The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Gods Character??

I agree Pilgrim. That is why I said according to man's view. "Good" is a word used with qualifications. My practical point was simply stating the elect sin just as the reprobate, and times even more terribly. But this is digressing the OT.

I will disagree that the unregenerate have no desire to do good. Matthew 7 and Simon Magus are 2 examples that express some form of desire to serve the Lord. Even the one soil who grew for a while had a desire to do good. The reprobate sit in the pews every Lord's Day. Unless one has an "electometer" hahaha.

Perhaps this should be another thread. Of Which could drive some discussion on the desire of the reprobate to serve the Lord in some capacity. Even Paul, a pharisee of pharisee thought he was serving the Lord prior to his conversion in Damascus.

Blessings

Joe

Joe K

So do you agree that the seemingly good of the unregenerate is not good from a spiritual point of view.

Thanks, William





As a passing note after listening to a sermon by Herman Hoeksema on total depravity I had to compensate by listening Robert Schuller about positive thinking. I feel much better now!


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Yes William. God does not approve of any 'good' they do. Just as the elects Good is still tainted with sin

Johan correctly pointed out I appeared to contradict myself. Apologies. Sorry about that.

The phrase "bend wills" was originally used to imply the idea that God forces people to do things against their will, which would absolve them of responsibility. I meant to say that God never does this.

But He is on record as hardening some hearts and softening others. He does this without removing responsibility for actions. He also controls everything through providence. These two actions I referred to with the word "manipulate". Definitely a poor word to use.

Hardening some hearts and softening others may seem unfair, yet scripture declares it outright:

rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God's providential rulership gives Him absolute control over everything and yet preserves our responsibility in all we do. God hardened Pharoh's heart, yet Pharoh will be held guilty for his actions. God is not the author of sin, and yet He can and does use sinful people and their actions for His purposes.

I suspect that you would be far better off reading the reformers on this subject. Edwards, Calvin, and Luther did devoted much effort to developing the doctrine. Since it is a deep subject it is worth taking the time to read something that develops the doctrine thoroughly.

Scripture does support the notion that God does bend wills, maipulates, or whatever word you want to use. I have no issue saying 'forces' people to do what is not their natural inclination. For if He did not bend, or compel, noone would seek Him and I thank Him for this. Just as He leaves people in their own lusts and withdraws His grace. The only answers given in the writ is "WHo are we to reply against Him" And it is according to His good pleasure.

For if He did not bend the chosens wills, they would continue to hate God and their neighbor.

Joe,

I would have to disagree with your view, i.e., God "bends" the will of men so that they will do that which is "not their natural inclination". There is nowhere in Scripture, that I have been able to find, that this is true. On the contrary, the ONLY reason ANYONE "seeks Christ", i.e., come to Him with a true faith is that God recreates the will, aka: regeneration. In regeneration the nature is enlivened, thus changing one's "disposition" which then directs the will.

Can you provide some Scriptural evidence to support your view that God violates the will of men so that they think and/or do that which is contrary to their nature?

In His grace,

Here are some articles from the Canons of Dordt that I think applies to this discussion.


Hope it sheds some light on the issue under discussion.

Johan

Violating the will of man is too dramatic of a phrase to use. I do not like it, therefore do not equate bending or compelling man to equal this. Regeneration is not taking the old nature and just making it better, it is recreating something that is dead and then is alive. Perhaps it is semantics with us, I know you subscibe to the complete sov of God in all things Pilgrim. This is what equate wiuth bending or compelling man against their will. There is no other way to look at it.

HC Q #5

Question 5. Canst thou keep all these things perfectly?
Answer. In no wise; [c] for I am prone by nature to hate God and my neighbor. [d]

[a]: Rom. 3:20
[b]: Luke 10:27
[c]: Rom. 3:10; 1John 1:8
[d]: Rom. 8:7, Tit. 3:3


Question 8. Are we then so corrupt that we are wholly incapable of doing any good, and inclined to all wickedness?
Answer. Indeed we are; [f] except that we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. [g]

[a]: Gen. 1:31
[b]: Gen. 1:26,27; Col. 3:10, Eph. 4:24
[c]: Eph. 1:6; 1Cor. 6:20
[d]: Gen 3:6; Rom. 5:12,18,19
[e]: Psa. 51:5; Gen. 5:3
[f]: Gen. 6:5; Job 14:4; Job 15:14,16
[g]: John 3:5; Eph. 2:5


"But this is not what he [the Assyrian] intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. "Are not my commanders all kings?" he says. . . . "As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols, kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria--shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?" Isa. 10:7-11

22 For seven days they celebrated with joy the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because the LORD had filled them with joy by changing the attitude of the king of Assyria, so that he assisted them in the work on the house of God, the God of Israel. ezra

25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. Dan 4

“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” Php 2:13.


Unless I am missing something here pilgrim, I do not understand the difficulty in saying God bends the will of man continuously. I am not a psycologist, therefore will nto get into a discussion of what the will consists of and all that. To me, it means what a man desires. Therefore if one desires what he once hated and hates what he once loved, his will if bent, compelled etc etc etc. All by the power of God.

Perhaos we differ slightly on regeneration. When God says "I will give them a NEW heart" This means exactly as it says. It does not mean I will take their old one and make it better. It is rotten, not just sick

God said to Abimelech, "I also withheld thee from sinning against Me; therefore suffered I thee not to touch her" (Gen. 20:6).

http://www.the-highway.com/pink_freewill.html

Joe,

It may be semantics, but I tend to think not. Why? because of the highlighted statement in your above quote. God does not, in fact cannot, "compel man against his will". Everything, everywhere and in all circumstances which man decides (wills) is according to his nature. A bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit. The "will" is not some autonomous faction within man that acts on its own. But rather, the will is the "servant" of the mind and affections. Edwards is probably best known for dealing with this subject in great detail which is the most effect apologetic against ALL non-Calvinist (biblical) views, e.g., "free-will". Your view appears to be simply the flip-side of free-will, which says that man can do that which is contrary to his nature. Substituting God as the proximate cause of a man's decisions doesn't change things. In either case, man is given the ability to choose that which is contrary to his nature, i.e., the "will" acts independently of the mind and affections.

Re: regeneration. Here is another area where we appear to disagree. You appear to make regeneration a "creation" of a new nature rather than the historic doctrine wherein it is said that the nature is re-created. Man only has ONE nature. So in regeneration, there is not a killing of the original corrupt nature and a ex nihilo creation of a totally new nature. What happens is that THE corrupt nature is re-created, i.e., it is changed. Where a spiritual, God ward disposition was "dead", it is resurrected (made alive) thus positively effecting how the will acts. Paul eludes to this when he says to "put off the old man. . . and put on the new man", i.e., the residual affects of the original corrupt nature are to be denied control and full reign of the new nature (disposition) allowed.

It is through secondary causes that God directs the steps (decisions) of men according to their nature (disposition). But He never forces man to act contrary to that nature; only according to that nature. Johan's quotations from the Canon's of Dordt teach exactly this. God may withhold/restrain the unregenerate from sinning, as was the case with Abimelech. But God does not nor can He force any man to sin or to do that which is right IF it is contrary to his nature. God Himself cannot do that which is contrary to His nature and again, likewise, He does not and cannot force His image bearers to act contrary to their nature.

In His grace,

Let us look at what scripture says instead of my words;

Luke 14:23
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

There is the same word I used. COMPEL

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain

a) by force, threats, etc.

b) by permission, entreaties, etc.

c) by other means

Joe,

Honestly.... is this how you have arrived at this view that God "compels" men to do that which is contrary to their nature? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

The text has nothing to do with GOD compelling anyone but rather it is speaking of men being counseled to strongly persuade other men. This is exactly what Paul wrote also: 2Cor 5:11a
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;". This is dealing with the "outward call", i.e., the preaching of the Gospel. And the only way that such persuasion can be effective is if a man's nature is changed, i.e., he is "born again of the Spirit. This is regeneration which effects the "inward call", aka: irresistible grace.

The natural resistance to God and holiness is insurmountable as can be seen here:

Stephen was referring to men in their natural state who resist the "outward calling" of the Spirit through the instrumentality of prophets and preachers who bring the Gospel to their hearing. Such men in their natural state CANNOT be compelled to come to Christ in faith. Dead men can't be compelled to do anything, espcially exercise faith which doesn't even exist. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

So again, do you have any passage from Scripture which demonstrates that God can and does "compel man to act contrary to his will"??

In His grace,

You seem to have a long answer for everything pilgrim. Never the less, I have nothng better to do at this moment other than mow my lawn so I will embark on your goose chase.


If you doubt the compelling force of Gods regeneration effectual call which makes one who is unwilling totally willing then I dont know how else to put my thoughts into words. I can cite scripture after scripture but you will say it doesnt mean compel in any way against ones natural inclination. Perhaps we need to define terms.

What is the will according to you?

To me it is how man chooses a or b. What drives this decision is ones desire. I think you will agree with me thus far. Man in his natural unregenerate state is unwilling to come right? There has no desire to make his will choose to come. What makes thee to differ then after regeneration? IT is the whole person is changed completely. I dont know about this recreating "historic'defination. But I see scripture speaks of a complete transformation in the elect when touched by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not just taking a sick heart and making it better, but when scripture says "New" heart or new spirit

"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh

I take it for exactly as it says. He does not repair the old heart, He gives a new heart and spirit

Jeremiah 24:7 I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD; and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.

Calvin said in the instituttes:

If God is said to help our weake will then somethng would be left up to us, but when it is said He makes the will, then it is all God.....


This means nothign else other than the Lord, directs, bends, governs our heart as His posession.......


And as far as the woedding feast, I disagree with your opinion. Servant is used in the singular. Which can only signify the Holy SPirit, not man.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Verse 21 says they were "BROUGHT" in. Not asked if they were willing. And when compel is used it basically maens the same thing.

Pilgrim:

I think I see where we differ. AS I look back i could have been a tad clearer. THe elect never go kicking and screaming to Christ once regenerated. And the unregenerate will never go kicking and screaming to hell. My point is old nature vs new nature. God's irresistable grace does compel, force the old nature to succumb to this new spirit. Where the new creation becomes willing in the day of salvation. Becasue he now desires it. At the point of regeneration, the old will is 'forced' per se by the power of God to respond to the call becasue it is completely changed.

Calvin:

two things are clearly taught, viz., that the Lord both corrects, or rather destroys, our depraved will, and also substitutes a good will from himself. In as much as it is prevented by grace, I have no objection to your calling it a handmaid; but in as much as when formed again, it is the work of the Lord, it is erroneous to say, that it accompanies preventing grace as a voluntary attendant. Therefore, Chrysostom is inaccurate in saying, that grace cannot do any thing without will, nor will any thing without grace, (Serm. de Invent. Sanct. Crucis;) as if grace did not, in terms of the passage lately quoted from Paul, produce the very will itself.



I still disagree that it is a recreation of some sort. I dont know if you mean going back to original adam or what. I believe is is a complete transplant of the heart. Like I mentioned above, it is not giving medicine to the old heart, but actually taking it out and replacing it with a new one.

I hope I am more clear now.

Powerfully bends is a good phrase.


[color:"0000FF"]CANONS OF DORDRECHT

THIRD AND FORTH HEADS OF DOCTRINE



Article 16.[/color] But as man by the fall did not cease to be a creature, endowed with understanding and will, nor did sin which pervaded the whole race of mankind, deprive him of the human nature, but brought upon him depravity and spiritual death; so also this grace of regeneration does not treat men as senseless stocks and blocks, nor take away their will and its properties, neither does violence thereto; but spiritually quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">bends it</span>(the will); that where carnal rebellion and resistance formerly prevailed, a ready and sincere spiritual obedience begins to reign; in which the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consist. Wherefore unless the admirable author of every good work wrought in us, man could have no hope of recovering from his fall by his own free will, by the abuse of which, in a state of innocence, he plunged himself into ruin.


William

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William,

Again, thanks for quoting from one of the standard doctrinal statements of the Reformed Churches, all of which embraced the truth that the will of man; both unregenerate and regenerate, is not violated. God works His good pleasure in conjunction with the nature of individuals.

In His grace,