urge you to think twice about charting your life course on account of supposed supernatural experiences. Although some such experiences seem very real and good and seem to produce good results, experience must never take the driver's seat! Instead, only Scripture ought to direct us as to how to run the Christian race. Rather than using Scripture merely as a source of prooftexts to validate your special experiences, allow Scripture to test your experiences to see whether they are as good as they may appear. Especially if you're a young believer and new to charismaticism, you may think that all of your experiences are leading you in a good direction and never realize that they are in fact taking you further away from the basic truths we find in Scripture. Take care lest experience rather than Scripture teaches you how to live and what to believe!

A former charismatic,
Dave

So this is you personal opinion correct?

Perhaps too much time has gone by. Read the entire thread again to refresh your memory, Evangelist. This is not a matter of mere opinion. These are indisputably proven facts with more than sufficient documentation from these false teachers' own words - not to mention the testimony of Scripture to the contrary of what they teach.

These teachers represent a departure from the Christian faith not only historically, but Biblically. Unless God grants them repentance, you won't see a single one of them in heaven.

Yes, and everyone else in this thread except you. Have you read or considered any of the input from the others? There's enough comments and references to keep you busy for some time if you're really willing to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Evangelist,

I know that a lot of people are afraid of expressing their feelings in worship to Jesus, some have been very hurt by what might have happened to them. It is true that believers from denomination to denomination differ greatly with each other on matters of what is important. It seems that this crowd have one matter of great importance, "Jesus" They love Him and are not ashamed to be public about it.

Now before anyone gets angry with me for saying this. I do not listen to TBN broadcasts, infact I never listen to Church on TV, or the internet, but I thought to have a look a the list of their programme and found a name I know, namely Stormie Omaritian, the wife of producer Michael Omaritian, and after a time of worship she was interview. Stormie has written extensively on family prayer and has many deep and valuable insights and experiences in prayer. I found she was filled with a love and compassion of Christ, as she reached out. I have never seen her speak but I have read some of her books and my wife and I have greatly benefited from this. Prayer is fundamental to our lives as believers and she really brought that home.

Now there are some clangers in the other bits, but to be honest there is such a loving and worshipful manner in those who are there. I am not sure I am going to join Robin and his generalizations. There is a sweet mood of gentle caring and not the wild frenzied tribal orgy of heretical maniacal laughter and screaming, but just a lot of happy people for Jesus.

This the progamme I have been listening to for the last ... 37 minutes and it is ministering to my heart. Sorry, to let the team down...but I am struggling to see a need for repentance and if not they will not end up in heaven. Sorry, Robin I think you need to listen to this and change your mind.

Wednesday Apr 18, 2007
Joyce Meyer hosts Stormie Omartian, Dutch Sheets, Marilyn Hickey and Martha Munizzi in Dallas, TX.

Love,

Straw,

Your response was unfortunately so typical of those who are captivated by their "warm and fuzzy feelings" rather than being captivated and ruled by the infallible, inerrant written Word of God. The issue isn't how one "feels" when listening/watching these people but whether or not what they are teaching is BIBLICAL..... aka: TRUTH! (Jh 17:17; 2Cor 10:3-6, 11:3, 4; 1Tim 4:1, 2; 2Tim 3:1-9; 4:1-4; Gal 1:7-9) Those on TBN and countless others are teaching heresy, i.e., doctrines and practices which are contrary and even antithetical to the truth found in Scripture. Embracing these teachings inevitably leads to idolatry, blaspheme and eternal death. They are "seducing spirits" and need to be both exposed as such and avoided like the plague.


In His grace,

Jesus who? The Jesus who is our sovereign Lord, Judge, High Priest and King? Or, the Arminian and effeminate Jesus of "emotional puppy love" that begs and pleads on bended knee for a lost and totally depraved humanity to sentimentally believe in Him?

Jesus who?


One may not have it both ways. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22

Denny,

You are too kind! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> In some cases, e.g., Kenneth Copeland, his "god" and "Jesus" are nothing more than men such as we for the most part. Although these TBN Shysters use terms found in the Bible, what they teach is a far cry from what the Bible teaches. One could even call them "rapists" as they forcibly take money and goods from people by using psychological ploys and deception and harden the hearts of their blind followers.

In His grace,

Dear Sirs,
I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry. Your words are painful and yet almost macabre. You are all very brilliant theologians and have studied Systematic teachings of John Calvin, Gordon Haddon Clark and the like, but not every person is, how do I put this politely, without inciting a revolution. Not everyone is a nerdy Christian. Some just enjoy the joy of the Lord, and the peace of the Lord. They are not really into sitting down and pouring through books on theology but would much rather prefer reading a novel. Not to say they are not thinkers, but they are not geared that way. People are very different. This is the idea of the unique creation of God, He has not made us all identical, sort of like penguins. We are so different in our personalities. A farm hand might read Chaucer or Shakespeare, or Browning or Gullivers travels, but wether or not he reads Calvin, Luther, Fox, Bunyan, Spurgeon is another idea altogether. Some glean gigantic philosophical and intellectual lessons from an observation, where others might only get the most elementary idea and be completely fulfilled thereby.

Do you get it ? We are not all the same. For this difference in personality, are you willing to destroy the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of humble folks who enjoy simple faith, must all need to be complex in their faith to be happy in God. I think not!

Adopted as usual, you will pick a phrase that suits your argument and not reply intelligently to the overall thought that I am expressing and you Pilgrim will give me long quotes that you have gleaned in your deep studies of the writings of men and women of God, but none of this help, because what is really at stake is the simple truth that in Christ we are not all the same, some are of humble intelligence and are stimulated to great peace and joy by less, and such as state is a most pleasant one for them, but to expect that others should neccesarily be as you are is to not comprehend the simple joy and peace in the Holy Spirit that others enjoy who too have come to know this Saviour who will not be styled but who loves the simple and and complex and the inbetween folks like me. I do not mean compromised, but somewhere between simple joy and a need to have ones cup filled mentally with a lot as well. Surely in your life you have discovered that not all mankind are the same. A simple man might glean great joy from simply singing a psalm while he or she is a bout their work, whereas another of great intellectual prowess would prefer to listen to a recitation of the entire works of a great scholar.

I am not an idiot, but I have mastered the works of John Robbins and Gordon Clark, I can also grasp some of Michael Sudduth and Alvin Plantinga's works but when I get to people like Godel, I wince, I am lost, I am a child. Once I asked a student if they could understand the book of Romans, to which the student smartly replied, "Oh yes I understand it all." I was amazed, I have struggled with Romans and Hebrews and the longer theological books for years, not that I do not enjoy them, I just cannot absorb the whole of the proximity of their sheer profundity. I love John's Gospel, and a simpleton I once knew who still lived with his mother and was unable to be married, yet worked a good days work and got his wage, snatched at passages and could never grasp fully any passages, he was just a humble servant of God and made up for it in his joy and gentle witness of kindness. Another woman who I know would not have even know the diffence between justification and sanctification, and would certainly not have begun to build an understanding of predestination, was a kind soul who met the physical needs of suffering patients by doing massage professionally. It is this sort of person that may happily want to just sing and worship Jesus freely and has not the complexities of theological argument to find fault, who is able to enjoy simply their Lord. To accuse such a one of Arminianism, Pelagianism or whatever is cruel and unkind and will not wash well on at the judgment seat of Christ who shows not favourtism or respect of persons. To whom are we giving the chosen seats and who do we think we are to decide who will sit where. This is the Fathers decision and we should be most careful how we wet the blade of our defence against those for whom He has died, who we are not in any position to arise in judgment over. It would be very pleasant if it were agreed to never again waste bandwidth on the internet killing the testimony of those who like you but not as smart, love and cherish the Saviour. Trust me on this one, you guys are in a dark place here. Just ease up and think about it before you come back with more snaps and snarls calling light darkness without having even so much as considered that some are His.

Peace,