The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Soft as an Oreo

Soft as an Oreo.

When I was a child, thirteen to be precise, I had my first experience of what if feels like when a large crowd of people name call you to the point of no return.

I had just been placed in boarding school and no sooner had my surname been uncovered than a crowd of boarder one class higher set to modifying it to contain the most foul of interpretations you can imagine. At first it was just one person and I cringed, then two and so on until crowd was chanting my name. (Now today I would have taken a bow as such attention.) But I had been through considerable trauma as a child and this just pushed me over the edge. Instanty I siezed the first boy in the crowd and punched him out. To my amazement the crowd dispersed and I was never troubled by that name ever again.

I got into rugby, and eventually ended up being one of the tough guys. No one so much as dared to pick a fight, for fear of the team would make mince meat out of them.

In my sixteenth year, I was at an all night party and it went on until the wee hours. Eventually we just crashed all over the place (it was a warm night) I attempted to get to sleep and suddenly I was slapped in the face by a cucumber sandwich (now I had cucumber on white bread) and I jumped up and headed in the direction from which the projectile had erupted and issued forth a warning of sorts, and was again pelted with one. I called to the darkness that the person who did this should show themselves for I was going to wack them. They came out and to my amazement was a really tall person with a crowd of buddies. I seized the element of suprise grabbed the shirt and popped my eager wielder of evil sandwiches right on the donk (nose) He went down like a sack of potatoes.

In my eighteenth year, I was now a little lamb for Jesus a work associate who did not have the Spirit of Christ, set to driving me to the edge of my control, by using me as a punch bag every lunch time. The transformation in my character was so great that no matter how he pounded me I did not retaliate, just trusting in the Lord. After a season of this torment, one day I just announced. "If you do that once again you are going to be sorry." Now I was fairly fluid in the martial arts and he just never saw it coming, I just gave him a straight jab to the nose and broke it and the lumbering giant, sort of like Goliath to me then, came crashing down.

I am not sure what is wrong with me these days. I guess I have gone soft inside like an Oreo. I have been called any manner of name and it just does not effect me like it did.

I was called a Calvinist, double header by Roman Catholics. An Arminian by Calminians. A Semi Pelagian by Reformed Christians, and lately I have been called a heretic. You know something it should bother me, but it does'nt because one day Jesus told me that He loves me and I am like an Oreo, hard on the outside but soft on the inside. I just want people to know this wonderful love of Christ, and I don't mind what sort of names they come up with to describe my kind of person, but right now I am having tea and I realize that the reason for so much of this hatred in Christians is because the have a spirit of accusation. Why? Cause they don't know they are loved.

Remember the story of Hook, when the little girls pipes up, "He really needs a Mommy". I do think the real problem why folks get so into accussing is because they just don't really have that assurance that Jesus loves them. So I want to say to you if you are a Christian, "Jesus loves you" and if you are not yet one and are thinking about it, "Jesus loves you". Why? Cause He really, really does.

I would like to learn if I should maybe change my song and say, "Jesus loves some and hates others" I guess it must be something to do with growning old, just want folks to get along and stop fighting with each other. A little bit of love goes a long way these days, huh?

Is this not an "accusation" directed at many here on the Highway?


The reason you are being called these things is because the shoe fits. You are a walking bundle of inconsistentcy and duplicity. Now, you want us to lay our Scripture aside and just cuddle you?

Wake up straw, because that's not going to happen here on the Highway. There's just too many people here that are dedicated to the seriousness and life giving Grace of God's words in Scripture.

This is more than likely my last communication with you.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

I don't know - I don't think Jesus loves us on our terms.

He loves His own - His sheep - it's personal, experiential, not general and surface-level.

It's the ones who truly need and desire Him who will experience comfort from the idea that Jesus loves them while most others could care less.

What is that verse? We love Him because He first loved us OR nobody can come to Me unless the father draws Him OR many are called but few are chosen.

In reality not everyone loves, seeks or desires Jesus - why is that?

Straw, you can tell everyone Jesus loves you but don't be suprised when few respond.

Just try to refrain from knocking anybody out! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" />

Dear Adopted,

You do seem to have a way of making everything I write apply to yourself. I thought we had crossed that bridge a long time ago, but I was wrong cause here you are again stirring the old pot of controversy and now what are you adding to it ? Let me see is it a cold prickly comment ? Yes, another one of your fabulous prickly pears, yummy. It is a pity you are so perdictable, or else I might have taken you seriously.

I agree, it would be unthinkable to lay aside the Good Book for just long enough to consider the path of the good Samaritan. I am sure cuddling is beyond you anyhow.

I am awake, and I am aware that nothing is going on on the Highway, for it is part of cyber-heaven and you can be anyone you want to be. You can spew forth accusations and hide behind elaborate dogma to protect you from being accountable for breaking down the ministries of other Christians. It is shameful, but then that is what is going here, isn't it ? <rhetoric!

Now I was told that you were a friendly person, and that I would get used to you. But, you have chased me around this board and I am getting a little suspicious with your latest comment about 'cuddle you' ew! Please don't cuddle me I don't want to get all your thorns.

I am sure that you imagine that everyone is just like you, 'dedicated to SERIOUSNESS' ouch, do you ever have fun ? <rhetoric! I appreciate that you are different to me and that you are what is called a dogmatic scripturalist, and just so you don't feel too lonely, "I WAS ONE TOO", but you know Denny people grow and they change and at some point they discover God is a God of love, and that it is not a bad thing to know this love before you get to old and bitter.

You have said many times that you are going to leave off replying to me, but I guess you still want a little of what I got to give, some of that warm fuzzy that makes the world go hummmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Patient,

I'm not one to get too involved in debates on this forum - I am more of a journeyman - when discussing theology people tend to come off as cold or judgemental or self-righteous.

In reality straw probably most everyone on this board (who have more than an intellectual knowledge of Reformed doctrine - but also experiential) will confess they have been humbled and that their sins and propensity for evil has been exposed. These are the ones who have been made to feel their helpless spiritual depravity and who have called upon the Lord for mercy and deliverance - this is where true love & mercy is experienced by the believer. When, despite the fact that all our righteousness is as filthy rags, Jesus may look upon us with mercy and forgivess and out of a selfless love died for our sins and rescues us out of the abyss of sin and corruption.

Straw, Jesus is love but God is sovereign - those who labor and are heavy laden will not be turned away because God is mecry to those that come to Him with a sincere, contrite heart.

But many won't nor do they understand the severity of sin.

You don't have to believe us from an intellectual POV but hopefully you will experience a little of what I'm talking about!

Check out this commentary! http://www.mountzion.org/fgb/Spring97/FgbSP2-97.html

AJC,

I have this idea that Jesus is sort of like an alien <not an actual alien, but like one. He is this meek and lowly Lord who has gave out His body to the accusations, and bullying, nails, thorns and eventually allowed himself to be spread out upon the wood he created and pounded by men he designed and hold together. It must have been quite a horrific vision for Him to watch those whom He lovingly constructed become savage beasts, crying out blood thirstily for His life. I know that He was to achieve a great victory by it, but we know that Jesus expressed deep emotions on many, many events in His life here.

He was a soft on the inside Messiah, and He proved it by crying out to the Father to save Him with tears and crieds to the Father. Jesus was love incarnate, the greatest love that has ever walked this sod. He came to His own and they rejected Him. He chose men who swore undying faithfulness, they forsake the Shepherd of the flock and in the end, He who created all this was alone on a cross with a devoted mother and a the beloved disciple, not much of a farwell committee, for the man who had single handedly turned Jerusalem upside down with His words and His actions. He was despised and rejected and we assumed Him smitten of God.

I wish that it was so easy to say the ones who need Him and desire Him who will gain most comfort, hardly most who rejected Him like the Chief of sinners was bowled out by His love and blinded. Infact Scripture makes it plain that He will be found of those who sought Him not. Scripture reveals that none of seek Him, but He came to seek and save that which was lost. Right?

It is not that we loved Him...that is obvious. Certainly the only way that we do come to Christ is if the Father reveals Him in us. Sure many are called and few are chosen, but many will sit down with Isaac and Jacob and Abraham in the Kingdom.

I think you have a point, but it is not everyone, it is NO-ONE. Read Romans, the only one's who come to Him are those whom the Father brings and the JOY is that He will not loose one of them. Praise God!

Jesus loved us but it did not stop Him going to the cross when He was rejected, it fired His resolve to do what must be done to heal hearts that are so cold and lonely. Jesus love you.

Hahahahaha...someone finally got it. Love is a knock out punch and when you get it you will know it for sure. It is hard after that to just keep being all prickly, you just feel soft on the inside, just like an Oreo. mmmmm

'These are the ones who have been made to feel their helpless spiritual depravity and who have called upon the Lord for mercy and deliverance - this is where true love & mercy is experienced by the believer' (AJC)

AJC,
I do not doubt this. It is the first step in the doctrine of Christ, but we need to go on to maturity in love. This love has breadth, and length and depth. I did not take advantage of this as the years passed. Oh, I studied and had all my t's crossed and my i's dotted, but there was something missing, that next step that is so vital if we want to really be salt. Drawing near to Jesus and really knowing this love that makes it all worthwhile. I found though that a lot of the dogmatic idea I had melted in His presense and I did indeed find Him to be meek and lowly of heart, and giving us great rest. To share this love has a price attatched to it, one is going to find that firstly it is not always explained in the creeds though they are cleverly thought out and dare I say some seem to think they are inspired writ. (Not just R.C's have this problem, it is a biggie in the Reformed camp with a push, push, push...SOLA SCRIPTURA..and yet they spend more time reading commentaries, that exposing their minds and hearts to the truth.) Repenting and acknowledging the truth is a good start, but moving on to maturity and being willing to cast off every weight, and the sin that so easily besets us, is another tale all together. So much about what I have learned from theological papers reeks of preconception, and one really wonders if they knew God or just knew a lot about Him. To know about God, is very different from being known by Him. A shocking reality check for some when they put the dogma aside and go down humbly and ask to be taught by the Master. It is hard sometime to jump right back up when you have to face the mirror of His glory. To often I hear the Bible line used as a whipping post to avoid exposure to the heart of what matters. Christ. Obviously, this is not all. But when there is this continual rejection of just about everyone that does not agree with said dogma, something inside of me just dies over and over again. How many times should I say 70x7 before it is apparent that my voice has gone hoarse.

When I shared like this I was called a Mystic and given reams of sermons to read, I read BB Warfield and though it was good, he had so much bitterness towards certain Christians that his argument went sour in my mouth. So what if I am a Christian Mystic who loves Jesus, and sure for this I will be made to sit on the bench or find myself another place to share my thoughts. I appreciate this and this thread is my last. I am not alone, for it seems there are many, many theologians including Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray who have been given the cold shoulder, it is sad that all this forum seems to do is find ways to hurt those who gave so much to this world in the form of love and tenderness. No wonder Jesus is taking so long to return. The need to accept I know is in my desire too, I want to love these cranky old dogmaholics, or Clarkaholics, but what do I do they do not want to be nice and every time I mention something that blesses me I am given a list of people I have to read. Reading them just confuses me more and more and more, until eventually I am ready to pop.

I woke up one morning after reading all these creeds and each one was different, so very very very different...I was confused and I just layed it before GOD, I felt a little like Joseph Smith and said, "God which one is the right one?" I got a most strange reply from Him. "If you have not the Spirit of Christ you are none of His." I wondered around thinking about what God had said, looked at the passage and for the first time everything snapped into place then verses just came like a stream all about I and the Father are One etc. I understood what God was saying, and I no longer felt any desire to read a creed again. Oh, bless the Lord for His wisdom in helping me to find rest to my soul and it was in Jesus Christ. I only hope that this statement will not bring further flame but I strongly doubt it.

Sincerely,

What do you think about John the Baptists comment to the Pharasees and Saddusees? "You generation of vipers..." Matt.3:7

Tom

that's a good point Tom - or when Jesus went on an endless tirade against the Pharasies, He did not try to win them over, He just declared you will not believe becasue you are not my sheep.

straw, we should not exhibit arrogance toward you - but we feel strongly that we are speaking the truth. If we can reach you without being arrogant or dismissive these discussions would be more fruitful. However, if nobody fails to see it you're way - don't take it hard and forgive our tone. We do care about your soul and want to lead you to truth but we can't force you to share our pespective but understand (and Pilgrim will tell you!) if you are relying on your own abilities to choose or follow or cooperate with Jesus without being Regenrated first there lies a major problem - that's where the concern lies - but we should express that concern with compassion and not judgement!

Peace to you Straw!

God Bless!

AC

Straw,

I respect the sincerity/testimony of your last post. You make some intersting points. Some do not get as hung up on theology and doctrine. Sometimes I feel I need to spend less time focusing on the opinions and commentaries of others and more time with the Word. All things considered I do believe Reformed exegesis provides the most truthful & accurate analysis of Scriptures.

If you're an Augustine guy I have a great book to recommend but if not forget it!

peace,

AC

AC,

I am speechless. Truthfully, I was about to pack it in and just go solo <pun intended. Thank-you so much for your kind words. Once again I am speechless. I agree not everyone is hung up on theology and doctrine. I was challenged once as to why I became a Christian and replied that I had nothing left to lose. (having lost everything) The very angry person informed me that I had to want eternal life, but the truth is I never worried about Origin of the Species, whether or not the Bible was true or not and all the classical things dealt with in apologetics. They never worried me for from a very early age, I was consciously aware of Jesus. At eleven I sang in a Church choir and just really loved the words about Jesus. Whenever hymns were sung I would sing them like I believed them. Crazy but I never had all the stuff that I keep getting told unbelievers have to straddle in order to come to faith, it was a gradual transition and then an explosive revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, which lasted for nearly 12 days. I was completely blown away as I stood looking at the sun one morning and realized that Jesus had made it...etc. (I was told by numerous apologetics, that my testimony is subjective and therefore inadmissable as proof of the existence of God. I wondered if that was true it would rule out a considerable chunk of the Bible...but that is another story.)

I know that John Calvin brought much in the way of systematic study of the Scriptures but I still battle to have it so clinical and cold. In the end the Holy Spirit is the one who opens our eyes and hearts to the Scriptures, and certainly it is not beyond him to open up our eyes at a concert while listening to Ingaddadavida by Iron Butterfly, or whilst watching Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien. I just think that all this Sola Scriptura stuff is so restricting and in many way blocks out a gigantic library of testimony. The essentially hateful ideas that are expressed towards Charismatic or Pentecostals because they are closer to the Roman Catholics in the way they are embrassing other religions is a deep frustration to me. I wonder where this is all headed if we are going to close our minds and not see that the word of the Lord is also written on subway walls.

Sorry, for more grief. I do not expect you to reply, it was just more of the same. Thank-you kindly and yes, I have a book by Augustine that I plan to read, 'The Confessions' the one that I am looking for is his, 'Retractions', but if you have something else that you think I could benefit from I would happily appreciate you sharing that with me. I have written a lot of stuff here, but the truth is your words have so stimulated me and your kindness has knocked me out.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" /> Thanks, I need it!

I would like you to reply to my last post, but I thought I would respond to something you said.


The systematic study of the Scriptures is in no way clinical and cold. Yes it can be if all one is studying it for is knowledge itself, or for that matter just so one can argue the Scriptures.
But if one studies it as 2 Tim 3:16-17 says, then God becomes more and more evident in that person's life.

The Bible has many checks and balances for the Christian to live by. For example it tells us to remove the log from our own eye, before we remove the splinter from someone else’s eye. Yet, it also tells us to rebuke, where rebuke is needed.
In this way, it makes it so we don't become self righteous and even our rebuke is motivated by love. Never the less, sometimes the most unloving thing to do is withhold rebuke where it is clearly needed.
This is evident in a few of the threads you participated in. For instance, it is clearly evident that Word of Faith teachers are teaching heresy and leading many astray.
Yet you don't seem to acknowledge even that.
What they are doing in some aspects, is no different than why John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Most of us on the Highway, would like nothing better than for Word of Faith false teachers to repent and turn to the one true God.

I would like to recommend a book to you by JI Packer called 'Knowing God'.

Tom

Indeed,

The goal of studying the Scriptures isn't just to accumulate more cold knowledge of mere fact, but to become like Him. The Law is an elucidation of the demands of love. It is a picture of what love looks like; what I ought to look like; what Jesus looks like.

Also, by showing us the depth of what Jesus accomplished for us in His substitutionary sinless life, atoning death, and resurrection, we are made more grateful and gratefulness should make us soft hearted toward others.

When a person or teaching makes light of Christ, or impugns the sovereignty, love, and grace of God by adding new requirements to salvation, by suggesting that Christ's work was "not enough - we must add our own to it," or by subscribing to a completely different Jesus - not the sinless, eternal Son of God but a "lesser god" or "no more the son of God than you or I," it's okay to get one's dander up. When His precious work and word is cheapened by those who either don't understand or who think they can use His name and legacy for personal gain or even those who hate Him, then those of us who love Him and His word are supposed to contend for the truth (Jude 3). Not just to be argumentative nor to defend our selves or our own doctrinal position, but to oppose "those who turn the grace of God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord (Jude 4)."

That's not "cold, dead, doctrinaire theology." It's passion for God. It comes from hearts that have been softened by His love - and from transformed minds hardened against deception by the discipline of study.

Straw,

the reason I like Augustine is becasue he combines the experiential with the exegesis. Confessions is a goody and it's funny you mention Retractationes becasue I've wanted to get my hands on that one for a while but can't find it anywhere.

The great book I want to recommend is "The Triumph of Grace (Augustines's writings on Salvation)" by N.R. Needham

As for Calvin, you may be more turned off with the system known as 'Calvinism' (TULIP) which is an oversimplification of the essence of scriptures and Calvin's teachings.

Mr. Needham criticizes the term 'Limited Atonement' and critically compares it to the idea of 'Limited Heaven' because not everyone goes there.

Straw, I hate to recommend you do more homework - but read Needham's book!!! You won't regret it!!!

Thanks Tom. I am no John the Baptist or Appollos. I certainly am not unaware of the doctrinal overkill of the word of faith movement. However, over balances are like sicknesses in the body, before one goes for the knife, one needs to do a proper prognosis. Why was there a word of faith overbalance ? What can we learn ? RC tradition is dominantly 'word of love' - It is not wrong for us to obey Jesus' command to love one another. One might call SDA 'word of hope' and Brethren 'word of fundamentalism' ... as I said, I am no Church History expert, but I do know that in my own life when there are over balances, or sickness, I need to find the root or the cause and discover that carefully so that I do not catch those germs again. To merely take a mercenary stance on everything that is contrary to what we perceive to be the correct behaviour, is to miss the opportunity to grow as a body. It is true that understanding the intrinsic value of faith, and hope, and love and the greatest of these is... heresy hunting. I think we are in danger of becoming like the one's we judge. Currently we have a New Reformation on the go, with it's ideas of conversation, dialogue and emergence (a sickness ?) and on the flip side ecumenism, reductionism, dumbing down the doctrines to have some form of common ground, people saying let's just concentrate on Jesus and forget about all this traditional stuff or baggage which has kept us ineffectual in the global village aka. Warren's World Peace Plan. These are overbalances/sickness...BUT what are they saying...are they saying that we have become tasteless, have we lost our savour, have we lost the vision of the mission to reach out and be healing to the world... maybe not in such a subversive a way as certain rock stars who are looking to heal those who are starving and dying of aids, or certain fringe rejected groups which are being reached by a over the top idea ... where doctrine is almost being thrown out in favour of Spirituality. I am not saying go to be with heresy, but becareful that we are not found encasing our brothers and sisters in yet another IRON MAIDEN. (Inquisitional Torchure Machine) I.T.M.

Moderation,